Believers: What Would You Do?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
341

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
I can’t talk about myself, yet I can imagine a professing christian(whether he really was one or not is a topic for another thread which I have no desire to participate in yet do lean towards a position) who is now an apostate who is now a naturalist going through a similar experience that you have gone through.

But what this person fails to realize if hes honest with himself is that he has no rationally compelling reason to be good, he can only argue to be good from a pragmatic standpoint and appealing to people’s pragmatic sensibilities yet this assumes people are playing by the same rules. If these people think they can get away with it his pragmatic argument wouldn’t be very compelling for it doesn’t give a reason why one should be good. Secondly the question of what is good comes up, since from his viewpoint goodness isn’t grounded in anything objective and whats good for one is different for another one.

If this person truly believed in naturalism then good and love are just illusion and has no barrier to pursue any pleasure he can get away with. If he could get away with it, why shouldn’t he.

342

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
I can’t talk about myself, yet I can imagine a professing christian(whether he really was one or not is a topic for another thread which I have no desire to participate in yet do lean towards a position) who is now an apostate who is now a naturalist going through a similar experience that you have gone through.

But what this person fails to realize if hes honest with himself is that he has no rationally compelling reason to be good, he can only argue to be good from a pragmatic standpoint and appealing to people’s pragmatic sensibilities yet this assumes people are playing by the same rules. If these people think they can get away with it his pragmatic argument wouldn’t be very compelling for it doesn’t give a reason why one should be good. Secondly the question of what is good comes up, since from his viewpoint goodness isn’t grounded in anything objective and whats good for one is different for another one.

If this person truly believed in naturalism then good and love are just illusion and has no barrier to pursue any pleasure he can get away with. If he could get away with it, why shouldn’t he.[/quote]

The scenario asked what you would do if there really was no god or afterlife, not what you would do if there was but you were just rationalizing your way through life to pretend there wasn’t.

So again, I ask: What would YOU do in that reality? Would you do whatever you could get away with, with no thought for the consequences to other people? Would you be utterly selfish?

I have no doubt that many would do just that. Many NEED the belief in a supernatural scorekeeper to keep them in line. But not all. Some actually care about others for their own sake, rather than because a priest has told them they should.

343

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
I can’t talk about myself, yet I can imagine a professing christian(whether he really was one or not is a topic for another thread which I have no desire to participate in yet do lean towards a position) who is now an apostate who is now a naturalist going through a similar experience that you have gone through.

But what this person fails to realize if hes honest with himself is that he has no rationally compelling reason to be good, he can only argue to be good from a pragmatic standpoint and appealing to people’s pragmatic sensibilities yet this assumes people are playing by the same rules. If these people think they can get away with it his pragmatic argument wouldn’t be very compelling for it doesn’t give a reason why one should be good. Secondly the question of what is good comes up, since from his viewpoint goodness isn’t grounded in anything objective and whats good for one is different for another one.

If this person truly believed in naturalism then good and love are just illusion and has no barrier to pursue any pleasure he can get away with. If he could get away with it, why shouldn’t he.[/quote]

The scenario asked what you would do if there really was no god or afterlife, not what you would do if there was but you were just rationalizing your way through life to pretend there wasn’t.

So again, I ask: What would YOU do in that reality? Would you do whatever you could get away with, with no thought for the consequences to other people? Would you be utterly selfish?

I have no doubt that many would do just that. Many NEED the belief in a supernatural scorekeeper to keep them in line. But not all. Some actually care about others for their own sake, rather than because a priest has told them they should.[/quote]

How about you? What if you came to unequivocally believe that God does exist, would you change anything?

344

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
I can’t talk about myself, yet I can imagine a professing christian(whether he really was one or not is a topic for another thread which I have no desire to participate in yet do lean towards a position) who is now an apostate who is now a naturalist going through a similar experience that you have gone through.

