[quote]pat wrote:
“He’ll rip your eyes out and make you eat you’re own lips.”
“Sargent D. is coming and you’re on his list…”
Ahh…such poetry, makes even Bob Dylan shed a tear.[/quote]
I bet he does.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The West has ruined itself because it no longer accepts or believes any moral absolutes. Islamists DO have moral absolutes, which makes them a determined and belligerent force in the face of a wavering relativistic West.
Until the West rediscovers the morality of Reason (which is more powerful than hogwash Islamist mystic morality), the Muslims will continue to move in on Europe.[/quote]
True words these.
Benedict calls this the “dictatorship of relativism.”
How did the West become so confused as to believe that “tolerance” is merely a valueless “openness” untempered by positive values - where we abandon our powers of judgement & discernment? Indeed, tolerance only means something if it also includes positive moral values.
[quote]pat wrote:
I think you under estimate the Europeans. They tend to be pretty passive, but they are very, very, very attached to their culture. [/quote]
Pat, I’d like to believe this, but I’m afraid that European culture has been nearly viscerated of its Christian origins. No culture can thrive - or even exist for very long - in a moral & religious vacuum.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
pat wrote:
I think you under estimate the Europeans. They tend to be pretty passive, but they are very, very, very attached to their culture.
Pat, I’d like to believe this, but I’m afraid that European culture has been nearly viscerated of its Christian origins. No culture can thrive - or even exist for very long - in a moral & religious vacuum. [/quote]
…ofcourse it can, and ofcourse it will. I’m glad we’re getting rid of this Christian heritage you speak about. We’re eagerly anticipating the day the US comes to it’s senses and joins us in a new age of reason…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…ofcourse it can, and ofcourse it will. I’m glad we’re getting rid of this Christian heritage you speak about. We’re eagerly anticipating the day the US comes to it’s senses and joins us in a new age of reason…
[/quote]
Your “new age of reason” will merely see the religious impulse reemerging in ways that are entirely irrational: for example, perhaps a vague, spiritual belief permeating every aspect of life, exhibiting a faith in such things as: the reified state, or in a global apparatus to administer the “public” will, or in scientism, or in anthropogenetic global warming, etc.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Your “new age of reason” will merely see the religious impulse reemerging in ways that are entirely irrational: for example, perhaps a vague, spiritual belief permeating every aspect of life, exhibiting a faith in such things as: the reified state, or in a global apparatus to administer the “public” will, or in scientism, or in anthropogenetic global warming, etc. [/quote]
Ha! Mendel meets Boas meets Gore. That oughta be a riot.
Having been greatly exposed to intellectuals and philosophers in Europe, I found it particularly disturbing that you would speak of “scientism”. Have you ever spent any amount of time in Continental Europe?
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Benedict calls this the “dictatorship of relativism.”
How did the West become so confused as to believe that “tolerance” is merely a valueless “openness” untempered by positive values - where we abandon our powers of judgement & discernment? Indeed, tolerance only means something if it also includes positive moral values. [/quote]
I would not be so harsh on relatavism. Relativism is one of the great things about the West. It means that there is no center of authority that can absolutely tell you what to do and what is right. Relativism is a centerpiece of democracy.
Pope Benedict would like the world to be governed by his Catholic beliefs. FUCK Pope Benedict. He doesn’t like relativism, because he would like for everybody to follow his conception of the world.
However, the problem is not relativism, per se, but pushing relativism to the point where we accept those with a despotic mindset to usurp our democratic values.
[quote]lixy wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Your “new age of reason” will merely see the religious impulse reemerging in ways that are entirely irrational: for example, perhaps a vague, spiritual belief permeating every aspect of life, exhibiting a faith in such things as: the reified state, or in a global apparatus to administer the “public” will, or in scientism, or in anthropogenetic global warming, etc.
Ha! Mendel meets Boas meets Gore. That oughta be a riot.
[/quote]
You do know what “or” means, right?
[quote]
Having been greatly exposed to intellectuals and philosophers in Europe, I found it particularly disturbing that you would speak of “scientism”. Have you ever spent any amount of time in Continental Europe?[/quote]
Yes and half my family lives there. One of them is a philosopher. And the others could easily be mistaken for intellectuals, on a good day. Ummmm…what’s your point? What, do you think Europeans are somehow immune from scientism? Besides, these were only thrown out as possibilities, Lixy, and you know it.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
pat wrote:
I think you under estimate the Europeans. They tend to be pretty passive, but they are very, very, very attached to their culture.
Pat, I’d like to believe this, but I’m afraid that European culture has been nearly viscerated of its Christian origins. No culture can thrive - or even exist for very long - in a moral & religious vacuum.
…ofcourse it can, and ofcourse it will. I’m glad we’re getting rid of this Christian heritage you speak about. We’re eagerly anticipating the day the US comes to it’s senses and joins us in a new age of reason…
[/quote]
Until you are overrun by a different religious group that doesn’t share your values.
[quote]entheogens wrote:
I would not be so harsh on relatavism. Relativism is one of the great things about the West. It means that there is no center of authority that can absolutely tell you what to do and what is right. Relativism is a centerpiece of democracy.
[/quote]
Where, my good man, do you come up with this stuff?
And, “Relativism is a centerpiece of democracy” ?? I think you mean tolerance. Relativism is not a positive value - it is empty, a cipher. Is a pose to mask a certain kind of bigotry and intolerance too ashamed to show its face.
So?
There’s the intolerance behind your relativism.
He doesn’t like relativism because it is devoid of positive value.
This thought is so twisted and incoherent it should be taken out and mercilessly flogged.
