Thanks Brother. Was kind of leaning that way. It’s so easy in our line of work to get so hung up on how good you are at punching holes in paper that you forget that that isn’t really what keeps you alive in a gunfight.
Edited.
Thought you might be interested in this gunfight, pulled it off Aaron’s blog:
The next time you are going to train, whether at the gym, dojo, or range, keep this quote in mind:
“Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn’t worry about what workout to do – his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about ‘how hard it is;’ he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn’t go home at 17:00, he is home. He knows only The Cause”
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Not sure if this is the best place for this (if there’s anywhere more appropriate please tell me and I’ll move) but I didn’t want to create a new topic and I know how much experience people on this thread have. I was wondering if anyone had any advice on standing up for yourself when faced with multiple (I’m talking 5-15) hostile assailants.
Where I’m from the kind of people who you will most likely end up fighting travel in groups and in every hostile situation I’ve been in I’ve just had to walk away without saying or doing anything as I was outnumbered. Obviously I am aware that walking away is always the best option and I am happy to be told that but I always feel like such a little bitch so if everyone is going to tell me to walk away I would appreciate any advice on how to not feel so shitty when I walk away.
BTW I’m not asking how to kick 15 guys asses all at the same time, just how to handle a hostile situation with multiple possible attackers so that I can leave with some dignity and hopefully no scars.
In the first place, being out numbered and walking away is tactically SMART. Believe me, there have been times where I and others were very heavily armed and the odds were not good, so, we withdrew to fight another day, I cannot put away badguys if I am dead.
Second, never feel bad about having the luxury of walking away, a lot of times, attacked by a gang, mob, or whatever, takes place in an area that you cannot egress and then the fight for survival is on. I am sure you would fight then and I think you know you would.
Third, unless you are being hit by a trained unit, I have found that only chicken shits and cowards attack in packs, you never see one hyena attack a full grown cape buffalo, its always a pack. Listen, I have had this happen to me several times and each time, I felt like shit afterwards, but, what I do is swallow my anger and vow to train harder in the gym, train to be the best I can be at my profession, because, I know that one of these days, I may never get the chance to be SMART and then I will take as many of them with me as possible. Pour that anger into making yourself the best you can be. One of my favorite quotes is :
" Humiliation is a thing never forgotten"
And I dont forget…I hopes this helps a littte, you are certainly not alone.
Thanks for the reply, good to know I’m not alone in this.
Like this advice a lot, utilising the negative emotions to your advantage.
Completely agree. If walking away from a violent encounter is possible and morally acceptable it is the only rational option. Infuriating, maybe, but still the only rational option. Add 5-15 hooligans and it becomes pretty much a survival imperative.
If you have the option to walk away, no one really wants to hurt you, they want to display social dominance. As hard as it is to swallow, this is actually very good news. This means you still have a high degree of control over the situation. It’s your choice.
If walking away from 5-15 guys who mean you harm is not an option, hopefully running away is. If it really isn’t, either practically or morally, then you no longer have control over the situation and all that’s left is to be the hardest motherfucker they ever tried to kill.
Without weapons (and preferably ranged weapons) there are no “high percentage” tactics against multiples. At my old RMA school we used to say that the two things that keep you alive are consciousness and mobility. Move, protect your head, use the environment, improvise a weapon if you can’t carry one, unleash hell and look for the first opportunity to GTFO.
Unless they’re determined, they may decide the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. Again though, this is last ditch Hail Mary stuff and likely won’t go your way. You have to ask yourself if it’s worth sustaining life altering injuries or being killed to avoid feeling like a bitch. I know my answer to that question, but you need to work out your own.
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Great learning points Brother. Yeah, not a lot of flat range style shooting going on there…
I’ll leave this here.
Batman730,
Great video, the very definition of tactical assessement. Nice, cool thinking in a highly volatile situation, you can tell he has been around the block a few times.
