Believers: What Would You Do?

Makavali · June 1, 2011, 11:53pm

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?

Some people are going to love others, regardless of whether or not a supernatural scorekeeper tells them to do so. Feel free to believe it’s impossible to love your children, your spouse, or your neighbor unless your god commands you. I fundamentally disagree that this is the case for everyone, and find it sad that it is the case for some.[/quote]

Okay then, what is love?[/quote]

Baby don’t hurt me

Don’t hurt me

No more[/quote]
I admit it, I lol’d.[/quote]

I’m glad someone got the reference lol

JoabSonOfZeruiah · June 2, 2011, 5:47pm

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The statement that I know nothing is a belief, not knowledge. Otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]Oh, I got it. So this is the part you’re sure about? You believe you know nothing so as to avoid self contradiction? This is the foundation of your life? That’s far out dude. Where do I sign up.? Oh yeah, I was enrolled at conception, but was later graduated, reborn actually, to a new life of unshakable certainty in the grace of the most high God and His Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevermind.
[/quote]

No, you don’t get it.

The large majority of human beings are as certain of their beliefs as you are of yours. Certainty, enrobed in faith, is the hallmark of humanity. It is driven by the insidious, pervasive presence of confirmatory bias that plagues all of us.

Most are unwilling to acknowledge this bias in themselves. You’re just another voice in the unwashed masses stridently asserting that your beliefs are REAL, and everyone else is mistaken.

Few are honest enough to admit their ignorance.[/quote]Which part of this are you sure about so as for me not to be wasting my time by responding? In the arena of ultimate questions, uncertainty is the practical equivalent of falsehood.
[/quote]

Certainty is the stark reality of children who haven’t developed the capacity to think in shades of gray.[/quote]
Are you certain about that statement? That statement is in the same ballpark of self-refuting statements such as “the only absolute truth is that there is no thing as absolute truth”, or the skeptics claim “nothing can be known” which would have to include his own claim.

forlife · June 2, 2011, 6:46pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Certainty is reality period. Shades of gray are for sinners who think they find cover from their flawlessly holy creator therein. I agree. Believing in Santa Claus doesn’t make him real. [/quote]

If certainty is reality, explain the certainty of Calvanists, Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormons. It’s impossible for all four of their realities to coexist.

forlife · June 2, 2011, 7:31pm

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The statement that I know nothing is a belief, not knowledge. Otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]Oh, I got it. So this is the part you’re sure about? You believe you know nothing so as to avoid self contradiction? This is the foundation of your life? That’s far out dude. Where do I sign up.? Oh yeah, I was enrolled at conception, but was later graduated, reborn actually, to a new life of unshakable certainty in the grace of the most high God and His Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevermind.
[/quote]

No, you don’t get it.

The large majority of human beings are as certain of their beliefs as you are of yours. Certainty, enrobed in faith, is the hallmark of humanity. It is driven by the insidious, pervasive presence of confirmatory bias that plagues all of us.

Most are unwilling to acknowledge this bias in themselves. You’re just another voice in the unwashed masses stridently asserting that your beliefs are REAL, and everyone else is mistaken.

Few are honest enough to admit their ignorance.[/quote]Which part of this are you sure about so as for me not to be wasting my time by responding? In the arena of ultimate questions, uncertainty is the practical equivalent of falsehood.
[/quote]

Certainty is the stark reality of children who haven’t developed the capacity to think in shades of gray.[/quote]
Are you certain about that statement? That statement is in the same ballpark of self-refuting statements such as “the only absolute truth is that there is no thing as absolute truth”, or the skeptics claim “nothing can be known” which would have to include his own claim.[/quote]

As I’ve said several times, absolute certainty about anything is unjustified since absolute knowledge, free of unknowable assumptions, is impossible. And yes, the assertion itself is a belief rather than absolute knowledge, otherwise it would be self-contradictory.

Tiribulus · June 2, 2011, 10:34pm

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Certainty is reality period. Shades of gray are for sinners who think they find cover from their flawlessly holy creator therein. I agree. Believing in Santa Claus doesn’t make him real. [/quote]

If certainty is reality, explain the certainty of Calvanists, Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormons. It’s impossible for all four of their realities to coexist.[/quote]I don’t mean that generic certainty as an abstract notion is reality as such anywhere it’s asserted. I mean that the God I know and love IS alone certainty itself and anything other than the certainty He both commands and provides in Christ is a glaring symptom of death in sin. The options are, where you and everyone is, which even philosophically speaking IS ultimately nowhere regardless of what perfume you try and put on that corpse. Or the absolute certainty of redemption from that in the resurrection of the Son of God whose blood washed that death away.

