Who said they’re just waiting? They’ve been doing a big investigation for years (they were on Marion Jones for 4 or 5 years and just finally got her).
[quote]JokerFMJ wrote:
Who said they’re just waiting? They’ve been doing a big investigation for years (they were on Marion Jones for 4 or 5 years and just finally got her).[/quote]
4 or 5 years…yes i suppose “waiting” is a relative term… another way to put that would be “getting paid” wouldn’t it ? and yet another way would be “getting paid with tax dollars”.
how much do you think it costs to pay a team of investigative attorneys for "4 or 5 years " anyway ?
anyway… it’s your money. i’m glad you think it’s well spent.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
3. Broke Aarons HR record while using (Hammering Hank is then a victim)
[/quote]
I’m going ignore most of the rest of your post since it was really just a sideways way of agreeing with me. It’s a BS investigation and it IS a witch hunt. But your above statement is just ignorant.
You can’t claim Hank is the victim here. He may very well be the beneficiary. How many countless pitchers have juiced and prevented other sluggers from getting near the record? Plenty, I’m sure, but we as fans may never know because this garbage investigation is only targeting Bonds and not overall steroid use in baseball. Hank has probably benefited from steroid use in baseball.
[quote]swivel wrote:
JokerFMJ wrote:
Who said they’re just waiting? They’ve been doing a big investigation for years (they were on Marion Jones for 4 or 5 years and just finally got her).
4 or 5 years…yes i suppose “waiting” is a relative term… another way to put that would be “getting paid” wouldn’t it ? and yet another way would be “getting paid with tax dollars”.
how much do you think it costs to pay a team of investigative attorneys for "4 or 5 years " anyway ?
anyway… it’s your money. i’m glad you think it’s well spent.
[/quote]
I know this might be news to you, but you can’t just go ahead and charge somebody with something… You have to investigate and find evidence in order to do that.
When you’re doing a larger investigation that involves a lot of people (including people like Bonds, Giambi, Palmeiro, Marion Jones, etc…) you’re not targeting one person specifically. So if you come across evidence that indicates someone lied under oath you then charge them with perjury.
I don’t see why you guys think this is all about Bonds. Just because ESPN only reports “ground breaking” news when it’s about Bonds doesn’t mean this investigation only deals with him.
[quote]JokerFMJ wrote:
swivel wrote:
JokerFMJ wrote:
Who said they’re just waiting? They’ve been doing a big investigation for years (they were on Marion Jones for 4 or 5 years and just finally got her).
4 or 5 years…yes i suppose “waiting” is a relative term… another way to put that would be “getting paid” wouldn’t it ? and yet another way would be “getting paid with tax dollars”.
how much do you think it costs to pay a team of investigative attorneys for "4 or 5 years " anyway ?
anyway… it’s your money. i’m glad you think it’s well spent.
I know this might be news to you, but you can’t just go ahead and charge somebody with something… You have to investigate and find evidence in order to do that.
When you’re doing a larger investigation that involves a lot of people (including people like Bonds, Giambi, Palmeiro, Marion Jones, etc…) you’re not targeting one person specifically. So if you come across evidence that indicates someone lied under oath you then charge them with perjury.
I don’t see why you guys think this is all about Bonds. Just because ESPN only reports “ground breaking” news when it’s about Bonds doesn’t mean this investigation only deals with him.[/quote]
The poeple who keep posting in support of the the goverment's handling of the investigation keep making mistakes in their arguments. Marion Jones was NOT investigated by our government, she was investigated by the International Olympic Committee, who got the job done without our Government time and tax dollars.
The fact that major league baseball was doing a shitty job on its part of cleaning up the sport does not mandate government investigation. Did MLB violate some federal law? Dysfunctional leadership is not a crime. This unprecedented large scale investigation by our Government-do our senators believe that since baseball is our "national pastime", (hah) that gave them the call of duty??
JokerFMJ, I do agree with you its not all about Bonds. They are targeting Bonds because he has come to be the poster boy for performance enhancement drugs in the minds of the American public, and because he broke some hallowed records, and because bringing him down will send the strongest message possible to baseball.
I really am regretting my OP: I sound like I keep defending Bonds since I see him as the victim of a governmental witch hunt, in a problem which should have been handled by his own sport. It's the greatest of paradoxes, since he represents so much of what I dislike in American athletes: super arrogant, dishonest, feels above the law, jerk to the fans who pay to see him, jealous (of McGwire and suddenly gains 40lbs of muscle), and about ten reasons more.
