Batman vs Wolverine

[Pootie_Tang]

I read through this entire thread and a couple points:

Spider-man is one of Marvels best hand to hand fighters. He has taken down the X-men by himself. Im not talking one on one. Im talking all at the same time! For a reference see Secret Wars. He had Reed Richards ready to suck his cock in Civil War, As he dodged all of his attempts to hit him then kicked him in his grill. He has THE best collection of villians out side of Batman of any comic book character. The only person(hero) who has beaten spiderman on a consistent basis is Daredevil.

As for the Batman v Wolverine debate. For those who say if batman didn’t use his gadgets he would lose, well isnt the same thing true for Wolverine if he doesn’t use his claws? With out his claws Batman has a MASSIVE reach advantage at 6’2" to wolverines 5’ 3".

As far as the setting for the fight is concerned, The vast MAJORITY of Batman’s fights are spontaneous. Yet he still pulls out the victory. When he fought Superman in Hush, it was spontaneous. He used his environment and whatever was in his utility belt which happens to be a Kryptonite ring. He held his own in that fight and pulled out a trump card to win in the end.

Wolverine is a baddass and a great fighter but he just doesnt have what it takes to take on The Bat.

Conversely I don’t think Batman can stand a snowballs chance in hell against Spider-man in a spontaneous fight. With time to plan maybe, but spidey is no slouch.

[Fuzzyapple]

I think the noobs are basing their views on the movies that have came out. The movies are so off base it’s stupid.

[The_other_Rob]

Too true. Origins was a definite improvement on the shambles that was X-3 though.

[3hitter]

Are we talking about this Batman? Cause he was a badass.

[WolBarret]

Look:

Batman’s skills are: Intelligence, Willpower, Tactics, and Fighting Skills

-He is rarely owned in a fight and if he was, it was with proper planning.

Wolverine’s skills are: his mutant powers

-He is a skilled fighter, but people like Iron Fist are better fighters than him because that is their main skill and they focus on it.

-Wolverine doesn’t spend every waking hour training, he spends his time smoking and getting into bar fights

-Bullseye has beaten Wolverine in a fight, Spider-man, on more than one occasion, has beaten Wolverine and one of those times is with the X-men, and Captain America is a better fighter than Wolverine

Also, Batman doesn’t kill, but he knows how. But think about it. Batman fights so damn well that he can beat your ass and keep you alive. He pulls his punches against thugs, but when he fights clayface or Killer croc, he turns up the volume. But he’s so bad ass, he can put you down without killing.

[WolBarret]

I sure do miss the art of the 80’s and 90’s.

[roybot]

[quote]Pootie Tang wrote:

As for the Batman v Wolverine debate. For those who say if batman didn’t use his gadgets he would lose, well isnt the same thing true for Wolverine if he doesn’t use his claws? With out his claws Batman has a MASSIVE reach advantage at 6’2" to wolverines 5’ 3".

[/quote]

Wolverine’s claws are part of him no matter what: even if you take away his adamantium skeleton, he still has bone claws. They aren’t some accessory, unlike Batman’s utility belt.

[The_other_Rob]

But wolverine has already spent the entire length of batmans life training; in Japan where he is supposed to have mastered nearly every martial art and in the weapon x program as well as various special forces. The guy has fought in more battles than days batman has lived. Also as I stated earlier wolverine has bested captain america before. I’ve already stated my opinion, I just want to clear up any misconceptions.

[AJL_1240]

[quote]Fuzzyapple wrote:
This debate is nuts.[/quote]

I agree.

[roybot]

[quote]WolBarret wrote:
Look:

Batman’s skills are: Intelligence, Willpower, Tactics, and Fighting Skills

-He is rarely owned in a fight and if he was, it was with proper planning.

