You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?
Some people are going to love others, regardless of whether or not a supernatural scorekeeper tells them to do so. Feel free to believe it’s impossible to love your children, your spouse, or your neighbor unless your god commands you. I fundamentally disagree that this is the case for everyone, and find it sad that it is the case for some.[/quote]
Okay then, what is love?[/quote]
A feeling of warm, personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?
Some people are going to love others, regardless of whether or not a supernatural scorekeeper tells them to do so. Feel free to believe it’s impossible to love your children, your spouse, or your neighbor unless your god commands you. I fundamentally disagree that this is the case for everyone, and find it sad that it is the case for some.[/quote]
Okay then, what is love?[/quote]
A feeling of warm, personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.[/quote]
How superficial…That’s it? What about when the chips are down? What about those times of anger, indifference and exhaustion? By that definition, you are not in love or do not have love.
You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?
Some people are going to love others, regardless of whether or not a supernatural scorekeeper tells them to do so. Feel free to believe it’s impossible to love your children, your spouse, or your neighbor unless your god commands you. I fundamentally disagree that this is the case for everyone, and find it sad that it is the case for some.[/quote]
Okay then, what is love?[/quote]
A feeling of warm, personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.[/quote]
How superficial…That’s it? What about when the chips are down? What about those times of anger, indifference and exhaustion? By that definition, you are not in love or do not have love.[/quote]
Criticize dictionary.com, not me. I see no reference to the supernatural in any of the three definitions listed there. Are we really down to arguing semantics?
It’s only a conflict if you believe love is supernatural in origin. I don’t believe that, and thus have no problem loving people despite my lack of belief in a supernatural being.
[/quote]
FL, you’ve been a dog chasing his tail on this thread. You started with what for you was an immutable concept and you searched and searched and searched for support for it. You got virtually none. But your faith stayed strong, you dug your heels in and you’re right back to where you began in the original post.
And yet you often scoff at believers on this forum for their faith. You are the emperor with no clothes, bud.
[/quote]
How about you stop portraying me as something I’m not?
I’ve said repeatedly that I’m ignorant, and don’t know all the answers. The difference between us is that I recognize my ignorance, and you do not.
You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?
Some people are going to love others, regardless of whether or not a supernatural scorekeeper tells them to do so. Feel free to believe it’s impossible to love your children, your spouse, or your neighbor unless your god commands you. I fundamentally disagree that this is the case for everyone, and find it sad that it is the case for some.[/quote]
“It’s only a conflict if you believe love is supernatural in origin. I don’t believe that, and thus have no problem loving people despite my lack of belief in a supernatural being,”
is not a statement of professed ignorance. You contradict yourself continually.
[/quote]
Wrong. Lack of belief in something is different from asserting that something cannot possibly be true.
I don’t know if there is a god(s) or not. I don’t know if there is an afterlife or not. Until I see reliable evidence either way, I won’t insist that either theory must be true.
As an agnostic (basically) who has grown up in a secular society (which hasn’t fallen apart - at least no more than religious ones), with one side of the family deeply religious and the other side very much atheist, I just can’t wrap my head around this notion than non-religious people don’t have a moral compass, or that without G_d people would simply revert to some sort of Id, reptile-like behaviour.
I mean no disrespect to anyone, but that line of thinking is completely alien to me. I know too many heartless bastards and absolute gems, from completely a-religious people to true believers, to generalize in any way.
Guess I’m a product of Norse/Greek/Roman/Judean/Christian/Enlightenment influences. That last part is something for which I am extremely grateful.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
This entire thread indicates you are chock full of faith that no God, no Creator is necessary, nor never has been, for humans to have love for one another.
What is so hard to understand about that?
You’re standing in front of and staring at a huge red barn and yet you insist you see nothing.
[/quote]
What I believe is different from what I know. And ultimately, I know nothing.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The statement that I know nothing is a belief, not knowledge. Otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]Oh, I got it. So this is the part you’re sure about? You believe you know nothing so as to avoid self contradiction? This is the foundation of your life? That’s far out dude. Where do I sign up.? Oh yeah, I was enrolled at conception, but was later graduated, reborn actually, to a new life of unshakable certainty in the grace of the most high God and His Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevermind.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The statement that I know nothing is a belief, not knowledge. Otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]Oh, I got it. So this is the part you’re sure about? You believe you know nothing so as to avoid self contradiction? This is the foundation of your life? That’s far out dude. Where do I sign up.? Oh yeah, I was enrolled at conception, but was later graduated, reborn actually, to a new life of unshakable certainty in the grace of the most high God and His Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevermind.
[/quote]
No, you don’t get it.
The large majority of human beings are as certain of their beliefs as you are of yours. Certainty, enrobed in faith, is the hallmark of humanity. It is driven by the insidious, pervasive presence of confirmatory bias that plagues all of us.
Most are unwilling to acknowledge this bias in themselves. You’re just another voice in the unwashed masses stridently asserting that your beliefs are REAL, and everyone else is mistaken.
You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?
Some people are going to love others, regardless of whether or not a supernatural scorekeeper tells them to do so. Feel free to believe it’s impossible to love your children, your spouse, or your neighbor unless your god commands you. I fundamentally disagree that this is the case for everyone, and find it sad that it is the case for some.[/quote]
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The statement that I know nothing is a belief, not knowledge. Otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]Oh, I got it. So this is the part you’re sure about? You believe you know nothing so as to avoid self contradiction? This is the foundation of your life? That’s far out dude. Where do I sign up.? Oh yeah, I was enrolled at conception, but was later graduated, reborn actually, to a new life of unshakable certainty in the grace of the most high God and His Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevermind.
[/quote]
No, you don’t get it.
The large majority of human beings are as certain of their beliefs as you are of yours. Certainty, enrobed in faith, is the hallmark of humanity. It is driven by the insidious, pervasive presence of confirmatory bias that plagues all of us.
Most are unwilling to acknowledge this bias in themselves. You’re just another voice in the unwashed masses stridently asserting that your beliefs are REAL, and everyone else is mistaken.
Few are honest enough to admit their ignorance.[/quote]Which part of this are you sure about so as for me not to be wasting my time by responding? In the arena of ultimate questions, uncertainty is the practical equivalent of falsehood.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< The statement that I know nothing is a belief, not knowledge. Otherwise it would be self-contradictory.[/quote]Oh, I got it. So this is the part you’re sure about? You believe you know nothing so as to avoid self contradiction? This is the foundation of your life? That’s far out dude. Where do I sign up.? Oh yeah, I was enrolled at conception, but was later graduated, reborn actually, to a new life of unshakable certainty in the grace of the most high God and His Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevermind.
[/quote]
No, you don’t get it.
The large majority of human beings are as certain of their beliefs as you are of yours. Certainty, enrobed in faith, is the hallmark of humanity. It is driven by the insidious, pervasive presence of confirmatory bias that plagues all of us.
Most are unwilling to acknowledge this bias in themselves. You’re just another voice in the unwashed masses stridently asserting that your beliefs are REAL, and everyone else is mistaken.
Few are honest enough to admit their ignorance.[/quote]Which part of this are you sure about so as for me not to be wasting my time by responding? In the arena of ultimate questions, uncertainty is the practical equivalent of falsehood.
[/quote]
Certainty is the stark reality of children who haven’t developed the capacity to think in shades of gray. But believing in Santa Claus doesn’t make him real.
Certainty is reality period. Shades of gray are for sinners who think they find cover from their flawlessly holy creator therein. I agree. Believing in Santa Claus doesn’t make him real.