But what this person fails to realize if hes honest with himself is that he has no rationally compelling reason to be good, he can only argue to be good from a pragmatic standpoint and appealing to people’s pragmatic sensibilities yet this assumes people are playing by the same rules. If these people think they can get away with it his pragmatic argument wouldn’t be very compelling for it doesn’t give a reason why one should be good. Secondly the question of what is good comes up, since from his viewpoint goodness isn’t grounded in anything objective and whats good for one is different for another one.

If this person truly believed in naturalism then good and love are just illusion and has no barrier to pursue any pleasure he can get away with. If he could get away with it, why shouldn’t he.[/quote]

The scenario asked what you would do if there really was no god or afterlife, not what you would do if there was but you were just rationalizing your way through life to pretend there wasn’t.

So again, I ask: What would YOU do in that reality? Would you do whatever you could get away with, with no thought for the consequences to other people? Would you be utterly selfish?

I have no doubt that many would do just that. Many NEED the belief in a supernatural scorekeeper to keep them in line. But not all. Some actually care about others for their own sake, rather than because a priest has told them they should.[/quote]
Lets say that I was the CEO of an American Car Company during the bail outs and I was raised with christian values but later became a naturalist and my wife and friends have the same view I do now. What reason do I have for not taking advantage of the company and getting a huge severance package if I can get away with it. Sure I might donate some money to charitable causes but only because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with it being right because there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and evil in my viewpoint.(assuming I was this CEO who was a naturalist.)

345

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Lets say that I was the CEO of an American Car Company during the bail outs and I was raised with christian values but later became a naturalist and my wife and friends have the same view I do now. What reason do I have for not taking advantage of the company and getting a huge severance package if I can get away with it. Sure I might donate some money to charitable causes but only because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with it being right because there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and evil in my viewpoint.(assuming I was this CEO who was a naturalist.)[/quote]

What if the naturalist CEO want’s to feel extrasupergood about himself, and the Christian donates just barely the amount needed so he can say he’s a good christian? What do you think it means for a good deal of christians when they do something visible that is deemed to be good?

I think this ‘there is no good or evil’ -thing has been exaggerated out of proportion and people have taken it and started running with it for various reasons. It shouldn’t have anything to do with life as we live it, it’s a cosmological, general, ultimate or whaterver concept. Nature in the grand scheme knows not about right or wrong, it doesn’t apply to humans.

Because of its communality religion certainly keeps better check of immature people searching for excuses, but religion is also an exellent hiding place for evil, what could possibly be better than be evil and appear to be righteous.

346

Matthew 6:1-3 [quote]1-"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

  2-"So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3-"But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4-so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.[/quote] Jesus is talking here more about an attitude than going to great lengths to see that no one find out about your charity, but this is the principle. [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< but religion is also an exellent hiding place for evil, what could possibly be better than be evil and appear to be righteous.[/quote] You have no idea how unbelievably and extensively true this is.
347

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
I can’t talk about myself, yet I can imagine a professing christian(whether he really was one or not is a topic for another thread which I have no desire to participate in yet do lean towards a position) who is now an apostate who is now a naturalist going through a similar experience that you have gone through.

But what this person fails to realize if hes honest with himself is that he has no rationally compelling reason to be good, he can only argue to be good from a pragmatic standpoint and appealing to people’s pragmatic sensibilities yet this assumes people are playing by the same rules. If these people think they can get away with it his pragmatic argument wouldn’t be very compelling for it doesn’t give a reason why one should be good. Secondly the question of what is good comes up, since from his viewpoint goodness isn’t grounded in anything objective and whats good for one is different for another one.

If this person truly believed in naturalism then good and love are just illusion and has no barrier to pursue any pleasure he can get away with. If he could get away with it, why shouldn’t he.[/quote]

The scenario asked what you would do if there really was no god or afterlife, not what you would do if there was but you were just rationalizing your way through life to pretend there wasn’t.

So again, I ask: What would YOU do in that reality? Would you do whatever you could get away with, with no thought for the consequences to other people? Would you be utterly selfish?

