Bagdad Falling

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
481

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Yes, Smedley Butler certainly did have a wild imagination. Banksters, banksters everywhere!

[/quote]

I’m pretty sure he didn’t imagine all of his campaigns, and one does not attain the rank of Major General without gaining a keen understanding of who is buttering your bread.[/quote]

He was a radical isolationist who opposed US entry into WWII.

“The political leaders of this country are for another conflict to cover up their blunders.”

and gave speeches at Communist Party USA meetings.

“They told me I’d find a nest of communists here. I told them ‘What the hell of it!’”

[/quote]

He opposed joining an intra imperialist war where multiple imperialist nations fought for hegemony and expansion/maintenance of their colonies and control on the global amrkets? What a nutter!

482

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Yes, Smedley Butler certainly did have a wild imagination. Banksters, banksters everywhere!

[/quote]

I’m pretty sure he didn’t imagine all of his campaigns, and one does not attain the rank of Major General without gaining a keen understanding of who is buttering your bread.[/quote]

He was a radical isolationist who opposed US entry into WWII.

“The political leaders of this country are for another conflict to cover up their blunders.”

and gave speeches at Communist Party USA meetings.

“They told me I’d find a nest of communists here. I told them ‘What the hell of it!’”

[/quote]

There was a time in this country, believe it or not, when people were less afraid of communists than they were of fascists.

483

That depends entirely on one’s definition of class. Anyway, let’s examine your “proof.”

Nope. That doesn’t constitute proof. It’s merely you reiterating your definition of class.

I’ll give you an example:

You think class is about ownership of the means of production? Of course it’s not! Class describes how much money a person has.

^^there’s my “proof.” Now how is my “proof” any less valid than your “proof?”

484

[quote]GreySkull wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Yes, Smedley Butler certainly did have a wild imagination. Banksters, banksters everywhere!

[/quote]

I’m pretty sure he didn’t imagine all of his campaigns, and one does not attain the rank of Major General without gaining a keen understanding of who is buttering your bread.[/quote]

He was a radical isolationist who opposed US entry into WWII.

“The political leaders of this country are for another conflict to cover up their blunders.”

and gave speeches at Communist Party USA meetings.

“They told me I’d find a nest of communists here. I told them ‘What the hell of it!’”

[/quote]

He opposed joining an intra imperialist war where multiple imperialist nations fought for hegemony and expansion/maintenance of their colonies and control on the global amrkets? What a nutter!

[/quote]

So that’s your take on the Second World War huh? Jesus Christ …I pity you, I really do.

485

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Although she may be incorrect about what is in their hearts… [/quote]

That is my point.

We are required by law to follow order, but that is never (in my experience) the real reason we do what we do. [/quote]

It does not matter why ypou think you are doing something. Many German soldiers thought they were doing the right thing, many Russians thought they were protecting the soviet against foreign subversion when they massacred their own people, many North Korean soldiers might think they are doing the right thing.

But objectively those German soldiers in ww2 were commtiing genocide, were murdering millions and were objectively fighting for German corporatism, the fascist state and its hierachy. Does it matter what was in their hearts? Did it matter they thought they were preserving White Aryan Germnans homeland and removing the jewish control of their nation?

No because just because you believe something based on nothing, that does not mean you are not responsible for the hundreds of thousands of deaths you cause.

We all need to make a living and just like I don’t saddle the blame for inner city violence on a young gang member with a gun and some crack, I blame the economic and political situation for it, i don’t blame soldiers as the sole reason for the horrific imperialist actions done voerseas by the government.

But don’t et yourelf be fooled into thinking you just have to follow orders and your protecting anything, you are making a living from the murder of people overseas, you facillitate that situation by your presence, just like a gangter does. You might be a small pawn in a huge racket but you are still not fucking innocent and just doing your duty.

I mean you did join the biggest imperialist death machine in the world by choice, there was no draft right.

486

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Yes, Smedley Butler certainly did have a wild imagination. Banksters, banksters everywhere!