I define relativism as the view that there is no absolute power to which we may appeal for behaviour/laws/ethics. I agree with that.
Let’s put in in historical context. For how many hundreds of years did the Catholic Church have a complete monopoly on ethics/morality/behavior???
But, at times slowly, and at times rapidly the individual was becoming conscious of itself, its wants, needs, desires and revolted against the Catholic tyranny.
Then the question arose, if there is a God, how do we know what he wants? What really gives the Catholic church the authority to declare itself a messenger of God?
The opposite of relativism is absolutism. Is that what you want? A return to a central authroity that tells you hwo you should act?
I think most people here dont want that (am I wrong?) However, democracy should not be so democratic that it allows democracy to be usurped? We, in the West, should not be so relativistic that we will allow a despotic power to eliminate relativism. It’s not a question of ridding ourselves of relativism. It’s a question of degree.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
lixy wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Your “new age of reason” will merely see the religious impulse reemerging in ways that are entirely irrational: for example, perhaps a vague, spiritual belief permeating every aspect of life, exhibiting a faith in such things as: the reified state, or in a global apparatus to administer the “public” will, or in scientism, or in anthropogenetic global warming, etc.
Ha! Mendel meets Boas meets Gore. That oughta be a riot.
You do know what “or” means, right? [/quote]
Yes.
It’s the opposite of “and”.
Which in French is translated as “et”.
Which has no business inside the word anthropogenic.
I’m cheap. I make jokes about people using words they can’t spell.
You made that perfectly clear. But it’s such a far fetched idea that I just had to challenge the logic that lead you to such a conclusion. So, to be sure we’re on the same page, I’ll ask you to define what you mean by “scientism”. We can take it from there.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Pope Benedict would like the world to be governed by his Catholic beliefs.
So?
[/quote]
So, I don’t want a return of Catholic tyranny. We already had that for more than a thousand years. Those who would like to resuscitate the former power of the Catholic Church are not so much critical of Islamic theocracies as they are jealous.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
pat wrote:
I think you under estimate the Europeans. They tend to be pretty passive, but they are very, very, very attached to their culture.
Pat, I’d like to believe this, but I’m afraid that European culture has been nearly viscerated of its Christian origins. No culture can thrive - or even exist for very long - in a moral & religious vacuum.
…ofcourse it can, and ofcourse it will. I’m glad we’re getting rid of this Christian heritage you speak about. We’re eagerly anticipating the day the US comes to it’s senses and joins us in a new age of reason…
[/quote]
Why? So our birthrates can fall even further into oblivion? In which case we HAVE to replace native peoples with large amounts of immigrants who often don’t give a damn about “European values.”
…why are some of you concerned about the changing of culture? Every culture changes in one way or another, and attempting to prevent change is foolish imo. Adapt or die, that’s a fact of life. It’s just weird that pollution, clear-cutting, extinction of species due to human involvement and the like are brushed off as if it’s nothing, but as soon as culture is affected in some way, it’s the end of the world…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…why are some of you concerned about the changing of culture? Every culture changes in one way or another, and attempting to prevent change is foolish imo. Adapt or die, that’s a fact of life. It’s just weird that pollution, clear-cutting, extinction of species due to human involvement and the like are brushed off as if it’s nothing, but as soon as culture is affected in some way, it’s the end of the world…
[/quote]
Well, if you’re simply not concerned, than you wouldn’t be concerned if a traditional western culture is maintained.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…why are some of you concerned about the changing of culture? Every culture changes in one way or another, and attempting to prevent change is foolish imo. Adapt or die, that’s a fact of life. It’s just weird that pollution, clear-cutting, extinction of species due to human involvement and the like are brushed off as if it’s nothing, but as soon as culture is affected in some way, it’s the end of the world…
Well, if you’re simply not concerned, than you wouldn’t be concerned if a traditional western culture is maintained.
[/quote]
…that’s true, but what western culture are you talking about? Are you suggesting that american culture Ãs western culture?
[quote]entheogens wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Benedict calls this the “dictatorship of relativism.”
How did the West become so confused as to believe that “tolerance” is merely a valueless “openness” untempered by positive values - where we abandon our powers of judgement & discernment? Indeed, tolerance only means something if it also includes positive moral values.
I would not be so harsh on relatavism. Relativism is one of the great things about the West. It means that there is no center of authority that can absolutely tell you what to do and what is right. Relativism is a centerpiece of democracy.
Pope Benedict would like the world to be governed by his Catholic beliefs. FUCK Pope Benedict. He doesn’t like relativism, because he would like for everybody to follow his conception of the world.
However, the problem is not relativism, per se, but pushing relativism to the point where we accept those with a despotic mindset to usurp our democratic values.
[/quote]
Moral relativism doesn’t exist. Things are either right or they are wrong. Moral relativism is just a way to intellectualize debauchery, it is a farce, it only exists in peoples minds who thrive on excusism.
Second, pulling facts out of your ass does not actually count as facts. That is unless your are arguing for “factual relativism” too. Or “reality relativism”. Things are what they are unless I don’t like them, so then I will revise them to make them like I’d like them to be.
[quote]pat wrote:
Moral relativism doesn’t exist. Things are either right or they are wrong. Moral relativism is just a way to intellectualize debauchery, it is a farce, it only exists in peoples minds who thrive on excusism.
[/quote]
…why is government sanctioned murder ‘right’ and plain 'ol murder ‘wrong’?
…why is it when your government tortures it’s ‘right’, but when the enemy does it, it’s ‘wrong’?
…why is the expansion of one beliefsystem [democracy for instance] ‘right’, but an influx of another ‘wrong’?
'Bout time for that third world war…