I have no doubt that many would do just that. Many NEED the belief in a supernatural scorekeeper to keep them in line. But not all. Some actually care about others for their own sake, rather than because a priest has told them they should.[/quote]

How about you? What if you came to unequivocally believe that God does exist, would you change anything?[/quote]

I answered this exact question from you earlier in the thread.

348

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
I can’t talk about myself, yet I can imagine a professing christian(whether he really was one or not is a topic for another thread which I have no desire to participate in yet do lean towards a position) who is now an apostate who is now a naturalist going through a similar experience that you have gone through.

But what this person fails to realize if hes honest with himself is that he has no rationally compelling reason to be good, he can only argue to be good from a pragmatic standpoint and appealing to people’s pragmatic sensibilities yet this assumes people are playing by the same rules. If these people think they can get away with it his pragmatic argument wouldn’t be very compelling for it doesn’t give a reason why one should be good. Secondly the question of what is good comes up, since from his viewpoint goodness isn’t grounded in anything objective and whats good for one is different for another one.

If this person truly believed in naturalism then good and love are just illusion and has no barrier to pursue any pleasure he can get away with. If he could get away with it, why shouldn’t he.[/quote]

The scenario asked what you would do if there really was no god or afterlife, not what you would do if there was but you were just rationalizing your way through life to pretend there wasn’t.

So again, I ask: What would YOU do in that reality? Would you do whatever you could get away with, with no thought for the consequences to other people? Would you be utterly selfish?

I have no doubt that many would do just that. Many NEED the belief in a supernatural scorekeeper to keep them in line. But not all. Some actually care about others for their own sake, rather than because a priest has told them they should.[/quote]
Lets say that I was the CEO of an American Car Company during the bail outs and I was raised with christian values but later became a naturalist and my wife and friends have the same view I do now. What reason do I have for not taking advantage of the company and getting a huge severance package if I can get away with it. Sure I might donate some money to charitable causes but only because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with it being right because there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and evil in my viewpoint.(assuming I was this CEO who was a naturalist.)[/quote]

How about helping others, not because it’s “good” according to a supernatural scorekeeper, but because you actually love them?

349

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
I can’t talk about myself, yet I can imagine a professing christian(whether he really was one or not is a topic for another thread which I have no desire to participate in yet do lean towards a position) who is now an apostate who is now a naturalist going through a similar experience that you have gone through.

But what this person fails to realize if hes honest with himself is that he has no rationally compelling reason to be good, he can only argue to be good from a pragmatic standpoint and appealing to people’s pragmatic sensibilities yet this assumes people are playing by the same rules. If these people think they can get away with it his pragmatic argument wouldn’t be very compelling for it doesn’t give a reason why one should be good. Secondly the question of what is good comes up, since from his viewpoint goodness isn’t grounded in anything objective and whats good for one is different for another one.

If this person truly believed in naturalism then good and love are just illusion and has no barrier to pursue any pleasure he can get away with. If he could get away with it, why shouldn’t he.[/quote]

The scenario asked what you would do if there really was no god or afterlife, not what you would do if there was but you were just rationalizing your way through life to pretend there wasn’t.

So again, I ask: What would YOU do in that reality? Would you do whatever you could get away with, with no thought for the consequences to other people? Would you be utterly selfish?

I have no doubt that many would do just that. Many NEED the belief in a supernatural scorekeeper to keep them in line. But not all. Some actually care about others for their own sake, rather than because a priest has told them they should.[/quote]
Lets say that I was the CEO of an American Car Company during the bail outs and I was raised with christian values but later became a naturalist and my wife and friends have the same view I do now. What reason do I have for not taking advantage of the company and getting a huge severance package if I can get away with it. Sure I might donate some money to charitable causes but only because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with it being right because there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and evil in my viewpoint.(assuming I was this CEO who was a naturalist.)[/quote]

How about helping others, not because it’s “good” according to a supernatural scorekeeper, but because you actually love them?

[/quote]

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you tell your family you love them instead of “I have an evolutionary developed chemical reaction in my brain that makes me tend to want to protect you and being around you releases a chemical that makes me feel like I?m eating a lot of chocolate”, you aren?t a real atheist.[/quote]
You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?