Wolverine’s skills are: his mutant powers

-He is a skilled fighter, but people like Iron Fist are better fighters than him because that is their main skill and they focus on it. [/quote]

Actually, Wolverine’s martial arts abilities are on a par with Shang-Chi’s, which are more or less equal to Iron Fist’s: back in the day, Iron Fist, Shang-Chi and Bronze Tiger were indisputably the most skilled martial artists in the Marvel universe. They were said to be equal to Batman (no, I didn’t need to look that up). Thanks to recent retcons, Wolverine’s skills have been brought up to the level of Shang -Chi. You can work the rest out. Another reason you should actually read up on Wolverine’s development over the last ten years.[quote]

-Wolverine doesn’t spend every waking hour training, he spends his time smoking and getting into bar fights[/quote]

He doesn’t have to. Batman can train round the clock and still not have caught up to Wolverine. Extended lifespan, remember? Wolverine smokes and drinks heavily because he can - it doesn’t affect him. It’s not a sign of laziness or lack of discipline…[quote]

-Bullseye has beaten Wolverine in a fight, Spider-man, on more than one occasion, has beaten Wolverine and one of those times is with the X-men, and Captain America is a better fighter than Wolverine

Also, Batman doesn’t kill, but he knows how. But think about it. Batman fights so damn well that he can beat your ass and keep you alive. He pulls his punches against thugs, but when he fights clayface or Killer croc, he turns up the volume. But he’s so bad ass, he can put you down without killing.[/quote]

Nevertheless, a guy that refuses to kill on principle is at a distinct disadvantage against a stone-cold killer like Wolverine, whose natural reaction is to rip shit up. Batman does not fight against his killer instinct. To kill criminals in cold blood is his absolute fucking worst nightmare.

There was a three-part Elseworlds storyline where Batman squared off against Dracula. Batman wasted Drac but got bitten and became a vampire (which is where my earlier reference to ‘Vampire Batman’ came from) He started murdering and infecting his Rogue’s Gallery, and was so repulsed by what he did that he begged Alfred and Gordon to destroy him.

So no, ‘mainstream’ Batman doesn’t fight an ever-present urge to kill. However, Wolverine does. They are like polar opposites. Batman’s worst fear is to kill indiscriminately - that was the whole basis of the Elseworlds story. It’s a helluva read - I recommend it. It’s worth getting hold to see how superhuman powers (or in this case, supernatural powers), could corrupt Batman.

Edit: one inaccuracy here: Bronze Tiger is from the DCU, not Marvel. I’m doing this from memory and I’m a tad rusty. It is true that he was the only hero in the DCU whose martial arts were equal to Batman’s, and both were said to be of an equal skill level to Iron Fist and Shang-Chi.

[WolBarret]

[quote]The other Rob wrote:
But wolverine has already spent the entire length of batmans life training; in Japan where he is supposed to have mastered nearly every martial art and in the weapon x program as well as various special forces. The guy has fought in more battles than days batman has lived. Also as I stated earlier wolverine has bested captain america before. I’ve already stated my opinion, I just want to clear up any misconceptions.[/quote]

Does his martial arts come into play when he has the claws? When I see him fight, it is “claw, claw, yell!, claw”. Batman would find a way to beat him if Wolvie fights like an idiot.

My official vote has always been “its a toss up, but Batman would find a way”. He’d find a way.

And I’ll look up that incident where Wolverine beat Captain America one on one.

[WolBarret]

[quote]roybot wrote:
WolBarret wrote:
Look:

Batman’s skills are: Intelligence, Willpower, Tactics, and Fighting Skills

-He is rarely owned in a fight and if he was, it was with proper planning.

Wolverine’s skills are: his mutant powers

-He is a skilled fighter, but people like Iron Fist are better fighters than him because that is their main skill and they focus on it.

Actually, Wolverine’s martial arts abilities are on a par with Shang-Chi’s, which are more or less equal to Iron Fist’s: back in the day, Iron Fist, Shang-Chi and Bronze Tiger were indisputably the most skilled martial artists in the Marvel universe. They were said to be equal to Batman (no, I didn’t need to look that up). Thanks to recent retcons, Wolverine’s skills have been brought up to the level of Shang -Chi. You can work the rest out. Another reason you should actually read up on Wolverine’s development over the last ten years.

-Wolverine doesn’t spend every waking hour training, he spends his time smoking and getting into bar fights

He doesn’t have to. Batman can train round the clock and still not have caught up to Wolverine. Extended lifespan, remember? Wolverine smokes and drinks heavily because he can - it doesn’t affect him. It’s not a sign of laziness or lack of discipline…

-Bullseye has beaten Wolverine in a fight, Spider-man, on more than one occasion, has beaten Wolverine and one of those times is with the X-men, and Captain America is a better fighter than Wolverine

Also, Batman doesn’t kill, but he knows how. But think about it. Batman fights so damn well that he can beat your ass and keep you alive. He pulls his punches against thugs, but when he fights clayface or Killer croc, he turns up the volume. But he’s so bad ass, he can put you down without killing.

