[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
They showed his pre 98 stats on Comcast Sports or ESPN last night.
His average was below .300 (I think .285) and his RBI was under 100 per year (I think 97 per year).
Does anyone have real numbers for him?
I don’t dispute he was an excellent player pre 98, but he was not baseballs best hitter during that period.
He has become the best hitter of all time post 98. Pretty dramatic when you think about it.[/quote]
He has been ultra consistant through out his career.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
85 - 97 BA .288
96 - 2004 BA .324
85 - 97 Ave 34 HR per year
98 - 2004 Ave 47 HR per year
The guy went from a very good all around player to possibly the greatest hitter of all time when he started juicing.
This was at an age when his dad had to retire.
Makes me want to juice.[/quote]
And you cant compare those two span of years. He had 100 fewer at bats per year in the latter due to pussy ass pitchers. That sways someones BA considerably.
[quote]kroby wrote:
Everything Barry Bonds is BORING[/quote]
Everything Baseball is BORING
[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
They showed his pre 98 stats on Comcast Sports or ESPN last night.
His average was below .300 (I think .285) and his RBI was under 100 per year (I think 97 per year).
Does anyone have real numbers for him?
I don’t dispute he was an excellent player pre 98, but he was not baseballs best hitter during that period.
He has become the best hitter of all time post 98. Pretty dramatic when you think about it.
He has been ultra consistant through out his career.[/quote]
I just went through his stats. He has had a dramatic improvement in batting average and home run production post steroid use and at an age where most players careers decline.
[quote]kane101nod wrote:
Since its the media, you most also have your ‘daily dose’ of steroid evils. Bon appetit!
(From the article)
“In addition to detailing the drug usage, the excerpt portrays Bonds as a menacing boor, a tax cheat and an adulterer given to (probably because of the rampant steroid use) sexual dysfunction, hair loss and wild mood swings that included periods of rage.”
I found ‘periods of rage’ to be rather incongruous with being a ‘menacing boor.’ I personally can’t remeber a boring moment viewing a big guy having a wild mood swing while his hair falls out.
-k
[/quote]
Dude… I like this post… I think its pretty funny… but just so you know … its boor… not bore
otherwise…funny stuff
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I don’t dispute he was an excellent player pre 98, but he was not baseballs best hitter during that period.
He has become the best hitter of all time post 98. Pretty dramatic when you think about it.[/quote]
Interesting comment. Let’s take 1990 through 1997. Who was a better offensive player during that eight year stretch than Bonds? The only guy I think can even remotely be given consideration is Ken Griffey, Jr. He edges Bonds a bit in terms of peak seasons and (without adding it up) leads Bonds in basic power stats (homers, RBI, SLG). Bonds takes Griffey in other major categories (walks, OBP and he murders Junior in stolen bases). I have to call that a draw, at best, and possibly an edge to Bonds; Griffey played all his home games in the hitter-friendly Kingdom while Bonds split time in mediocre Three Rivers and the pitcher-friendly Candlestick.
I don’t see anyone else who can compete with Bonds over that 8 year run. Maybe Frank Thomas as a pure hitter, but he couldn’t run and couldn’t field his position well, so I tend to overlook him as a truly great player.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
PGA200X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
They showed his pre 98 stats on Comcast Sports or ESPN last night.
His average was below .300 (I think .285) and his RBI was under 100 per year (I think 97 per year).
Does anyone have real numbers for him?
I don’t dispute he was an excellent player pre 98, but he was not baseballs best hitter during that period.
He has become the best hitter of all time post 98. Pretty dramatic when you think about it.
He has been ultra consistant through out his career.
I just went through his stats. He has had a dramatic improvement in batting average and home run production post steroid use and at an age where most players careers decline.[/quote]
Also at an age when the ball is harder, the parks are smaller, the pitchers throw harder, they “shift” for Barry and “give” him singles, they walk him 100-150 times more per season, there is better knowledge about physical and mental preparation as well as nurtition and working out, 40 is the new 30, etc…
[quote]CC wrote:
I’m assuming from your avatar you play minor league ball somewhere? College? (I’m not saying this has anything to do with your knowledge on the subject matter; I just love the game so much, like hearing from guys about where they play, their experiences, etc.).
