As an innocent bystander I dont see how both of these statements can be true.
Surely they must have shown causal probability between E2 and breast cancer for SERMs to be a viable and approved treatment option?
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Can I just say this is a super weird thread.
Incredibly informative, as someone not yet on TRT but probably soon on TRT this is awesome. But im having to sift through so much pointless online shouting to get at it.
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@increasemyt this practice will get phased out now that new literature is being presented. Just like they used to do androgen deprivation therapy to treat prostate cancer and now theyāre treating it with testosterone.
I know you love to throw all these links to studies. I have a request (you can provide either one):
- A study that demonstrates when a woman was given estrogen it caused harm
- A study that demonstrates when a man was given estrogen it caused harm
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What do you mean getting phased out? Itās on TV right now, I hear the commercial everyday.
They are not phasing it out they are using it in conjunction.
OK 
My takeaways thus far are this:
1 - High E2 has been unfairly demonised and used as a scapegoat and the āgeneral knowledgeā of high E2 being the cause of cycle symptoms is simply incorrect.
2 - Rather than coming with detrimental side effects high E2 (in the presence of high T) actually seems to come with some benefits, and could be the driver for some of the improvements seen on TRT
3 - Its probably dangerous, or at least clumsy, to make such an absolute statement as that there is no upper limit for E2.
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@Pinkylifting there is no upper limit to E2. This does not imply that E2 can reach 10000. You have to understand that a portion of T is converting to E2 so it can only get so high.
Listen man all of the things you are saying about E2 are correct. And for years we and others that understood this have also tried to explain this.
The first people to notice were the bodybuilders, they figured out anastrozole could inhibit the gains on their cycle. You or I wouldnāt know anything about E2 if it wasnāt for these body-builders.
But that does not mean that too much is perfectly healthy for you. So thats where your confused, you are absolutely right about E2, but you are wrong when it comes to these crazy high levels what you donāt realize is that this is not what your literature proves. All of these benefits of estrogen were proven when E was within physiological range, not when they were in supra-physiological range.
It can also be the cause of high BP too, I have seen edema in some guys so bad you can see their boot lace marks when they take them off.`
Edit: oh and leg clots
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I will weigh in on the HCT argument. These are not my thoughts these are the thoughts of THE expert on androgen therapy. Dr Morgantaler w/ Harvard. He was talking about this stuff in the early 2000ās
I think the confusion in the literature @anon18050987 is that there is correlation with high HCT and heart attack and stroke, but that does not translate to TRT polycythemia induced heart attack or stroke.
We have always modeled our guidelines around Dr Morgantalerās concerns and objectives, and he says if it gets over 55% that is a concern but even then he is apprehensive about it being a proven concern.
Dr Morgantaler STRESSES that everything he talks about is in the context of levels within physiological range, you go well above that and all bets are off on the research.
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@increasemyt again your ranges for E2 are coming from BASELINE MEN not on TRT. Youāre raising their testosterone levels but not allowing E2 to follow. So youāre artifically raising one and then trying to artificially lower the other one that needs to rise with it. Guys with E2 at 60 tend to have totals around 1800. Guys with E2 at 50 tend to have totals around 1500. Supraphysiological you say! This was considered normal just a few years ago. The ranges keep dropping year after year. A man who today has normal total testosterone of 1500 is a freak of nature. A few short years ago he would have been normal.
Again you cannot compare men with high E2 that have low testosterone levels to men on TRT. If you do you just arenāt understanding it. If I see a man with E2 of 50 and total T of 180 Iāll know heās obese and Iāll know he is unhealthy. Then everything gets blamed on the fact that his E2 is 50? Itās preposterous! His E2 is 50 BECAUSE he is obese. Give this man testosterone and he vastly improves. His E2 is STILL 50ā¦ or perhaps has gotten higherā¦ and he is improving drastically. How is he improving if we havenāt started to block it? Libido and erections are coming back, visceral fat is being lost, energy is improved, etc. Do we now tell them that they suddenly have to start taking an AI because their āE2 is too highā?
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@increasemyt totally in agreement in regards to hematocrit. Not to mention, the risk of TRT induced erythrocytosis turning into polycythemia vera (a bone marrow cancer) is near ZERO.
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Brother these docs are not expensive. I was looking st defy and year one is about 250 a month. Year two is about 200 a month. Thatās With TRT and thyroid added .
If we look at the docs in the group who charge fees annually the math comes out to 125 to 175 a month. This includes consults anytime and direct communication with the doc and staff. You also have blood tests included. You only pay for the medicine at one of three pharmacies they trust. Do price matching and itās cheap and competitively priced.
Where did you hear that itās that expensive you think only guys with serious cash can afford them?
@anon18050987 we are just not seeing this issue whatsoever with all the guys we deal with. We just arenāt. I donāt know what else to say.
dbossa, can you message me with how to find your FB group?
@gmr99 send me a PM on Facebook. Look up Danny Bossa. Youāll see a photo of me and my wife.
This is why the better approach, in our opinion, is to understand there will be some elevation, but not let it get out of control, kind of like estradiol
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Cream is 55$ Ish for 2 clicks am and Pm. Itās 40 when we do total 3 clicks a day. Thatās with shipping and taxes.
How long have you been on the cream? Thatās rhetorical so you donāt have to answerā¦I know that is hasnāt been that longā¦(see? My memory works!!! Maybe thatās because my E2 isnāt sky high? lol)
When youāve been on it for a few years, let me know if you start seeing absorption issues, or any other unforeseen side effectsā¦
Iāve already told @dbossa that I would be open to suggestionsā¦He never follewd through with a recommendation for a doc that would be willing to raise my Free T levels to 40+ in Montana USA (or anywhere in the USA that would treat patients residing in Montana) using injectable test. To be fair, thereās a reason for thatā¦
These docs like being able to practice with a license!!!
Iāll trust the cream after you guys have been the guinea pigs for more than a few monthsā¦
Alsoā¦answer thisā¦
What does it cost for an initial consult with Dr. Nichols?
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LMAO!!
Just to be clear, not for you but for anyone else who may have misunderstood that post (and thank you getting the jest btw)ā¦
I have no desire to push my Free T that high. I still think itās a dangerous propositionā¦The request was basically a āfools errandā. No credible Dr in the USA that I know of will prescribe thisā¦
I havenāt forgotten about you @bmbrady77. I have received no response to my request so far.