But if our country is happy with these years of time and money spent by our government, what’s next? A systematic investigation into every other sport where gear use is widespread and still slipping by the testing methonds in place by the sport involved? It could never end. A better solution is looking to find a different answer to the problem of performance enhancing drugs and sports. One T-Nation author suggested athletes be checked to see if they are healthy (all labs within normal limits, including hormones) and of course no illegal drugs like cocaine, heroin, etc. This way, if they are using something, it is minimal and not health-destroying. I don’t know if this is the answer, but it seems no one else has proposed an alternative. The current cat and mouse testing game will not stop widespread gear use, maybe just slow it down a little. But the hypocrisy, lies and facades our hero athletes have maintained will continue. Doc
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Dr.PowerClean wrote:
Did MLB violate some federal law? Dysfunctional leadership is not a crime.
But using illegal drugs is a crime. And trafficking those drugs is also a crime.
And of course lying under oath is a crime.
Should the government ignore all of this just because it’s baseball?[/quote]
Read the law. Possession and distribution without a license is a felony drug charge. Taking them is not a felony drug charge.
Tell me again where the government has a seat at this table?
Are you suggesting that MLB is engaged in illegal drug trafficking? If not - why mention it? IF you believe it is - then why is Bonds the center of attention? Are you implying that Bonds is now a drug dealer?
My 2 cents:
[a] Bonds is a flake. I’m not too interested in him.
[b] It’s screwed up that our government is/was investigating steriod use in baseball. Baseball should clean their own house with their own money.
[c] Bonds is in trouble becasue he lied to the grand jury. Lying to a grand jury is never a good idea.
Carlsbad
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
I’m somewhat surprised that you would say that. What I think is that this will be blown way out of proportion by the government and the media.
But I also said in that post that if Bonds took steroids and also lied under oath he should be punished…severely.
If you agree with that, then I guess we agree.[/quote]
Yes, we somewhat agree. We disagree on the severity and I don’t like that it seems that only Bonds is being targeted.
I’m not trying to justify any sets of rules. You’re completely missing the point. I don’t think Hank is a victim when his record more than likely benefited from steroid use. It may have fallen more than once and several times in the future if not for steroid use among pitchers. Why do you ignore this? Why is the investigation ignoring this?
[quote]JokerFMJ wrote:
swivel wrote:
JokerFMJ wrote:
Who said they’re just waiting? They’ve been doing a big investigation for years (they were on Marion Jones for 4 or 5 years and just finally got her).
4 or 5 years…yes i suppose “waiting” is a relative term… another way to put that would be “getting paid” wouldn’t it ? and yet another way would be “getting paid with tax dollars”.
how much do you think it costs to pay a team of investigative attorneys for "4 or 5 years " anyway ?
anyway… it’s your money. i’m glad you think it’s well spent.
I know this might be news to you, but you can’t just go ahead and charge somebody with something… You have to investigate and find evidence in order to do that.
When you’re doing a larger investigation that involves a lot of people (including people like Bonds, Giambi, Palmeiro, Marion Jones, etc…) you’re not targeting one person specifically. So if you come across evidence that indicates someone lied under oath you then charge them with perjury.
I don’t see why you guys think this is all about Bonds. Just because ESPN only reports “ground breaking” news when it’s about Bonds doesn’t mean this investigation only deals with him.[/quote]
this is pretty much the point: they’ve spent YEARS and MILLIONS on this and what did they get for it …vic conte goes up for 3 months ? anderson spends nearly a year in jail for NO REASON ?
and now, scrambling for their upcoming performance review, they come up with a (gasp) perjury charge??? what a bunch of losers. tell me you want these guys for your fantasy fed-league.
[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
JokerFMJ wrote:
swivel wrote:
JokerFMJ wrote:
Who said they’re just waiting? They’ve been doing a big investigation for years (they were on Marion Jones for 4 or 5 years and just finally got her).
4 or 5 years…yes i suppose “waiting” is a relative term… another way to put that would be “getting paid” wouldn’t it ? and yet another way would be “getting paid with tax dollars”.
how much do you think it costs to pay a team of investigative attorneys for "4 or 5 years " anyway ?
anyway… it’s your money. i’m glad you think it’s well spent.
I know this might be news to you, but you can’t just go ahead and charge somebody with something… You have to investigate and find evidence in order to do that.
When you’re doing a larger investigation that involves a lot of people (including people like Bonds, Giambi, Palmeiro, Marion Jones, etc…) you’re not targeting one person specifically. So if you come across evidence that indicates someone lied under oath you then charge them with perjury.
I don’t see why you guys think this is all about Bonds. Just because ESPN only reports “ground breaking” news when it’s about Bonds doesn’t mean this investigation only deals with him.