[/quote]
Thanks. Baseball is my passion, I play semi-pro for the Media Knights in the Delco League. Its a non-affiliated league, 2nd oldest in the country. Do you or anyone else here play competitively?
[quote]vermilion wrote:
I don’t see anyone else who can compete with Bonds over that 8 year run. Maybe Frank Thomas as a pure hitter, but he couldn’t run and couldn’t field his position well, so I tend to overlook him as a truly great player.[/quote]
Have you seen Barry playing in the outfield lately? He is the epitome of everything that is wrong with professional sports: lazy, arrogant, and an all-around piece of fucking shit on the field. All he cares about is himself and his stats…why do you think he’s had so many problems with teammates over the years? Great potential, poor character.
[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
85 - 97 BA .288
96 - 2004 BA .324
85 - 97 Ave 34 HR per year
98 - 2004 Ave 47 HR per year
The guy went from a very good all around player to possibly the greatest hitter of all time when he started juicing.
This was at an age when his dad had to retire.
Makes me want to juice.
And you cant compare those two span of years. He had 100 fewer at bats per year in the latter due to pussy ass pitchers. That sways someones BA considerably.[/quote]
That just makes his numbers even better for his steroid years.
13 more HR a season with far fewer AB’s and many more walks.
Steroids turned him into the best hitter of all time and they did it at the end of his career.
I previously was just looking at BA and HRs. You guys are right he was one of the top players of his era even before steroids when you factor in other categories.
If you look just at a .288 average and 34 HR it is very nice but it does not make you think it is the best.
I hope someone cuts out Victor Conte’s vocal chords and the rest of those fucking rats. I love the bodybuilding sterotyping. More positive publicity. But by far the best part is when they compare the 20-year time frame like it’s impossible to build 40 lbs of muscle from 1982-2002. I naturally built 40 lbs in my first 2 years of brutal training. Just another case of the ignorant and misinformed media.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
sublime wrote:
Barry has never proven to be INNOCENT of anything.
In America, you are innocent until PROVEN GUILTY, not the other way around, genius.[/quote]
If Barry is so wronged then when he sues these authors, Barry has to PROVE these guys were lying. So in effect he has to prove his INNOCENCE.
That being said - Barry knows what happened and he wont be suing anybody.
The real argument is Barry and his lying. Its 100% obvious that he has been lying about his role in all of this. If I were him, I would worry about possible perjury charges.
Kudos to Canseco by the way.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
vermilion wrote:
I don’t see anyone else who can compete with Bonds over that 8 year run. Maybe Frank Thomas as a pure hitter, but he couldn’t run and couldn’t field his position well, so I tend to overlook him as a truly great player.
Have you seen Barry playing in the outfield lately? He is the epitome of everything that is wrong with professional sports: lazy, arrogant, and an all-around piece of fucking shit on the field. All he cares about is himself and his stats…why do you think he’s had so many problems with teammates over the years? Great potential, poor character.[/quote]
We weren’t talking what he’s done lately, we were talking what he did from 1990-1997, when he won seven Gold Gloves and was the best leftfielder in the game. Thomas’s defense was so bad, he’s played half his career as a designated hitter.
[quote]E-man wrote:
I hope someone cuts out Victor Conte’s vocal chords and the rest of those fucking rats. I love the bodybuilding sterotyping. More positive publicity. But by far the best part is when they compare the 20-year time frame like it’s impossible to build 40 lbs of muscle from 1982-2002. I naturally built 40 lbs in my first 2 years of brutal training. Just another case of the ignorant and misinformed media.[/quote]
That bothers me more than anything else as well. I feel sorry for the guy who trains for 20 years and can’t gain 40lbs of muscle going from “rail thin” to “stocky” by his late 30’s.
[quote]GymGeek wrote:
So what if he did. I know plenty of guys taking the same stuff that could never turn around on a 95 mph fastball and smack it 450 feet.[/quote]
That’s because guys you know can’t hit a freakin’ baseball and Barry can, plain and simple.
That’s the same ol’ lame arguement he’s used and others have used all along. Total avoidance of why the league says you can’t use roids.