350

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Lets say that I was the CEO of an American Car Company during the bail outs and I was raised with christian values but later became a naturalist and my wife and friends have the same view I do now. What reason do I have for not taking advantage of the company and getting a huge severance package if I can get away with it. Sure I might donate some money to charitable causes but only because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with it being right because there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and evil in my viewpoint.(assuming I was this CEO who was a naturalist.)[/quote]

What if the naturalist CEO want’s to feel extrasupergood about himself, and the Christian donates just barely the amount needed so he can say he’s a good christian? What do you think it means for a good deal of christians when they do something visible that is deemed to be good?

I think this ‘there is no good or evil’ -thing has been exaggerated out of proportion and people have taken it and started running with it for various reasons. It shouldn’t have anything to do with life as we live it, it’s a cosmological, general, ultimate or whaterver concept. Nature in the grand scheme knows not about right or wrong, it doesn’t apply to humans.

Because of its communality religion certainly keeps better check of immature people searching for excuses, but religion is also an exellent hiding place for evil, what could possibly be better than be evil and appear to be righteous.[/quote]
Why are humans exempt from nature, isn’t the point of naturalism that humans are a part of nature?

I feel Tiribulus has address your other points sufficiently unless you want me to address them.

351

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Lets say that I was the CEO of an American Car Company during the bail outs and I was raised with christian values but later became a naturalist and my wife and friends have the same view I do now. What reason do I have for not taking advantage of the company and getting a huge severance package if I can get away with it. Sure I might donate some money to charitable causes but only because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with it being right because there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and evil in my viewpoint.(assuming I was this CEO who was a naturalist.)[/quote]

What if the naturalist CEO want’s to feel extrasupergood about himself, and the Christian donates just barely the amount needed so he can say he’s a good christian? What do you think it means for a good deal of christians when they do something visible that is deemed to be good?

I think this ‘there is no good or evil’ -thing has been exaggerated out of proportion and people have taken it and started running with it for various reasons. It shouldn’t have anything to do with life as we live it, it’s a cosmological, general, ultimate or whaterver concept. Nature in the grand scheme knows not about right or wrong, it doesn’t apply to humans.

Because of its communality religion certainly keeps better check of immature people searching for excuses, but religion is also an exellent hiding place for evil, what could possibly be better than be evil and appear to be righteous.[/quote]
Why are humans exempt from nature, isn’t the point of naturalism that humans are a part of nature?

I feel Tiribulus has address your other points sufficiently unless you want me to address them.[/quote]

Yes, and the concepts of good and bad are special to this species. Concepts in general, and some anatomical peculiarities, are what sets us apart. Probably any species would have their own conceptions of good and bad if they could form them.

You address them if you feel like it. This isn’t a competition so no smart comebacks are needed,either, though fully allowed, encouraged even, if you have a good one.

352

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
I can’t talk about myself, yet I can imagine a professing christian(whether he really was one or not is a topic for another thread which I have no desire to participate in yet do lean towards a position) who is now an apostate who is now a naturalist going through a similar experience that you have gone through.

But what this person fails to realize if hes honest with himself is that he has no rationally compelling reason to be good, he can only argue to be good from a pragmatic standpoint and appealing to people’s pragmatic sensibilities yet this assumes people are playing by the same rules. If these people think they can get away with it his pragmatic argument wouldn’t be very compelling for it doesn’t give a reason why one should be good. Secondly the question of what is good comes up, since from his viewpoint goodness isn’t grounded in anything objective and whats good for one is different for another one.

If this person truly believed in naturalism then good and love are just illusion and has no barrier to pursue any pleasure he can get away with. If he could get away with it, why shouldn’t he.[/quote]

The scenario asked what you would do if there really was no god or afterlife, not what you would do if there was but you were just rationalizing your way through life to pretend there wasn’t.

So again, I ask: What would YOU do in that reality? Would you do whatever you could get away with, with no thought for the consequences to other people? Would you be utterly selfish?