[/quote]

I’m pretty sure he didn’t imagine all of his campaigns, and one does not attain the rank of Major General without gaining a keen understanding of who is buttering your bread.[/quote]

He was a radical isolationist who opposed US entry into WWII.

“The political leaders of this country are for another conflict to cover up their blunders.”

and gave speeches at Communist Party USA meetings.

“They told me I’d find a nest of communists here. I told them ‘What the hell of it!’”

[/quote]

There was a time in this country, believe it or not, when people were less afraid of communists than they were of fascists.[/quote]

Yeah I know. But this guy was on the fringe. He is the author of a thoroughly discredited conspiracy theory about war profiteering in the First World War. It’s pretty nutty stuff. It was taken up by the Nazi sympathisers in America in the lead up to Pearl Harbour.

487

Me too. I never blame black people for their actions. I blame capitalist WASP hegemons, banksters and a shortage of diversity outreach coordinators.

Edit: oops! Sorry, I didn’t mean “black” I meant “youth.”

488

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

That depends entirely on one’s definition of class. Anyway, let’s examine your “proof.”

Nope. That doesn’t constitute proof. It’s merely you reiterating your definition of class.

I’ll give you an example:

You think class is about ownership of the means of production? Of course it’s not! Class describes how much money a person has.

^^there’s my “proof.” Now how is my “proof” any less valid than your “proof?”[/quote]

I understand what you are saying but what I am saying is there is a mechanism there, that all economists agree on. that is that you get paid a wage so that the capitalist can extract surplus value from you and make profit.

So my “proof” was a mere tongue in cheek reply calling for common sense when it comes to analysis. I mean I can’t prove the theory of gravity, but guess what. I know gravity exists.

There are several differing types of proof. Proof of surplus value being rendered from workers and that being based ont heir relationship to the means of productiona nd thus, their class, is self evident, because anyone here who understands the basics of buisness and running one, being a worker and working for a wage, knows something as basic as that.

Example.

Are there any capitalists who are working class? No? Ok, so how is that phenomena explainable within this debates context?

How can there be no working class capitalists if relationship to the means of production is not how class is based?

489

[quote]GreySkull wrote:
If I make 10 million as an actor that does not put me in the bourgoisie, it puts me in the working class because my reltaion to the productive forces is a worker on a film who recieves a wage, but that film makes millions more, thus rendering the people who take in the film profits the benefactors of my surplus value, same with the script writer etc.
[/quote]

Which perfectly illustrates why I think the meanings you subjectively apply* to notions of “class” are fatuous. George Clooney’s lifestyle, beliefs, working environment–all aspects of his life and career and employment and political power–more closely resemble those of Jerry Bruckheimer than they do a steel worker in western Pennsylvania. To an astronomical degree. Any conception of “class” that cannot account for this is just so much useless twaddle.

*Re-read the emboldened portion of that sentence a few times. It’s important. Or can you prove to me that income does not determine “class”? Perhaps by appealing to your Big Infallible Book of God’s Objective Definitions?

490

[quote]GreySkull wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Although she may be incorrect about what is in their hearts… [/quote]

That is my point.

We are required by law to follow order, but that is never (in my experience) the real reason we do what we do. [/quote]

It does not matter why ypou think you are doing something. Many German soldiers thought they were doing the right thing, many Russians thought they were protecting the soviet against foreign subversion when they massacred their own people, many North Korean soldiers might think they are doing the right thing.

But objectively those German soldiers in ww2 were commtiing genocide, were murdering millions and were objectively fighting for German corporatism, the fascist state and its hierachy. Does it matter what was in their hearts? Did it matter they thought they were preserving White Aryan Germnans homeland and removing the jewish control of their nation?

No because just because you believe something based on nothing, that does not mean you are not responsible for the hundreds of thousands of deaths you cause.

We all need to make a living and just like I don’t saddle the blame for inner city violence on a young gang member with a gun and some crack, I blame the economic and political situation for it, i don’t blame soldiers as the sole reason for the horrific imperialist actions done voerseas by the government.