Every other world view is vulnerable to the same attack. Only the utterly non contingent self sufficient and independently sovereign TRIUNE deity I worship can defeat that bondage. In other words, Calvin’s God. Van Til’s God. Who actually is also the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Peter, Paul James, John and Jesus Himself. Not even the contingent Arminian God closes that circle of faith and intellect finally made one.

forlife · June 2, 2011, 11:31pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Certainty is reality period. Shades of gray are for sinners who think they find cover from their flawlessly holy creator therein. I agree. Believing in Santa Claus doesn’t make him real. [/quote]

If certainty is reality, explain the certainty of Calvanists, Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormons. It’s impossible for all four of their realities to coexist.[/quote]I don’t mean that generic certainty as an abstract notion is reality as such anywhere it’s asserted. I mean that the God I know and love IS alone certainty itself and anything other than the certainty He both commands and provides in Christ is a glaring symptom of death in sin. The options are, where you and everyone is, which even philosophically speaking IS ultimately nowhere regardless of what perfume you try and put on that corpse. Or the absolute certainty of redemption from that in the resurrection of the Son of God whose blood washed that death away.

Every other world view is vulnerable to the same attack. Only the utterly non contingent self sufficient and independently sovereign TRIUNE deity I worship can defeat that bondage. In other words, Calvin’s God. Van Til’s God. Who actually is also the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Peter, Paul James, John and Jesus Himself. Not even the contingent Arminian God closes that circle of faith and intellect finally made one.
[/quote]

In other words, you believe your certainty is reality, but dismiss the certainties of everyone that disagrees with you as fantasy.

Problem is, they do exactly the same thing to you and to one another.

You are blind men pointing at other blind men, and insisting that only you can see.

JoabSonOfZeruiah · June 3, 2011, 1:53am

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The statement that I know nothing is a belief, not knowledge. Otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]Oh, I got it. So this is the part you’re sure about? You believe you know nothing so as to avoid self contradiction? This is the foundation of your life? That’s far out dude. Where do I sign up.? Oh yeah, I was enrolled at conception, but was later graduated, reborn actually, to a new life of unshakable certainty in the grace of the most high God and His Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevermind.
[/quote]

No, you don’t get it.

The large majority of human beings are as certain of their beliefs as you are of yours. Certainty, enrobed in faith, is the hallmark of humanity. It is driven by the insidious, pervasive presence of confirmatory bias that plagues all of us.

Most are unwilling to acknowledge this bias in themselves. You’re just another voice in the unwashed masses stridently asserting that your beliefs are REAL, and everyone else is mistaken.

Few are honest enough to admit their ignorance.[/quote]Which part of this are you sure about so as for me not to be wasting my time by responding? In the arena of ultimate questions, uncertainty is the practical equivalent of falsehood.
[/quote]

Certainty is the stark reality of children who haven’t developed the capacity to think in shades of gray.[/quote]
Are you certain about that statement? That statement is in the same ballpark of self-refuting statements such as “the only absolute truth is that there is no thing as absolute truth”, or the skeptics claim “nothing can be known” which would have to include his own claim.[/quote]

As I’ve said several times, absolute certainty about anything is unjustified since absolute knowledge, free of unknowable assumptions, is impossible. And yes, the assertion itself is a belief rather than absolute knowledge, otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]
I don’t really believe you really believe that statement, especially when it is evident to yourself of its self refuting nature when taken as a truth claim.

Certainly there are certain beliefs you hold in a properly basic way which are not self evident or incorrigible even in the absence of evidence or sound argument for them, and yet still hold yourself rationally justified in holding such belief unless some defeater is brought against it. In fact most of the world is this way, if it wasn’t societies wouldn’t be able to function until they had a sound argument that the past, or existence of other people is real.

Tiribulus · June 3, 2011, 3:05am

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< In other words, you believe your certainty is reality, but dismiss the certainties of everyone that disagrees with you as fantasy. >>>[/quote]Not fantasy. Sin. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< Problem is, they do exactly the same thing to you and to one another. >>>[/quote]And like I say. They are every last one vulnerable to the same fatal refutation. Utterly self defeating dead end autonomous circularity. Not to mention rebellion against the God who is universally revealed in all that is by His own proclamation. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< You are blind men pointing at other blind men, and insisting that only you can see.[/quote]Says the guy who will tell you himself how uncertain everything is.

ZEB · June 3, 2011, 2:15pm

Trib, come on man you know that there’s no such thing as sin. Anything goes baby! No sin and no consequences for any sick perverted action that you want to take. It’s a world created by those who like to self-delude because it FEEEEEEEEELS SOOOOOO GOOOOOOD.

forlife · June 3, 2011, 4:08pm

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The statement that I know nothing is a belief, not knowledge. Otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]Oh, I got it. So this is the part you’re sure about? You believe you know nothing so as to avoid self contradiction? This is the foundation of your life? That’s far out dude. Where do I sign up.? Oh yeah, I was enrolled at conception, but was later graduated, reborn actually, to a new life of unshakable certainty in the grace of the most high God and His Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevermind.
[/quote]

No, you don’t get it.

The large majority of human beings are as certain of their beliefs as you are of yours. Certainty, enrobed in faith, is the hallmark of humanity. It is driven by the insidious, pervasive presence of confirmatory bias that plagues all of us.

Most are unwilling to acknowledge this bias in themselves. You’re just another voice in the unwashed masses stridently asserting that your beliefs are REAL, and everyone else is mistaken.