The poeple who keep posting in support of the the goverment's handling of the investigation keep making mistakes in their arguments. Marion Jones was NOT investigated by our government, she was investigated by the International Olympic Committee, who got the job done without our Government time and tax dollars.
The fact that major league baseball was doing a shitty job on its part of cleaning up the sport does not mandate government investigation. Did MLB violate some federal law? Dysfunctional leadership is not a crime. This unprecedented large scale investigation by our Government-do our senators believe that since baseball is our "national pastime", (hah) that gave them the call of duty??
JokerFMJ, I do agree with you its not all about Bonds. They are targeting Bonds because he has come to be the poster boy for performance enhancement drugs in the minds of the American public, and because he broke some hallowed records, and because bringing him down will send the strongest message possible to baseball.
I really am regretting my OP: I sound like I keep defending Bonds since I see him as the victim of a governmental witch hunt, in a problem which should have been handled by his own sport. It's the greatest of paradoxes, since he represents so much of what I dislike in American athletes: super arrogant, dishonest, feels above the law, jerk to the fans who pay to see him, jealous (of McGwire and suddenly gains 40lbs of muscle), and about ten reasons more.
But if our country is happy with these years of time and money spent by our government, what’s next? A systematic investigation into every other sport where gear use is widespread and still slipping by the testing methonds in place by the sport involved? It could never end. A better solution is looking to find a different answer to the problem of performance enhancing drugs and sports. One T-Nation author suggested athletes be checked to see if they are healthy (all labs within normal limits, including hormones) and of course no illegal drugs like cocaine, heroin, etc. This way, if they are using something, it is minimal and not health-destroying. I don’t know if this is the answer, but it seems no one else has proposed an alternative. The current cat and mouse testing game will not stop widespread gear use, maybe just slow it down a little. But the hypocrisy, lies and facades our hero athletes have maintained will continue. Doc
[/quote]
Correct me if i’m wrong, but didn’t MLB request a Congressional hearing in this matter?
This thread should get all of us to think deeply about what it right and wrong, and especially to take out issues of feelings (like hating Bonds, etc.)
Since Mick28 continues to get hung up with other posters (including me) regarding the rightfulness of a Congressional investigation into MLB, I did what I should have done in the beginning, do more research on the facts. The true felons, BALCO, were the initial target of legitimate federal investigation and is not in question here. The MLB investigation is. Researching the comments of the chairman, Rep Thomas M. Davis III (R-Va), he says “There’s a cloud over baseball, and perhaps a public discussion of the issues, with witnesses testifying under oath, can provide a glimpse of sunlight.” The ranking democrat, Rep Henry Waxman, quoted the main reason for the investigation as “Kids are dying from the use of steroids. And they’re looking up to Major League leaders…We have to stop it.”
These are not cohesive, intelligent mandates for Congressional action as it has unfolded, but fear and ignorance based kneejerk reactions. I have worked with 10,000 kids in the past thirty years, and I did not see ONE single case of a child/adolescent dying from steroids. I am NOT a steroid supporter, but the more I look at this issue the worse it reeks of intellectual dishonesty. This investigation was improperly conceived and mandated, PERIOD.
Things that happened after that, like Bonds lying under oath, are his burden to bear, and he should bear it. Doc
[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
This thread should get all of us to think deeply about what it right and wrong, and especially to take out issues of feelings (like hating Bonds, etc.)
Since Mick28 continues to get hung up with other posters (including me) regarding the rightfulness of a Congressional investigation into MLB, I did what I should have done in the beginning, do more research on the facts. The true felons, BALCO, were the initial target of legitimate federal investigation and is not in question here. The MLB investigation is. Researching the comments of the chairman, Rep Thomas M. Davis III (R-Va), he says “There’s a cloud over baseball, and perhaps a public discussion of the issues, with witnesses testifying under oath, can provide a glimpse of sunlight.” The ranking democrat, Rep Henry Waxman, quoted the main reason for the investigation as “Kids are dying from the use of steroids. And they’re looking up to Major League leaders…We have to stop it.”
These are not cohesive, intelligent mandates for Congressional action as it has unfolded, but fear and ignorance based kneejerk reactions. I have worked with 10,000 kids in the past thirty years, and I did not see ONE single case of a child/adolescent dying from steroids. I am NOT a steroid supporter, but the more I look at this issue the worse it reeks of intellectual dishonesty. This investigation was improperly conceived and mandated, PERIOD.