I have no doubt that many would do just that. Many NEED the belief in a supernatural scorekeeper to keep them in line. But not all. Some actually care about others for their own sake, rather than because a priest has told them they should.[/quote]
Lets say that I was the CEO of an American Car Company during the bail outs and I was raised with christian values but later became a naturalist and my wife and friends have the same view I do now. What reason do I have for not taking advantage of the company and getting a huge severance package if I can get away with it. Sure I might donate some money to charitable causes but only because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with it being right because there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and evil in my viewpoint.(assuming I was this CEO who was a naturalist.)[/quote]

How about helping others, not because it’s “good” according to a supernatural scorekeeper, but because you actually love them?

[/quote]

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you tell your family you love them instead of “I have an evolutionary developed chemical reaction in my brain that makes me tend to want to protect you and being around you releases a chemical that makes me feel like I?m eating a lot of chocolate”, you aren?t a real atheist.[/quote]
You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?[/quote]

Some people are going to love others, regardless of whether or not a supernatural scorekeeper tells them to do so. Feel free to believe it’s impossible to love your children, your spouse, or your neighbor unless your god commands you. I fundamentally disagree that this is the case for everyone, and find it sad that it is the case for some.

353

I just noticed this thread - so if OP is still interested:

I lived through exactly what you are asking about. I was raised Mormon, and lost interest at about the age of 18. For 15 years I was not at all sure there was a God. During that time I had to decide what my morality was, and what it was based on. In retrospect, I would say I mostly found rationalizations for the ways of life that had been ingrained in me from early on. I never questioned the existence of Love. Whether it is a purely chemical phenomenon or spiritually based - it is real. So I always treated my family well. I think I was more susceptible to cheating on my wife (if I thought I could get a way with it), but never really did.

Reasons to be “good” that I found:

  1. its better for everyone if we are nice to each other and obey the “rules”
  2. people who are nice to others have more friends and are happier
  3. honest, hard-working people are more likely to be successful
  4. two-faced people who try to pretend the above, but are willing to cheat, steal and lie usually get caught,
    and can’t be truly happy trying to live double lives.
354

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< I was raised Mormon, <<<>>> For 15 years I was not at all sure there was a God. During that time I had to decide what my morality was, and what it was based on. >>>[/quote]This was all you needed to say.

355

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Lets say that I was the CEO of an American Car Company during the bail outs and I was raised with christian values but later became a naturalist and my wife and friends have the same view I do now. What reason do I have for not taking advantage of the company and getting a huge severance package if I can get away with it. Sure I might donate some money to charitable causes but only because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with it being right because there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and evil in my viewpoint.(assuming I was this CEO who was a naturalist.)[/quote]

What if the naturalist CEO want’s to feel extrasupergood about himself, and the Christian donates just barely the amount needed so he can say he’s a good christian? What do you think it means for a good deal of christians when they do something visible that is deemed to be good?

I think this ‘there is no good or evil’ -thing has been exaggerated out of proportion and people have taken it and started running with it for various reasons. It shouldn’t have anything to do with life as we live it, it’s a cosmological, general, ultimate or whaterver concept. Nature in the grand scheme knows not about right or wrong, it doesn’t apply to humans.

Because of its communality religion certainly keeps better check of immature people searching for excuses, but religion is also an exellent hiding place for evil, what could possibly be better than be evil and appear to be righteous.[/quote]
Why are humans exempt from nature, isn’t the point of naturalism that humans are a part of nature?

I feel Tiribulus has address your other points sufficiently unless you want me to address them.[/quote]

Yes, and the concepts of good and bad are special to this species. Concepts in general, and some anatomical peculiarities, are what sets us apart. Probably any species would have their own conceptions of good and bad if they could form them.

You address them if you feel like it. This isn’t a competition so no smart comebacks are needed,either, though fully allowed, encouraged even, if you have a good one.[/quote]
Honestly from the confines of a naturalistic worldview I see no place for value judgements. In this worldview the wind blowing through the trees making a rustling sound through the leaves has no value judgement different than the apparent concern I have for other people even if they are distinct events. Naturalism implicitly denies personhood and just reduces everything to processes of chemistry and physics which are amoral. In this worldview one may still have an explanation as to why humans and lions behave the way they do but good and bad, and right and wrong do not enter the picture.