Nevertheless, a guy that refuses to kill on principle is at a distinct disadvantage against a stone-cold killer like Wolverine, whose natural reaction is to rip shit up. Batman does not fight against his killer instinct. To kill criminals in cold blood is his absolute fucking worst nightmare.

There was a three-part Elseworlds storyline where Batman squared off against Dracula. Batman wasted Drac but got bitten and became a vampire (which is where my earlier reference to ‘Vampire Batman’ came from) He started murdering and infecting his Rogue’s Gallery, and was so repulsed by what he did that he begged Alfred and Gordon to destroy him.

So no, ‘mainstream’ Batman doesn’t fight an ever-present urge to kill. However, Wolverine does. They are like polar opposites. Batman’s worst fear is to kill indiscriminately - that was the whole basis of the Elseworlds story. It’s a helluva read - I recommend it. It’s worth getting hold to see how superhuman powers (or in this case, supernatural powers), could corrupt Batman.[/quote]

We’ll say that he is now currently on par with Iron Fist. Does Wolverine ever use his Hapkido or Ju-jitsu skills in battle or does he pop out the claws and swing for the fences? The claws are very deadly, but the point those weapons comes out, Batman will say fuck this and will find a way to neutralize them…let’s say tie his hands up so he can’t slash away at the bat-rope or whatever is binding him.

And yes, he has a expanded lifespan. But even after the CIA training and the Samurai training, he has lost battle against Hand assassins and regular humans. And when I mean lost, I mean captured or knocked out. I will give the edge to Batman in a fight because he knows his limitations and he can quickly decipher the best way to beat a opponent.

Its still a toss up, but I give the edge to Batman.

I understand your point about the killer instinct of Wolverine, but all of Batman’s villains are trying to murder him. Always. He deals with it and figures out a way to take them out with killing them.

And if you give me a few days, I can go to Barnes and Noble and read the hog slop that is “Wolverine”. It won’t be hard to find, he’s on every cover.

[roybot]

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

We’ll say that he is now currently on par with Iron Fist. Does Wolverine ever use his Hapkido or Ju-jitsu skills in battle or does he pop out the claws and swing for the fences? [/quote]

There are many examples of Wolverine using hand-to-hand combat. You just need to read the comics with an open mind. Don’t let your hatred of fanboys cheat you out of what might be a very enjoyable reading experience.[quote]

The claws are very deadly, but the point those weapons comes out, Batman will say fuck this and will find a way to neutralize them…let’s say tie his hands up so he can’t slash away at the bat-rope or whatever is binding him.[/quote]

You’re making the mistake of assuming Wolverine relies on his claws alone. That might have been true a decade ago, but he’s evolved since then. I’ve already told you that Wolverine is no mere brawler - with or without the use of claws, he is considered to be among the top martial artists in either DC or Marvel continuities.

His mutation give him abilities that aren’t immediately obvious - for example, Batman cannot acquire a level of experience close to Wolverine’s because he won’t live long enough to do so.

You seem to be basing your argument on what you’ve read years ago, and not taking into account how Wolverine has developed over the last few years.

Look at how lame Batman was when he was first created: he had none of the strengths that fans associate him with nowadays. Sure, the fundamentals of the character were there - wealth, basic detective skills and fighting ability. But he was a product of that era and would be laughable today. Look how many Batman spoofs based on the old comic books are on the net these days. So many of his stories are dated, but it doesn’t diminish the quality of what comes later. Every hero undergoes some sort of revision over the years - that’s how they stay fresh. Neither Batman or Wolverine are exempt from that.

In that respect, it’s no suprise that Batman is generally considered to be more complex than Wolverine - he has forty years worth of character development on Wolverine.

[quote]
And yes, he has a expanded lifespan. But even after the CIA training and the Samurai training, he has lost battle against Hand assassins and regular humans. And when I mean lost, I mean captured or knocked out. I will give the edge to Batman in a fight because he knows his limitations and he can quickly decipher the best way to beat a opponent.