Things that happened after that, like Bonds lying under oath, are his burden to bear, and he should bear it. Doc[/quote]
nice post.
the government angle is, as usual, one of control and gaining power. it’s pretty unsettling the way people are willing to trade freedoms away for imagined safety…i’m talking about how easily people will submit to innocent before proven guilty ethics for the population @ large re: drug testing for athletes which is now including students and children. not to mention how olympic athletes are required to sign away their rights to defend a positive testing to obtain a license. let me say that bluntly : if you have a positive test you cannot defend yourself. this is where governments are taking our sports. fucking wake-up everyone.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
I think it’s pretty obvious that someone suspected that Bonds was using steroids. An investigation ensues to see if he was using to find out where he got them, if he got them. And who sold them to him.
They also apparently thought that there has been a problem in baseball for quite a while and wanted to get to the bottom of it, or at the very least scare the shit out of anyone who is using.
Does the government have a right to enforce the law?
Yea…sorry…but it does.
[/quote]
yes and because of attitudes exactly like yours people turn a blind eye to government “enforcement” all over the world. your attitude is ridiculous. completely innocent athletes the world over must now have their whereabouts documented for EVERYDAY OF THE YEAR to facilitate surprise testing. this in addition to already being forced to submit to pre-emptive searches(mandatory drug testing) amounts to a police state doesn’t it ? i’m not talking about athletes who’ve already been caught i’m talking about INNOCENT ONES. ALL OF THEM. this is what they’re trying to bring to the USA and barry bonds is merely a shoe-horn to help make it happen…
jessus the world you’re supporting is one where to become an athlete you sign away rights that every other citizen enjoys. wtf is wrong with you ?
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
swivel wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
I think it’s pretty obvious that someone suspected that Bonds was using steroids. An investigation ensues to see if he was using to find out where he got them, if he got them. And who sold them to him.
They also apparently thought that there has been a problem in baseball for quite a while and wanted to get to the bottom of it, or at the very least scare the shit out of anyone who is using.
Does the government have a right to enforce the law?
Yea…sorry…but it does.
yes and because of attitudes exactly like yours people turn a blind eye to government “enforcement” all over the world.
Easy there, I don’t think I want to take responsibility for the worlds Dictators.
Well…I guess you have to stretch things to make your point huh?
your attitude is ridiculous.
You think so huh?
Funny…I think your attitude is ridiculous.
Funny how two people can see things differently huh?
completely innocent athletes the world over must now have their whereabouts documented for EVERYDAY OF THE YEAR to facilitate surprise testing.
You’re blaming the wrong people. The ones who caused this are athletes who just can’t seem to play by the rules…that would be the steroid users.
Who is at fault because we have to lock our cars and houses when we leave them?
Would that be the fault of the Police or locksmiths? Or is it the fault of those who have made it unsafe to leave these things unattended.
Put your eye back on the ball now…
this in addition to already being forced to submit to pre-emptive searches(mandatory drug testing) amounts to a police state doesn’t it ? i’m not talking about athletes who’ve already been caught i’m talking about INNOCENT ONES. ALL OF THEM. this is what they’re trying to bring to the USA and barry bonds is merely a shoe-horn to help make it happen…
Again, make sure that you blame the drug users because it’s their fault.
jessus the world you’re supporting is one where to become an athlete you sign away rights that every other citizen enjoys. wtf is wrong with you ?
Ha ha…I can feel your angst and it’s kind of funny…sorry.
Okay…let’s examine exactly what’s wrong with me.
First, I’m sort of old fashion I guess. I like professional athletes in any given league to play by the same rules. How would you feel if certain players got an extra strike? It takes 4 strikes to strike out certain guys, not 3. That particular unfair advantage would be obvious and no one would like it. Sort of like the overwhelming majority of fans not liking certain players using performance enhancing drugs. You see when someone takes performance enhancing drugs they have an unfair advantage over the competition.
That’s pretty easy to follow.
Oh…I know that steroids are not going to make a lousy athlete a good one. But it will make a good athlete stronger and maybe faster as well. Thus the unfair advantage over those who are obeying the rules.
Now, don’t get me wrong, if next week they said that all athletes can now use performance enhancing drugs, the field would then be leveled. No one has an unfair, and often illegal edge.
And from that day forward their could be a little asterisks placed by their name if they break a record that was held long ago by a non-drug user.
Everybody is now happy. But, don’t hold your breath on that one, they’re not likely to allow performance enhancing drugs anytime soon.
So I guess if you want to become a pro athlete you have to submit to certain tests in some leagues. And you now have to do that because of the scum who cheated and couldn’t be trusted to play fairly.
Can you understand that?
No?
I don’t mind, someday you might.
[/quote]
where do you live ? i will never understand or support a policy of treating people as guilty until proven innocent. that’s not how we do it here. likewise for such a retarded waste of time and money as a this now seven year investigation that has yielded a couple of small-time drug dealers and a perjury charge.