356

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
I can’t talk about myself, yet I can imagine a professing christian(whether he really was one or not is a topic for another thread which I have no desire to participate in yet do lean towards a position) who is now an apostate who is now a naturalist going through a similar experience that you have gone through.

But what this person fails to realize if hes honest with himself is that he has no rationally compelling reason to be good, he can only argue to be good from a pragmatic standpoint and appealing to people’s pragmatic sensibilities yet this assumes people are playing by the same rules. If these people think they can get away with it his pragmatic argument wouldn’t be very compelling for it doesn’t give a reason why one should be good. Secondly the question of what is good comes up, since from his viewpoint goodness isn’t grounded in anything objective and whats good for one is different for another one.

If this person truly believed in naturalism then good and love are just illusion and has no barrier to pursue any pleasure he can get away with. If he could get away with it, why shouldn’t he.[/quote]

The scenario asked what you would do if there really was no god or afterlife, not what you would do if there was but you were just rationalizing your way through life to pretend there wasn’t.

So again, I ask: What would YOU do in that reality? Would you do whatever you could get away with, with no thought for the consequences to other people? Would you be utterly selfish?

I have no doubt that many would do just that. Many NEED the belief in a supernatural scorekeeper to keep them in line. But not all. Some actually care about others for their own sake, rather than because a priest has told them they should.[/quote]
Lets say that I was the CEO of an American Car Company during the bail outs and I was raised with christian values but later became a naturalist and my wife and friends have the same view I do now. What reason do I have for not taking advantage of the company and getting a huge severance package if I can get away with it. Sure I might donate some money to charitable causes but only because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with it being right because there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and evil in my viewpoint.(assuming I was this CEO who was a naturalist.)[/quote]

How about helping others, not because it’s “good” according to a supernatural scorekeeper, but because you actually love them?

[/quote]

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you tell your family you love them instead of “I have an evolutionary developed chemical reaction in my brain that makes me tend to want to protect you and being around you releases a chemical that makes me feel like I?m eating a lot of chocolate”, you aren?t a real atheist.[/quote]
You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?[/quote]

Some people are going to love others, regardless of whether or not a supernatural scorekeeper tells them to do so. Feel free to believe it’s impossible to love your children, your spouse, or your neighbor unless your god commands you. I fundamentally disagree that this is the case for everyone, and find it sad that it is the case for some.[/quote]
The only possible reason why people can love to being with is because God is love. I don’t love because he commanded to but love because of who he is. In God showing his love towards us not that we loved him but that he loved us that he died for us while we were still sinners.

I am glad that you who claim naturalism can be a valid position to take still love and care about people even though naturalism denies the personhood of the people you love and even love itself. This shows a conflict between mind and heart and eventually one will win out and change the other, hopefully for the better as they cannot be in perpetual conflict.

As insane as this sounds, even though I only know you from the internet I am still concerned for you. I feel that the internet has allowed people (for the worse and the better) to really show who they are on the inside compared to people one meets in real life when they just know them superficially.

357

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Honestly from the confines of a naturalistic worldview I see no place for value judgements. In this worldview the wind blowing through the trees making a rustling sound through the leaves has no value judgement different than the apparent concern I have for other people even if they are distinct events. Naturalism implicitly denies personhood and just reduces everything to processes of chemistry and physics which are amoral. In this worldview one may still have an explanation as to why humans and lions behave the way they do but good and bad, and right and wrong do not enter the picture.[/quote]

That was a beautiful description you gave there. I actually don’t know that much about naturalism, but I think every living organism has the capability to distinct between good and bad. They protect themselves from the bad and search the good. That is the basis for good and bad. For us humans, as societal animals with effective means of communication this is of course a little bit more complicated. But therefore, both you and I are capable of knowing good and bad, provided we have grown up in a sane environment. Therefore, second time, christianity has its uses.