But don’t et yourelf be fooled into thinking you just have to follow orders and your protecting anything, you are making a living from the murder of people overseas, you facillitate that situation by your presence, just like a gangter does. You might be a small pawn in a huge racket but you are still not fucking innocent and just doing your duty.

I mean you did join the biggest imperialist death machine in the world by choice, there was no draft right. [/quote]

lmfao…

Using your logic that makes every tax payer a member of the “biggest imperialist death machine” as well.

Particularly fond of your collectivist dismissal of the “blame” though on some “boogie man”.

491

If this is what you get from the concept of imperialism, it’s probably time to throw it away.
And, in this case, don’t forget to throw the baby with the bath water.
It was stillborn anyway.

492

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]GreySkull wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Yes, Smedley Butler certainly did have a wild imagination. Banksters, banksters everywhere!

[/quote]

I’m pretty sure he didn’t imagine all of his campaigns, and one does not attain the rank of Major General without gaining a keen understanding of who is buttering your bread.[/quote]

He was a radical isolationist who opposed US entry into WWII.

“The political leaders of this country are for another conflict to cover up their blunders.”

and gave speeches at Communist Party USA meetings.

“They told me I’d find a nest of communists here. I told them ‘What the hell of it!’”

[/quote]

He opposed joining an intra imperialist war where multiple imperialist nations fought for hegemony and expansion/maintenance of their colonies and control on the global amrkets? What a nutter!

[/quote]

So that’s your take on the Second World War huh? Jesus Christ …I pity you, I really do.
[/quote]

Why, can you give a non emotional analysis of it? You had England, a colonial power who had global markets cornered, huge colonies and hegemony, then you had the french, similar but less economically powerfull and less overseas value in colonial assets though still very high. Then you have the Germans and Italians and Japanese.

The Germans had a huge inferiority complex and were desperate for expansion, I mean if you look at Hitlers and Mussolinis and the Japanese Fascsist state and what they were talking about it was always more colonies, more expansion, because they wanted to rival the big powers.

Most Americans wanted nothing to do with the war in Europe because at the time while still horrible to blacks and gays and women, there was a genuine anti imperialist feeling in America. They were tricked alot like in the phillipines where they murdered up to a millionwomen and children, but overall alot of regular Americans were aginst a war they saw as a for profit war where their sons would die and wealthy buisnessmen would make billions.

One of the greatest things about America has consistently been an undercurrent of anti state, anti authoritarian feeling and when you look up views opposed to ww2 and before that ww1 and their nations genocide in places like the phillipines, you see that a huge number of hardworking Americans have had, maintained and keep with them today anti war and anti imperialist thought.

I mean how could England, France and America be against german and Japanese and Italian states because of their expansion and imperialism in Europe and Asia for humanitarian reasons? They all had their own imperialist overseeing to do, they all had their own colonial lands they had taken over.

Yet England and France went to war to stop Germany invading Poland? Why was that wrong but the English and French invasions of colonial lands were fine?

SEE NOTHING WEIRD WITH THAT?

493

Nope. If you make 10 million as an actor, you’re technically a prostitute. And, as such, you belong to the lumpenproletariat.
That’s so obvious that i don’t even believe i have to explain this to someone who read Marx.

494

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Edit: oops! Sorry, I didn’t mean “black” I meant “youth.”[/quote]

I suppose that’s still all right. Just don’t say “urban youth” when referring to young people who live in the city. That would be racist.

495

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]GreySkull wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Although she may be incorrect about what is in their hearts… [/quote]

That is my point.

We are required by law to follow order, but that is never (in my experience) the real reason we do what we do. [/quote]

It does not matter why ypou think you are doing something. Many German soldiers thought they were doing the right thing, many Russians thought they were protecting the soviet against foreign subversion when they massacred their own people, many North Korean soldiers might think they are doing the right thing.

But objectively those German soldiers in ww2 were commtiing genocide, were murdering millions and were objectively fighting for German corporatism, the fascist state and its hierachy. Does it matter what was in their hearts? Did it matter they thought they were preserving White Aryan Germnans homeland and removing the jewish control of their nation?