Listening to people in trouble on t.v. and elsewhere. They show classic crawfishing when asked the tough question.
ex: “Do you think it’s fair for a player to use perfomance enhancing drugs when others are playing by the rules?” Answer…“it doesn’t help hand eye coordination, doesn’t help with fundamentals etc.” But they know damm well what it does help.
[quote]OARSMAN wrote:
Now did you ever wonder if the bottle of Andro McGwire so prominently displayed in his locker was a red herring to mask possible use of Test? You know if he ever tested positive for the Test, he could just say it was the Andro? I don’t think anyone would be that stupid to just leave a bottle of that stuff in plain view in front of drug-illiterate sportswriters, legal or not… Just a thought…[/quote]
Absolutely. I’ve had that same thought for some time, and have voiced it. And I think it was pretty savvy of him.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
85 - 97 BA .288
96 - 2004 BA .324
85 - 97 Ave 34 HR per year
98 - 2004 Ave 47 HR per year
The guy went from a very good all around player to possibly the greatest hitter of all time when he started juicing.
This was at an age when his dad had to retire.
Makes me want to juice.[/quote]
now we are going to get into a baseball geek argument. I would throw out his first three seasons in the bigs - that’s what is bringing his average down.
I would argue he was already one of the greatest hitters of all time in terms of plate discipline. All the tools were there before the juice. He even had 3 40+ HR seasons and 4 30+ seasons before he even touched the juice. The juice just allowed some balls that would have been fly outs to go yard. That probably accounts for the increase in HR and the increase in AVG and SLG. The difference is now that you add superpower to the equation and boom! you got an average of 15 more HR / year.
[quote]E-man wrote:
I hope someone cuts out Victor Conte’s vocal chords and the rest of those fucking rats. I love the bodybuilding sterotyping. More positive publicity. But by far the best part is when they compare the 20-year time frame like it’s impossible to build 40 lbs of muscle from 1982-2002. I naturally built 40 lbs in my first 2 years of brutal training. Just another case of the ignorant and misinformed media.[/quote]
It wasn’t “over 20 years.” The dramatic weight gain began during the 1998 off-season, when he showed up for spring training with 15 pounds of solid muscle he didn’t have four months prior.
Did you even read the article?
I remember thinking after the 1992 season that Bonds had put himself on a level above the rest of baseball. He had. He was doing things at (185 pounds) that we had not seen since even BEFORE Mays and Aaron (particularly that he had the speed, power and defense, but also that he had the plate patience to walk 120+ times a year which neither Mays nor Aaron ever did).
I am not on Bonds side here, but clearly he had to go through watching McGwire and Sosa in '98 clearly on steroids turning HIS childhood memories of Mays and others into statistical garbage. He had dreamed of breaking the single season HR record, and now he had to watch cheaters annihilate it-and major leage baseball to do nothing about it.
Now, by definition, breaking the law IS breaking the rules of baseball-its part of every contract. It’s wasn’t cheating (at least until last year) as A) baseball had no rule against it and B) nobody had any intention of cracking down on it anyway, and we’ve always given players second and third chances after breaking the law. Gaylord Perry threw spitballs his whole career and is in the HOF and that is cheating.
And thinking back to McGwire, even he had a serious injury and could probably have justified the initial use-if he had a prescription.
The stats will stay. We will simply have to remember the years from '94-'05 as the steroid age. Last year’s ML stats were about 75% back to normal and will probably be there this year.
Now, how about predictions for Bonds this year. At his age, without anabolics, will he:
A) be out of the game within 2 months because he can’t keep up with ML fastballs any more?
B) just get injured all year long
C) do something, but a far cry from his .800 slugging percantage of the four years prior to last
D) return to MVP form
If they toss him, even though it wasn’t illegal, then there are a whole lot of people that should be bounced from the late 50’s and 60’s. The original performance enhancing drug for sports (until it was made illegal) was Cortisone. It was real common to use it (through injection) on the sidelines during a game. It went into elbows, knees, shoulders, you name it. At the time it was no more illegal than McGuire’s “Andro” use or anything Barry Bonds did prior to league ruling.