358

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:<<< As insane as this sounds, even though I only know you from the internet I am still concerned for you. >>>[/quote] This Kaalepi guy is regularly in my prayers. He has a soft heart and conscience that is possibly being pricked by the Holy Spirit.

359

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]
I can’t talk about myself, yet I can imagine a professing christian(whether he really was one or not is a topic for another thread which I have no desire to participate in yet do lean towards a position) who is now an apostate who is now a naturalist going through a similar experience that you have gone through.

But what this person fails to realize if hes honest with himself is that he has no rationally compelling reason to be good, he can only argue to be good from a pragmatic standpoint and appealing to people’s pragmatic sensibilities yet this assumes people are playing by the same rules. If these people think they can get away with it his pragmatic argument wouldn’t be very compelling for it doesn’t give a reason why one should be good. Secondly the question of what is good comes up, since from his viewpoint goodness isn’t grounded in anything objective and whats good for one is different for another one.

If this person truly believed in naturalism then good and love are just illusion and has no barrier to pursue any pleasure he can get away with. If he could get away with it, why shouldn’t he.[/quote]

The scenario asked what you would do if there really was no god or afterlife, not what you would do if there was but you were just rationalizing your way through life to pretend there wasn’t.

So again, I ask: What would YOU do in that reality? Would you do whatever you could get away with, with no thought for the consequences to other people? Would you be utterly selfish?

I have no doubt that many would do just that. Many NEED the belief in a supernatural scorekeeper to keep them in line. But not all. Some actually care about others for their own sake, rather than because a priest has told them they should.[/quote]
Lets say that I was the CEO of an American Car Company during the bail outs and I was raised with christian values but later became a naturalist and my wife and friends have the same view I do now. What reason do I have for not taking advantage of the company and getting a huge severance package if I can get away with it. Sure I might donate some money to charitable causes but only because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with it being right because there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and evil in my viewpoint.(assuming I was this CEO who was a naturalist.)[/quote]

How about helping others, not because it’s “good” according to a supernatural scorekeeper, but because you actually love them?

[/quote]

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you tell your family you love them instead of “I have an evolutionary developed chemical reaction in my brain that makes me tend to want to protect you and being around you releases a chemical that makes me feel like I?m eating a lot of chocolate”, you aren?t a real atheist.[/quote]
You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?[/quote]

Some people are going to love others, regardless of whether or not a supernatural scorekeeper tells them to do so. Feel free to believe it’s impossible to love your children, your spouse, or your neighbor unless your god commands you. I fundamentally disagree that this is the case for everyone, and find it sad that it is the case for some.[/quote]
The only possible reason why people can love to being with is because God is love. I don’t love because he commanded to but love because of who he is. In God showing his love towards us not that we loved him but that he loved us that he died for us while we were still sinners.

I am glad that you who claim naturalism can be a valid position to take still love and care about people even though naturalism denies the personhood of the people you love and even love itself. This shows a conflict between mind and heart and eventually one will win out and change the other, hopefully for the better as they cannot be in perpetual conflict.

As insane as this sounds, even though I only know you from the internet I am still concerned for you. I feel that the internet has allowed people (for the worse and the better) to really show who they are on the inside compared to people one meets in real life when they just know them superficially.[/quote]

It’s only a conflict if you believe love is supernatural in origin. I don’t believe that, and thus have no problem loving people despite my lack of belief in a supernatural being.

360

[quote]forlife wrote:

You keep appealing to good and love as if they are concrete objects within the worldview of naturalism when it just isn’t so. Why is helping others one day not equivalent going on a chocolate binge another day if I am this CEO?

Some people are going to love others, regardless of whether or not a supernatural scorekeeper tells them to do so. Feel free to believe it’s impossible to love your children, your spouse, or your neighbor unless your god commands you. I fundamentally disagree that this is the case for everyone, and find it sad that it is the case for some.[/quote]

Okay then, what is love?