Ben Stein's 'Expelled'

[quote]rugbyhit wrote:
macro evolution has never been observed at any biological level. if you want to incorrectly include what is often referred to as micro evolution/genetic drift, then yes this has been observed, but it not evolution in the sense that genetic information is added.

again, if you have info to the contrary, please share.[/quote]

You will never observe “macro evolution” as you think of it, because macro-evolution is just a lot of micro evolution.

To think that a lot of small steps cannot cover a great distance is insanity.

wow, this thread didn’t get silly till about the second page.

to rugbyhit,

you seem to support this creationist stuff, please respond to my posts. if all you are trying to do is rip on evolution, that is fine, i agree the theory has many flaws (so does Newtonian physics, which is fundamentally wrong about everything it says, but people are friendly enough to that too). The fact that you pull from creationist web sites though seems to suggest your main motivation for rejecting evolution isn’t the facts, but some faith.

Here’s another question, i’ll ask this more bluntly this time. are any of the creationists here ready to argue that modern relativity physics and modern formal mathematics are wrong too? as i pointed out earlier, these two fields are far more a threat to christian fundamentalism then evolution could ever hope to be. as some have pointed out, if one wants to, they could perhaps reconcile evolution with the bible. modern physics and math though present present serious logical problems for Christians.

so, the question is, are the christians ready to throw out modern physics and mathematics also? if so, might i point out that modern chemistry is based on physics, so that probably goes too. (though perhaps you can save the quantum stuff… its only really relativity theory that presents the problem for christians, so, i guess you can keep chemistry)

are we starting to see how silly this science vs the bible stuff is?

[quote]tedro wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Evolution helps explain ~50% of the phenomenons observed in Biology 101. Evolution makes everything make sense.

So, even as a learning tool exclusively, evolution has more worth than ID EVER will.

Edit: And he called you ignorant because you quite obviously ARE. Anyone whose taken a basic comprehensive biology course will understand why the theory of evolution is key to biological sciences.

You’ve now resorted to supporting evolution because it is a convenient explanation. Nevermind whether it is right or wrong. What is the point of a learning tool if it is incorrect?

I’d think twice before calling people ignorant.[/quote]

as was already pointed out, though phrased poorly, this is the heart of science. anyone who thinks science is really all about “observation” misunderstands the workings of modern science and misunderstands how theories function. of course observation is still a corner piece of science, but the actual process of developing and validating a theory is far more complicated. read some kuhn, hempel, or putnam for starters.

also, even a causal understanding of physics, perhaps the model to which all other sciences aspire, is enough to see that the theoretical, axiomatic systems are more important then the experimental results. (perhaps a slanted example, but einstein did not start his work on relivity theory because newtons program gave bad results.

newtons work was hugely successful. einstein mainly was motivated because newton’s system was messy–einstein produced a cleaner system. it was only afterwards that the experimental results validated einstein’s claims)

[quote]rugbyhit wrote:
books you can read to support my position (some are faily technical);

The Biotic Message by Walter ReMine

Body By Design by Alan Gillen

Bones of Contention by Marvin Lubenow

Darwin on Trial by Phillip Johnson

Darwin’s Black box by Michael Behe

Darwin’s Enigma by Luther Sutherland

Evolution:A Theory in Crisis by Michael Denton

In the Begining was Information by Werner Gitt

I could go on, but I’ll spare you. One other point, I was an evolutionist at one point, so I’m aware of the argument for the position, but it is flwed and has no evidence.[/quote]

and lastly… this is silly. there’s a new rule for evolution vs. creation debates–only peer reviewed professional journal articles can be cited as evidence. the people in modern professional science generally do not publish real research in books. “scientific” books are generally either: (1) textbooks, or (2) written as summaries of scientific positions for lay people.

if you can produce a list of recent articles supporting ID from peer reviewed biology journals, then your list will be taken seriously.

[quote]orion wrote:
Well yes, evolution is convenient. It explains so much. That is kind of the job of theories.

The second point is also wrong, because many teaching methods in taoism or zen-buddhism make no sense in and of themselves but force you to ask yourself questions.

In other words, if a learning tool makes you learn stuff it is “correct”, i.e. serves its purpose.
[/quote]

You are comparing religion and philosophy to science and its methods.

For evolution to be a valid scientific theory, one must be able to make and test hypotheses about it based on observation and experimentation. So long as these hypotheses hold true, evolution appears valid, when they are not true, the theory must be revised. This is all valid science.

When you relugate yourself to holding onto the theory because it is convenient and makes it easier to explain other things, you are short changing science as a whole. You also lose the ability to look at the theory objectively.

Evolution is not meant to be a learning tool, this is not its purpose. Its purpose is to explain how life on earth arrived at its current state. When we assume this to be true, it can be a learning tool, but again, this is not its purpose.

