[quote]ZEB wrote:
The majority of those killed were males between the ages of 18 and 30. The very demographic that fights our wars!
[/quote]
Exactly what % of that demographic is actually in the military? The majority of 18-30 year olds want nothing to do with war or the military unless it’s on XBox.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
We only needed ONE person who was carrying who could have reacted properly. And that one person could have saved many lives.
I can only refer back to my original point, these types of crimes did not take place as frequently when most Americans were armed more than a century ago.[/quote]
And then assume, hope, pray that he/she will be somewhere that violence likes this happens. Also, what was preventing someone like that from being there?
Lincoln was killed in a theater.
[quote]whatever2k wrote:
American gun laws, no thanks![/quote]
Irrelevant.
When everyone owns a wooden club, the bad guys have silex spears
when everyone owns a silex spear, the bad guys have bronze ones
when everyone owns a bronze spear, the bad guys have iron ones
when everyone owns iron weapons, the bad guys have guns.
when everyone will own a gun, the bad guys will simply got deadlier illegal ones.
now, I’m not saying that the carrying of firearms should be outlawed. There is a few good arguments in favor of concealed carry. but deterrence is not the best of them.
It may work for a while, but then the bad guys will adapt, as usual.
[quote]kamui wrote:
When everyone owns a wooden club, the bad guys have silex spears
when everyone owns a silex spear, the bad guys have bronze ones
when everyone owns a bronze spear, the bad guys have iron ones
when everyone owns iron weapons, the bad guys have guns.
when everyone will own a gun, the bad guys will simply got deadlier illegal ones.
now, I’m not saying that the carrying of firearms should be outlawed. There is a few good arguments in favor of concealed carry. but deterrence is not the best of them.
It may work for a while, but then the bad guys will adapt, as usual. [/quote]
Those that are left, maybe.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
When everyone owns a wooden club, the bad guys have silex spears
when everyone owns a silex spear, the bad guys have bronze ones
when everyone owns a bronze spear, the bad guys have iron ones
when everyone owns iron weapons, the bad guys have guns.
when everyone will own a gun, the bad guys will simply got deadlier illegal ones.
now, I’m not saying that the carrying of firearms should be outlawed. There is a few good arguments in favor of concealed carry. but deterrence is not the best of them.
It may work for a while, but then the bad guys will adapt, as usual. [/quote]
Those that are left, maybe.
[/quote]
Well, sure, but they are a renewable resource.
The best case for gun ownership however is that every government in the history of mankind has spiraled into a tyranny.
Well, except for those who were wiped out by tyrannies.
It is never a question of if, but when that happens and to provide for such an emergency, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
[quote]kamui wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
When everyone owns a wooden club, the bad guys have silex spears
when everyone owns a silex spear, the bad guys have bronze ones
when everyone owns a bronze spear, the bad guys have iron ones
when everyone owns iron weapons, the bad guys have guns.
when everyone will own a gun, the bad guys will simply got deadlier illegal ones.
now, I’m not saying that the carrying of firearms should be outlawed. There is a few good arguments in favor of concealed carry. but deterrence is not the best of them.
It may work for a while, but then the bad guys will adapt, as usual. [/quote]
Those that are left, maybe.
[/quote]
Well, sure, but they are a renewable resource.[/quote]
True, but would you leave someone defenseless because dirtbags are born every minute?
For the greater good?
Believe it or not I was actually with an individual at my midnight showing who is an LEO retired SEAL who was CCW. I would have never thought of this happening while I was at my movie though. I would assume it would be based on the area. If the city of the shooting is bad enough that you would feel the need to carry at midnight around a bunch of comic fans and nerds.
Something happened though mentally in this kids head. This situation should have been much much worse. He had over a 1000 rounds bought and paid for and had constructed multiple bombs, including one that was in the theater which is no longer being spoken about. He only killed 12, wounded 50. This means someone who is unfamiliar with a weapon. Why no one tried to take him down during a reload is a better question. The firing wasnt deliberate but random. I dont think he was really aiming. Just firing. He was dressed for full engagement with others and firearms. He didnt chase anyone down he went back and sat by his car. If anyone has read On Killing then you know there is more going on in his head than craziness. Cause crazy would have killed a lot more people. Someone posted a video of a 71 year old opening fire on two robbery suspects. Different situation. Those suspects it seemed had no intent to kill. Neither did the senior it seemed. Most robbery suspects dont have an intent to kill and will carry unload firearms (because if caught the penatly is different). This kid however had a complete different mind set. I think between the darkness, the mask and the gas he couldnt see anymore. But it was also stated he was only firing at people fleeing not sitting there, which means the game may have changed once he saw the reality of the situation, blood, bodies, face etc.
Somehow I dont think that his bullet proof vest is that big a deal .
That is not a get out of jail free card.
It is more like a get kicked by a donkey and have your rips broken card.
So yes, a few well placed shots would have done exactly that.
Though, teargas is no joke.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
When everyone owns a wooden club, the bad guys have silex spears
when everyone owns a silex spear, the bad guys have bronze ones
when everyone owns a bronze spear, the bad guys have iron ones
when everyone owns iron weapons, the bad guys have guns.
when everyone will own a gun, the bad guys will simply got deadlier illegal ones.
now, I’m not saying that the carrying of firearms should be outlawed. There is a few good arguments in favor of concealed carry. but deterrence is not the best of them.