Its still a toss up, but I give the edge to Batman.

I understand your point about the killer instinct of Wolverine, but all of Batman’s villains are trying to murder him. Always. He deals with it and figures out a way to take them out with killing them.

And if you give me a few days, I can go to Barnes and Noble and read the hog slop that is “Wolverine”. It won’t be hard to find, he’s on every cover. [/quote]

Seriously, it’s worth reading up on Wolverine. Don’t pass judgement on him just because some emo kids watch the movies and call themselves fans, but get disappointed by the comic book because ‘Logan doesn’t look like Hugh Jackman’…that shit annoys me as well. I really hope they don’t fuck the Green Lantern movie - then again, knowing Warner Bros. it could go either way…

[ZeroSleep]

Batman vs Raven?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/40/Batmanlee.png

vs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/84/Ravenoyl.png

Batman vs Darkseid?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/8849/690919-batman_vs_darkseid_super.jpg

[WolBarret]

[quote]roybot wrote:
WolBarret wrote:

We’ll say that he is now currently on par with Iron Fist. Does Wolverine ever use his Hapkido or Ju-jitsu skills in battle or does he pop out the claws and swing for the fences?

There are many examples of Wolverine using hand-to-hand combat. You just need to read the comics with an open mind. Don’t let your hatred of fanboys cheat you out of what might be a very enjoyable reading experience.

The claws are very deadly, but the point those weapons comes out, Batman will say fuck this and will find a way to neutralize them…let’s say tie his hands up so he can’t slash away at the bat-rope or whatever is binding him.

You’re making the mistake of assuming Wolverine relies on his claws alone. That might have been true a decade ago, but he’s evolved since then. I’ve already told you that Wolverine is no mere brawler - with or without the use of claws, he is considered to be among the top martial artists in either DC or Marvel continuities.

His mutation give him abilities that aren’t immediately obvious - for example, Batman cannot acquire a level of experience close to Wolverine’s because he won’t live long enough to do so.

You seem to be basing your argument on what you’ve read years ago, and not taking into account how Wolverine has developed over the last few years.

Look at how lame Batman was when he was first created: he had none of the strengths that fans associate him with nowadays. Sure, the fundamentals of the character were there - wealth, basic detective skills and fighting ability. But he was a product of that era and would be laughable today. Look how many Batman spoofs based on the old comic books are on the net these days. So many of his stories are dated, but it doesn’t diminish the quality of what comes later. Every hero undergoes some sort of revision over the years - that’s how they stay fresh. Neither Batman or Wolverine are exempt from that.

In that respect, it’s no suprise that Batman is generally considered to be more complex than Wolverine - he has forty years worth of character development on Wolverine.

And yes, he has a expanded lifespan. But even after the CIA training and the Samurai training, he has lost battle against Hand assassins and regular humans. And when I mean lost, I mean captured or knocked out. I will give the edge to Batman in a fight because he knows his limitations and he can quickly decipher the best way to beat a opponent.

Its still a toss up, but I give the edge to Batman.

I understand your point about the killer instinct of Wolverine, but all of Batman’s villains are trying to murder him. Always. He deals with it and figures out a way to take them out with killing them.

And if you give me a few days, I can go to Barnes and Noble and read the hog slop that is “Wolverine”. It won’t be hard to find, he’s on every cover.

Seriously, it’s worth reading up on Wolverine/Green Lantern. Don’t pass judgement on him just because some emo kids watch the movies and call themselves fans, but get disappointed by the comic book because ‘Logan doesn’t look like Hugh Jackman’…that shit annoys me as well. I really hope they don’t fuck the Green Lantern movie - then again, knowing Warner Bros. it could go either way…

[/quote]

Batman edges out Wolverine for the win. Too many gadgets, too smart, too driven, and he’ll always find a way. Wolverine falls into his slash and gash method, which will cause him to lose.

I’ll read his book, but he gets too much face time anyway. He’s never been that integral in the marvel universe. I also believe Batman gets too much face time, but his makes more sense.

And yes, they will fuck up Hal Jordan. Ryan Reynolds isn’t Green Lantern. He’s Deadpool.