This is the same type of bad science that leads to things like the current global warming scare. When you quit being objective and let emotions and convenience get involved, you are no longer able to make true gains in the given field.

Hey, look, Iraq is also having science debates: http://haha.nu/interesting/iraqi-tv-debate-is-the-earth-flat/

well, though a bit naïve, this is true. i am no scientist, but i would assume that evolution DOES indeed make all these predictions that observation confirms, just like all the would-be philosophers of science in this debate demand. if it did not, it would not be taken seriously by anyone.

of course, as your about to scream, there are some facts that evolution does not adequately explain, or at the very least seem to conflict with what evolution should predict. this is all well and good, though despite whatever fallacies you wish to employ in your argumentation, these cases of unexplained facts do not somehow take away the validating power of the facts that evolution does explain.

this is what, in simpler terms, i’ve been trying to say over and over again, and what all the creationist seem to miss. just because you have some facts that the theory of evolution cannot explain does not invalidate the thoery… and likewise, just because there are a few facts that ID can explain does not somehow validate an otherwise improvised, non-scientific mess. (and remember, if you claim it is scientific, please provide rigorous definitions for your terms, and please formulate the theory in these newly defined precise terms using mathematical models and axioms, otherwise, go back to thinking that your high school education qualifies you to talk about what a science should be)

are we talking about evolution here, or ID?

there are no “purposes” or “ends” in science. that went out of style around the time of newton.

comparing evolution to global warming is a bad analogy. and independent of whether or not evolution is “bad science”, ID is surely bad science–if it is even science at all.

what really cracks me up is hearing christians in the general public whose training in science stops at the highschool level or intro to whatever in college tell professional scientists what “good science” is suppose to be.

[quote]tedro wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Evolution helps explain ~50% of the phenomenons observed in Biology 101. Evolution makes everything make sense.

So, even as a learning tool exclusively, evolution has more worth than ID EVER will.

Edit: And he called you ignorant because you quite obviously ARE. Anyone whose taken a basic comprehensive biology course will understand why the theory of evolution is key to biological sciences.

You’ve now resorted to supporting evolution because it is a convenient explanation. Nevermind whether it is right or wrong. What is the point of a learning tool if it is incorrect?

I’d think twice before calling people ignorant.[/quote]

…The stupid, it burns.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

…The stupid, it burns.[/quote]

your telling me… look what i found on www.creationism.com. this is quite the gem…

i mean, i realize that if your writing for the general public you need to dumb things down and make them understandable, but what he says here is just flat out wrong.

[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
well, though a bit naïve, this is true. i am no scientist, but i would assume that evolution DOES indeed make all these predictions that observation confirms, just like all the would-be philosophers of science in this debate demand. if it did not, it would not be taken seriously by anyone.

of course, as your about to scream, there are some facts that evolution does not adequately explain, or at the very least seem to conflict with what evolution should predict. this is all well and good, though despite whatever fallacies you wish to employ in your argumentation, these cases of unexplained facts do not somehow take away the validating power of the facts that evolution does explain.

this is what, in simpler terms, i’ve been trying to say over and over again, and what all the creationist seem to miss. just because you have some facts that the theory of evolution cannot explain does not invalidate the thoery… and likewise, just because there are a few facts that ID can explain does not somehow validate an otherwise improvised, non-scientific mess. (and remember, if you claim it is scientific, please provide rigorous definitions for your terms, and please formulate the theory in these newly defined precise terms using mathematical models and axioms, otherwise, go back to thinking that your high school education qualifies you to talk about what a science should be)

When you relugate yourself to holding onto the theory because it is convenient and makes it easier to explain other things, you are short changing science as a whole. You also lose the ability to look at the theory objectively.

are we talking about evolution here, or ID?

Evolution is not meant to be a learning tool, this is not its purpose. Its purpose is to explain how life on earth arrived at its current state. When we assume this to be true, it can be a learning tool, but again, this is not its purpose.

there are no “purposes” or “ends” in science. that went out of style around the time of newton.

This is the same type of bad science that leads to things like the current global warming scare. When you quit being objective and let emotions and convenience get involved, you are no longer able to make true gains in the given field.

comparing evolution to global warming is a bad analogy. and independent of whether or not evolution is “bad science”, ID is surely bad science–if it is even science at all.

what really cracks me up is hearing christians in the general public whose training in science stops at the highschool level or intro to whatever in college tell professional scientists what “good science” is suppose to be.
[/quote]

You’ve completely missed the point of my argument. Go back and read my first post in this thread. I am not arguing for either side of the evolution vs. creationsim debate. I am simply point out the problems of sticking with evolution because it is convenient. This is the type of attitude that is close-minded to other plausible theories, and gives people tunnel vision that leads to the theories being regarded as complete fact. This IS the same thing that is happening with global warming, so my analogy is valid.