No because just because you believe something based on nothing, that does not mean you are not responsible for the hundreds of thousands of deaths you cause.

We all need to make a living and just like I don’t saddle the blame for inner city violence on a young gang member with a gun and some crack, I blame the economic and political situation for it, i don’t blame soldiers as the sole reason for the horrific imperialist actions done voerseas by the government.

But don’t et yourelf be fooled into thinking you just have to follow orders and your protecting anything, you are making a living from the murder of people overseas, you facillitate that situation by your presence, just like a gangter does. You might be a small pawn in a huge racket but you are still not fucking innocent and just doing your duty.

I mean you did join the biggest imperialist death machine in the world by choice, there was no draft right. [/quote]

lmfao…

Using your logic that makes every tax payer a member of the “biggest imperialist death machine” as well.

Particularly fond of your collectivist dismissal of the “blame” though on some “boogie man”. [/quote]

Erm I don’t volunteer to pay taxes. So no I am not doing that. Voluntarily joining an imperialist military and being forced to pay taxes is not the same.

One if forced and violence is threatened if you do not comply, physically robbing you and taking you and throwing you in a cage, the other is the voluntary joining of the military which you know is currently active in murdering foreigners in wars that are for the sole purpose of the handful of corporate interests that have influence in the state to bring these wars about.

How is that the same as bein forced by the state to pay money (which also goes to schools, roads, services)

496

[quote]kamui wrote:

Nope. If you make 10 million as an actor, you’re technically a prostitute. And, as such, you belong to the lumpenproletariat.
That’s so obvious that i don’t even believe i have to explain this to someone who read Marx.

[/quote]

Ha that was quite funny :).

Unless you seriously believe that, which I willt ake it you don’t

497

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’ve never met a service member that joined to pad Halliburton bottom line regardless of what their civilian commanders wanted. However, almost every service member I’ve eve met joined to protect freedom or whatever freedom means to them. So to say, “Your soldiers are not fighting for the freedom of the Iraqi people, they are fighting for private interests,” to me, is not true and a vast generalization. You nor I know whether that statement is true or not, however, I’m confident the Marines that fought at Belleau Woods and the Marines that fought in Fallujah did it for the same reasons and those reason have nothing to do with “private interests” like Halliburton. [/quote]

No, the individual serviceman has only a very vague notion of why he is going out to fight. The reasons he thinks he’s fighting vary a bit from decade to decade (“glory”, “duty”, “honor”, “democracy”, “freedom”, “poontang” etc.), but the real reasons haven’t changed much in the last several thousand years.

Here’s what Smedley Butler, Major General, United States Marine Corps, had to say on the matter.

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

"I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National city Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested.

“'Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”[/quote]

This all may very well be true of what a service member, in reality, actually is and actually does, but as I said, I don’t believe it accurately reflects why we do what we do.

You can call us puppets, in many ways we are, but no service member was willing to die in German, Japan, or Afghanistan so that a private company like Halliburton can more money.

498

Your analysis is ludicrous. For starters, France was terrified of going to war and tried to enclose themselves behind the Maginot line with heads in the sand. Britain was equally reluctant to go to war. That’s why they literally handed over Czechoslovakia to Hitler. The Munich crisis/invasion of Poland was the last straw and Britain and France declared war for their own survival. Even then, both were reluctant to wage war and a period of inaction ensued called the phoney war. Your fantasy narrative about imperialist motives is tin foil hattery.

499

What i said was no more and no less funny than what you said.
I mechanically used an old marxist concept to “analyze” a contemporary reality, which produced an absurd result.
You used an another marxist concept, but in the very same way, with the very same result.

One more time, for the fun :

My sister owns the camera she use to put lolcats videos on youtube. “Therefore” she is a 12 year old bourgeois and a paypal capitalist.

500

[quote]GreySkull wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Although she may be incorrect about what is in their hearts… [/quote]

That is my point.

We are required by law to follow order, but that is never (in my experience) the real reason we do what we do. [/quote]

Whole bunch of bullshit. [/quote]

I thought you weren’t gonna respond to me?