[roybot]

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

Batman edges out Wolverine for the win. Too many gadgets, too smart, too driven, and he’ll always find a way. Wolverine falls into his slash and gash method, which will cause him to lose.[/quote] That argument has been refuted several times already.

[quote]
I’ll read his book, but he gets too much face time anyway. He’s never been that integral in the marvel universe. [/quote] Considering he’s a relatively late starter in the Marvel universe, I think he’s more than made his mark. His popularity has eclipsed that of many longer-established characters and his commercial success is testament to that.

I also believe Batman gets too much face time, but his makes more sense.[/quote]If by face time you mean that both are over-exposed, well I agree. But that’s what happens when a character is popular - the publishers are going to milk that particular cash cow dry.

I don’t get your aversion to reading Wolverine comics because he’s on the cover or features heavily in them. Of course he’s going to be the focus of attention - he’s the title character. I’d feel pretty cheated if I opened up a book featuring my favourite character, only to find out they weren’t actually in it.

Comments like that suggest that you just don’t like him (dismissing his back story as ‘hog slop’ doesn’t help your cause, either). Which is fine, but it doesn’t bode well for an impartial and interesting discussion. I’d expect something a little more substantial than the ‘Wolverine will get angry, make a mistake and get owned by Batman’ argument you keep falling back on. This is really going nowhere until you get up to speed on what Wolverine really represents.

[roybot]

[quote]Tulkastaldo wrote:

Seriously though, In The Dark Knight Returns Batman used his vast wealth to build a bulky mech suit that allowed him to give Superman a pretty good beating. He could probably build a powerful Wolverine-proof suit if he had time and that would rock pretty hard.[/quote]

The armor he wore in The Dark Knight Returns was powered by Kryptonite: it wasn’t the suit itself that allowed him to trade blows with Superman.

The tricky part about building a mech suit to fight Wolverine is that fact that it would have to provide protection against his claws. As has already been stated, the only substance that could do that is more adamantium… and it would be impossible to find enough to build an entire suit.

Even Tony Stark has never been able to create adamantium armor, not even for his Hulkbuster suit. Granted, Wayne is wealthier than Stark, but adamantium is a resource that can’t be synthesized. There are a few rare examples of characters wearing the equivalent of adamantium armor (I believe there was a version of Ultron with adamantium skin), but their movements were severely limited and the disadvantages vastly outweighed the benefits.

Assuming Batman could produce such a suit, wearing it is going to severely compromise his speed - both his defensive and offensive skills will suffer as a result.

[Tulkastaldo]

[quote]roybot wrote:
Tulkastaldo wrote:

Seriously though, In The Dark Knight Returns Batman used his vast wealth to build a bulky mech suit that allowed him to give Superman a pretty good beating. He could probably build a powerful Wolverine-proof suit if he had time and that would rock pretty hard.

The armor he wore in The Dark Knight Returns was powered by Kryptonite: it wasn’t the suit itself that allowed him to trade blows with Superman.

I don’t recall kryptonite being involved in this particular instance actually. The sun was blocked for a long time by atmospheric dust from a nuclear bomb, which weakened Superman beforehand. (Plus Frank Miller hates him some Superman so he wanted to show him in the least flattering light possible while still maintaining his integrity) So I guess Batman could beat Wolverine as well, with the divine help of his patron saint, Frank Miller.

[rundymc]

Not sure about the suit being kryptonite-powered, but Batman was using kryptonite in some form during that fight. That was the difference maker in that fight, with the things you mentioned tilting the odds against Superman. And yeah, Superman was a total fag in DK Returns, he must have done up Miller’s mom or something, lols.

[roybot]

[quote]Tulkastaldo wrote:

I don’t recall kryptonite being involved in this particular instance actually. The sun was blocked for a long time by atmospheric dust from a nuclear bomb, which weakened Superman beforehand. [/quote]

Batman had spent years developing a synthetic form of kryptonite which he used during the battle. He was also helped by Green Arrow with kryptonite-tipped arrows. The details are vague, but kryptonite was definitely involved.[quote]

(Plus Frank Miller hates him some superman so he wanted to show him in the least flattering light possible while still maintaining his integrity) So I guess Batman could beat Wolverine as well, with the divine help of his patron saint, Frank Miller. [/quote]

Lol - touche!