Go back and brush up on your reading comprehension skills before you comment on my high school education. You may also want to work on your grammar and punctuation. I am not arguing against evolution, I’m arguing against poor reasons for arguing for evolution.

It just astounds me that people can believe that.
They then trot out the same old tired shit in support of it.

My hat is off to Pookie and the rest of you guys that actually have the drive to still debate these people and try to make them see the light.

[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

…The stupid, it burns.

your telling me… look what i found on www.creationism.com. this is quite the gem…

What is the source of the meaning of the protein words? There is a preexisting language convention for the meaning of words in this essay. The DNA molecule strongly infers that there is an aliveness convention that gives meaning to protein words. The DNA molecule is physical and nonliving, but the aliveness informa-tion �??riding�?? on it, like the meaning riding on these words, is spiritual or nonphysical and cannot be destroyed by the physical. Otherwise, we say that this ink and paper can destroy this author.

i mean, i realize that if your writing for the general public you need to dumb things down and make them understandable, but what he says here is just flat out wrong.
[/quote]

You do realize that creationism.com links you to the homepage for the National Center for Science Education website, a pro-evolution site, don’t you?

BTW, if you really want to try to dispute ID, stay away from the Christian Fundamentalists, as it is not typically these arguments that are used when defending ID.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
…The stupid, it burns.[/quote]

If you have something intelligent to say, feel free to post it. If you just want to argue with that kettle over who’s blacker, it would be much more becoming to keep it to yourself.

tedro,

I did not miss your point, your point in fact was just what i was commenting on. i’ll make it even shorter this time: you do not understand how theories function in science.

now again, i too am not defending evolution. if ID really did offer a “better”, more scientific theory, then I would support it. the fact that is does not provide such a theory. in professional science, evolution is the best bet in town right now, so it receives general support. if someone does not like it, then they need to come up with something better, and ID is not better.

Next, please cite a few prominent scientists that support ID and are not christians. If you can, i will apologize. in general though, i cite Christian sources because this whole “ID” shit is just neocreationism, and all of its real supporters are christians pushing their agenda. besides, if creationism.com is so respectable, why do they have so many silly articles on their site? i read a few of them, they’re all shit.

personally, i do not care about the debate, because i think both theories are wrong.

Lastly, please give me examples of grammatical mistakes i’ve made. when you do so, please reference what the mistake is, ie, “split infinitive”, “verb tense change”, “improperly placed prepositional phrase”, etc… if you can do this also, i will again apologize. also, if there any any spelling mistakes it’s because i don’t proof-read internet posts… these things are already long enough. (this is also why i don’t capitalize anything).

[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
tedro,

I did not miss your point, your point in fact was just what i was commenting on. i’ll make it even shorter this time: you do not understand how theories function in science.
[/quote]
And how did you come to that conclusion? I understand how theories function, and so long as the theory can theoretically be tested it is fine. While it is not very practical or even possible at this time, evolution can be tested. Since we can’t do anything about it at this time, it remains just a theory. This is fine, there is nothing wrong with that, but it should not be regarded as fact.

Now, sticking to evolution because it is a good learning tool is actually insulting to the theory in itself. Evolution can currently stand on its own as a theory, but when you have people that adhere to it only because it is a convenient theory you have a problem that leads to misrepresentation of said theory, as well as a lack of objectiveness when looking at other theories.

As somebody posted earlier, there is no reason to believe that the two are mutually exclusive. There is nothing wrong with supporting evolution, but it should not be regarded as fact as indeed, there is no proof for macro evolution.

Now the problem with intelligent design is that is does not fit into our current mold of science. This is not reason to downplay any of the theories, it simply leads to three questions. Should we redefine the scientific method? Should we find a way that metaphysics may be linked to science? Or should we remain close-minded and assume that we have been on the right path with evolution and continue on this way, with complete disregard of anything that may contradict this theory?

Now why would I need to do this for you? I have no desire to teach you about ID.

The fact that most of the proponents are Christian also does nothing for an argument. I simply warned not to rely on fundamentalists.

That’s great, again, I am not here to debate Creationism vs. Evolution. I am smart enough to admit that I don’t know and neither do you or any one else. I think both are worth studying, and I am comfortable arguing for either one. I also believe that there is likely some truth to both.

With only the occasional period and your lack of capitalization, your posts are painfully difficult to read.

[quote]tedro wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
…The stupid, it burns.

If you have something intelligent to say, feel free to post it. If you just want to argue with that kettle over who’s blacker, it would be much more becoming to keep it to yourself.[/quote]

You insinuated that because something is convenient, that that must be the sole reason it is excepted. As if convenience was a sole quality, unrelated to its correctness.