It may work for a while, but then the bad guys will adapt, as usual. [/quote]
Those that are left, maybe.
[/quote]
Well, sure, but they are a renewable resource.[/quote]
True, but would you leave someone defenseless because dirtbags are born every minute?
For the greater good?[/quote]
No, i simply described an historical process, one that started millenia ago in neolithic times and that has become quasi-universal.
There is no way to end it, to reverse it nor to escape from it.
When a state prevents the citizens to own guns themselves, it has to protect them with a better-armed police force, which ultimately cause the same arm race.
Security-wise, the result is pretty much the same.
But, as you noted, on a political level, it makes a world of difference.
I am a strong advocate of gun control; in fact, I am totally in favor of disarming anyone who has any affiliation with government.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
It was just inaccurate to say 18-30 would be more likely to be armed than the 30-42 age range.
[/quote]
YOU said something on the order of people watching a comic book hero movie at 12:30 in the morning wouldn’t be the proper people to arm. And I pointed out that there were service men attending and that most of the people killed were between the ages of 18 and 30 which happens to be the exact age of most of our military. Smarten up and pay attention because you’re starting not to be worth my time.
I happen to run surveys and marketing studies for my company all the time. I’m very much in touch with what people like and what people are like in general. On top of that you don’t have to be a marketing genius to know that our fighting men are between ages 18 and 30.
And it’s very bigoted of you to assume because I am older than that age group to assume that I don’t know anything about them. But this is usually what you do, you run with outdated cliche’s and half truths.
Some around here have even called you dumb.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
The majority of those killed were males between the ages of 18 and 30. The very demographic that fights our wars!
[/quote]
Exactly what % of that demographic is actually in the military? The majority of 18-30 year olds want nothing to do with war or the military unless it’s on XBox. [/quote]
I didn’t say they were all in the military did I?
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
We only needed ONE person who was carrying who could have reacted properly. And that one person could have saved many lives.
I can only refer back to my original point, these types of crimes did not take place as frequently when most Americans were armed more than a century ago.[/quote]
And then assume, hope, pray that he/she will be somewhere that violence likes this happens. Also, what was preventing someone like that from being there?
Lincoln was killed in a theater.
[/quote]
Okay champ what did I say?
Go ahead tell me what I said and we can go from there.
Perhaps more disturbing were Newcombeâ??s comments on a segment on the American Family Association dedicated to understanding the shooting tragedy in Colorado. In taking about the deaths, Newcombe separated the afterlife fate of those who died as Christians and those who did not:
If a Christian dies early, if a Christian dies young, it seems tragic, but really it is not tragic because they are going to a wonderful place… on the other hand, if a person doesnâ??t know Jesus Christ… if they knowingly rejected Jesus Christ, then, basically, they are going to a terrible place.
Christians…
Don’t we have enough threads about gun rights vs gun control for the subject not to infiltrate this one?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
YOU said something on the order of people watching a comic book hero movie at 12:30 in the morning wouldn’t be the proper people to arm.
[/quote]
I said they would be less likely to be armed than other demographics given everyone older than 18 is ABLE to purchase and carry a gun.
If your idea was to issue free guns to everyone when they turn 18 then I was wrong and you were correct, but that also would mean your a bit crazy and a hypocrite since the average person should not carry a gun and giving away free stuff is a little liberal for you.
In Australia we changed the laws and made it almost impossible for people to own a gun. Even proffesional sport shooters need to jump through alot of hoops before they get to have their own gun.
IMO, it has made the country a safer place. We havent had a mass shooting since the laws have changed. The last mass shooting we had was in Tasmania, atleast 10 years ago now, before the laws changed.
Yes, by making guns illegal wont stop people killing people. But it does make it alot harder.
Let go off your guns America!
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I have not read every post, so apologies if I rehash too much. I just want to make a few points.
My understanding is that the shooter mounted the stage and did all his shooting from this elevated, up front position. While this gave him a good vantage point to see all of the theater, it also would have made him a great target had a few individuals been armed in the audience. Elevated and with no one behind him, an armed individual could get many shots off without aiming into or through a crowd.
Teargas is a bitch, but reactions vary with the individual and it does not incapacitate most. Witness many riot scenes on the news and youtube. Notice how many people who, with only a rag or shirt tied over their nose and mouth, run through the gas to pick up the canister and fling it back at the police. Also remember that this teargas was homemade and probably not near as good or as well dispersed as what the pros use.
Yes, he did have body armor, but this does not make one invincible. I am not sure of the grade or whether it was a standard issue vest, but either way he would still feel the impact and I assure you it would quickly change his state of mind. A 40 or 45 would have certainly got his attention. Also, one of these rounds to his arms or legs could have even ended it there.
Lastly, most guys who take the time to get a carry permit do a lot more than just hit the range a couple of times a year. A large percentage are active in the shooting sports. Organizations such as IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Association - Wikipedia) are very popular. Where I live there is a match held within short driving distance every week and I participate at least twice a month.
In the end, a disturbed individual committed an evil act. Maybe the outcome would have been the same, but were I able to go back and make a historical revision, I would love to have had a few armed and capable civilians in that crowd. As another poster said, at least the victims would have had some chance, someone there capable of at least trying to defend them.