Few are honest enough to admit their ignorance.[/quote]Which part of this are you sure about so as for me not to be wasting my time by responding? In the arena of ultimate questions, uncertainty is the practical equivalent of falsehood.
[/quote]

Certainty is the stark reality of children who haven’t developed the capacity to think in shades of gray.[/quote]
Are you certain about that statement? That statement is in the same ballpark of self-refuting statements such as “the only absolute truth is that there is no thing as absolute truth”, or the skeptics claim “nothing can be known” which would have to include his own claim.[/quote]

As I’ve said several times, absolute certainty about anything is unjustified since absolute knowledge, free of unknowable assumptions, is impossible. And yes, the assertion itself is a belief rather than absolute knowledge, otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]
I don’t really believe you really believe that statement, especially when it is evident to yourself of its self refuting nature when taken as a truth claim.

Certainly there are certain beliefs you hold in a properly basic way which are not self evident or incorrigible even in the absence of evidence or sound argument for them, and yet still hold yourself rationally justified in holding such belief unless some defeater is brought against it. In fact most of the world is this way, if it wasn’t societies wouldn’t be able to function until they had a sound argument that the past, or existence of other people is real.[/quote]

Where did I argue that I don’t have beliefs based upon properly basic assumptions? Of course I do. But I don’t insist they are ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE, AND NOBODY COULD POSSIBLY BE RIGHT WHO DISAGREES WITH ME, as is so often the case with religious beliefs.

forlife · June 3, 2011, 4:13pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< In other words, you believe your certainty is reality, but dismiss the certainties of everyone that disagrees with you as fantasy. >>>[/quote]Not fantasy. Sin. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< Problem is, they do exactly the same thing to you and to one another. >>>[/quote]And like I say. They are every last one vulnerable to the same fatal refutation. Utterly self defeating dead end autonomous circularity. Not to mention rebellion against the God who is universally revealed in all that is by His own proclamation. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< You are blind men pointing at other blind men, and insisting that only you can see.[/quote]Says the guy who will tell you himself how uncertain everything is.
[/quote]

You see everyone who disagrees with you as victims of “utterly self defeating dead end autonomous circularity”. Guess what? They say the same about you, and none of you can prove anything.

I’m a blind guy that is honest enough to admit his blindness.

You are just as blind as me, yet you insist that you can see, and everyone that disagrees with you is blind.

JoabSonOfZeruiah · June 3, 2011, 4:53pm

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The statement that I know nothing is a belief, not knowledge. Otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]Oh, I got it. So this is the part you’re sure about? You believe you know nothing so as to avoid self contradiction? This is the foundation of your life? That’s far out dude. Where do I sign up.? Oh yeah, I was enrolled at conception, but was later graduated, reborn actually, to a new life of unshakable certainty in the grace of the most high God and His Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevermind.
[/quote]

No, you don’t get it.

The large majority of human beings are as certain of their beliefs as you are of yours. Certainty, enrobed in faith, is the hallmark of humanity. It is driven by the insidious, pervasive presence of confirmatory bias that plagues all of us.

Most are unwilling to acknowledge this bias in themselves. You’re just another voice in the unwashed masses stridently asserting that your beliefs are REAL, and everyone else is mistaken.

Few are honest enough to admit their ignorance.[/quote]Which part of this are you sure about so as for me not to be wasting my time by responding? In the arena of ultimate questions, uncertainty is the practical equivalent of falsehood.
[/quote]

Certainty is the stark reality of children who haven’t developed the capacity to think in shades of gray.[/quote]
Are you certain about that statement? That statement is in the same ballpark of self-refuting statements such as “the only absolute truth is that there is no thing as absolute truth”, or the skeptics claim “nothing can be known” which would have to include his own claim.[/quote]

As I’ve said several times, absolute certainty about anything is unjustified since absolute knowledge, free of unknowable assumptions, is impossible. And yes, the assertion itself is a belief rather than absolute knowledge, otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]
I don’t really believe you really believe that statement, especially when it is evident to yourself of its self refuting nature when taken as a truth claim.

Certainly there are certain beliefs you hold in a properly basic way which are not self evident or incorrigible even in the absence of evidence or sound argument for them, and yet still hold yourself rationally justified in holding such belief unless some defeater is brought against it. In fact most of the world is this way, if it wasn’t societies wouldn’t be able to function until they had a sound argument that the past, or existence of other people is real.[/quote]

Where did I argue that I don’t have beliefs based upon properly basic assumptions? Of course I do. But I don’t insist they are ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE, AND NOBODY COULD POSSIBLY BE RIGHT WHO DISAGREES WITH ME, as is so often the case with religious beliefs.[/quote]
Something exists, rather than nothing at all, I know you know this with 100% certainty. I don’t care how skeptical you try to be the value doesn’t go below 100%.

I find it disingenuous that you demand of the believer to demonstrate with 100% certainty when you yourself believe on less.

ZEB · June 3, 2011, 5:12pm

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

I find it disingenuous that you demand of the believer to demonstrate with 100% certainty when you yourself believe on less.[/quote]

You find forlife disingenuous? Welcome to the club!

forlife · June 3, 2011, 8:18pm