The convenience of the theory of evolution stems from its SUPPORT. The fact that it fits so well into our view of biology, and that it is not contradicted by almost all other scientific theories and is not contradicted by ANY laws, makes it the most correct (and therefore most convenient) theory available.

[quote]tedro wrote:

And how did you come to that conclusion? I understand how theories function, and so long as the theory can theoretically be tested it is fine. While it is not very practical or even possible at this time, evolution can be tested. Since we can’t do anything about it at this time, it remains just a theory. This is fine, there is nothing wrong with that, but it should not be regarded as fact.
[/quote]

When you only have one viable scientific theory (one theory total actually), it’s usually OK to pretend it’s fact until contradicting evidence arises.

Does it threaten you, at all, that we have so much confidence in evolution?

“Just a theory” is a misnomer, by the way. The only other thing it could be is a law, and there are only a scarce few of those (relatively).

(Yes, that was a terrible pun. Couldn’t help myself.)

[quote]And how did you come to that conclusion? I understand how theories function, and so long as the theory can theoretically be tested it is fine. While it is not very practical or even possible at this time, evolution can be tested. Since we can’t do anything about it at this time, it remains just a theory. This is fine, there is nothing wrong with that, but it should not be regarded as fact.

Now, sticking to evolution because it is a good learning tool is actually insulting to the theory in itself. Evolution can currently stand on its own as a theory, but when you have people that adhere to it only because it is a convenient theory you have a problem that leads to misrepresentation of said theory, as well as a lack of objectiveness when looking at other theories.
[/quote]

i’m trying to avoid being personal here, because this is the internet, so i’ll word it like this.

In high school, people are taught this nice little fairy tale about science. the fair tale goes like this. “Science is the empirical study of the world around us. it is based around the scientific method, which has (insert some random number here) steps to it. the key is though that science works by observing and measuring phenomena. to help explain these phenomena, scientists come up with hypothesis, which eventually turn into theories. if the theory holds against repeated observation, after a long time it becomes a law. bla bla bla”

all of this, after the line about “science is the empirical study of the world” is horse shit. generally, observation does not play a validating role in science. rather, generally it is falsification that is important (and yes, there’s quite the technical difference). theories are generally validated on their theoretical merit alone–ie, take Einstein’s relativity theory. it is of course seen as a plus if the theory makes predictions, but that is often a minor point. theories though of course are falsified all the time by contradictory results.

often though even contradictory results will not falsify a strong theory, as ad hoc amendments generally can fix any discrepancies. if you do not believe me, go study the history of science (the real history, not the fairy-tales in the text books).

further, this stuff about “scientific method” is bullshit. just what the “scientific method” is is a matter of debate. surely the text book writers don’t go around polling real working scientists to see what methods they use-and likewise working scientists surely don’t have some scientific method poster on their wall that they follow…

lastly, this whole “its just a theory” thing irks me. in professional science, being regarded as a theory is high praise. this idea of “theories” getting bumped up to the status of “laws” or “facts” is silly… real scientists stopped calling things “laws” about a hundred years ago after most of their “laws of nature” where shown to be false. the same thing with “facts”–scientists don’t worry about “laws” and “facts” much because they had to throw out too many supposed “laws” and “facts” too many times.

basically, real scientists are generally extreme pragmatists, and realistic. most of them understand that its very hard to get at the “Truth”, or to accurately describe the world around us. knowing this, they no longer have the optimism of the 19th century when scientists were busy writing up “laws”.

also, relativity is just a “theory” in physics, as well as all of quantum mechanics. are you ready to say we should treat these subjects carefully too?

you, and others, ascribe to this fairy-tale view of science.

oh, my sentences are not long. you might want to pick up Darwin’s book itself–some of his sentences are over a page long. besides, i’m keeping the technical jargon out of this, otherwise my posts would be unintelligible unless you up on current physics and philosophy of science.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
You insinuated that because something is convenient, that that must be the sole reason it is excepted. As if convenience was a sole quality, unrelated to its correctness.
[/quote]

I didn’t insinuate it. That is how you began your argument a few posts back.

I would hesitate to call it “correct” as it is still debatable, especially macro evolution. Otherwise, you should have began with something along these lines. Remember, I’m not arguing evolution, I’m arguing your original reasoning for accepting it.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
When you only have one viable scientific theory (one theory total actually), it’s usually OK to pretend it’s fact until contradicting evidence arises.

Does it threaten you, at all, that we have so much confidence in evolution?

“Just a theory” is a misnomer, by the way. The only other thing it could be is a law, and there are only a scarce few of those (relatively).

(Yes, that was a terrible pun. Couldn’t help myself.)[/quote]

No, it’s not ok to treat it as fact. It is ok to make assumptions while doing further research, but they must remain as assumptions. Treating something such as this as fact closes the book on other possible theories, leading to close-mindedness and a lack of objectivity.