Another site you might want to check out, the information is usually good, even if the articles are very brief:
Idaho, thanks for the link. Will check it out more, but liking it so far.
Question regarding your take on use of light for low light shenanigans. We were on a gun call, rural, 0-dark hundred, overcast, traipsing around the woods with carbines looking for a guy reported to have some kind of long gun. It was blacker than the inside of a cow out there. No NVG’s of course. I could navigate by ambient light but that was about it.
I was using my light very briefly and sparingly when I wanted to scan an area of interest. Much of the time I was in the dark and would easily have walked past someone who was still and quiet, but I didn’t want to light myself up like a beacon if some idiot was out there somewhere with a long gun. Thoughts?
BTW, never found anyone or even confirmed that there had been anyone out there. Still, was good to get out in full battle rattle, rifle plates and all and go hunting. Definitely helped work out some kinks and shake of the complacency that creeps in
Thanks.
Without NVG’s thats about all you can do. I have been in that situation and its not fun. Now, I have NVG’s and they are great within their limits, however, like everything with survival , there are pros and cons for another discussion. I also carry a separate light with a red lens for those occasions when i have a good intell on where the badguy is. Red seems to “fade” a lot faster in the dark and will not screw your position as bad as white.
However, for domestic law enforcement you need to carry the most brillant white light you can to ID your target, hopefully briefly blinding him in the process, and save you from a potential lawsuit. If you are on a tactical team, you can get away with using red, but, for everyday work, some defense attorney will get that information and use it against you.“My client thought you were attacking him, he shot to defend himself from another felon”. That kind of crap.
I am going to list a couple of articles and just for general information an excellent post from Dave Spaulding on the “4 modes of Combat Handgunning”.
Two San Antonio cops were shot (one died) yesterday during a “street stop” Be safe.
From Dave Spaulding:
- Military: The military does everything they can to KILL THE ENEMY (an important distinction) at GREAT distance. It is the way it should be! If they can kill the enemy (no intelligence value, of course) in Iraq from a trailer in Nevada using a drone, then they should! Distance favors the trained shooter, so the further away one can be from an adversary when the fight breaks out, the greater advantage we (those trained) have in winning the fight. Shooting at contact distance requires no skill, just tenacity, so trying to engage far away increases survivability.
The problem arises in the fact the pistol is not designed for such long shots. With a short barrel and reduced sight radius long shots become problematic. Yes, with practice they can be made but how many folks who carry a handgun for personal security purposes possess this level of skill? Its one thing to make a 100 yard shot on the square range with little stress, but quite another while under the duress of a real gunfight with non-hostiles running through the battle space in panic, which would be the case at a large box store.
- Law Enforcement: Unlike the military, law enforcement does not kill the enemy; they police society and thus, TAKE POEPLE INTO CUSTODY (another important distinction). Great strides are taken to arrest offenders and take them in front of a judge. Even in extreme situations like hostage rescues, the goal is to apprehend the offender, not kill. Offensive action, like a sniper shot, is avoided if at all possible and is only used if it is the final option.
Because of this arrest standard, law enforcement will always be an activity of close contact. Even in situations that do not involve arrest such as citizen contacts, those involved wish to keep the interaction as private as possible, thus close contact is required. Can you imagine the uproar if a patrol officer stood back 10 yards and yelled to an honest citizen, “HEY! THROW ME YOR INDEINTIFICATION! I DO NOT WANT TO GET TOO CLOSE UNTIL I FIND OUT WHO YOU ARE! Nope…that will not go over well with the citizenry.
Law enforcement has known for over a century that the single most dangerous moment is when the first handcuff goes on…that is when the fight will start! I have been there numerous times and it is not an enjoyable experience. Four times during my career I fought over my own gun in such situations and all were quite perilous. None ended in death because in those days, we were allowed to HIT PEOPLE HARD, something that is judged as cruel, mean and heartless in the days of the cell phone video. A punch to the throat or poke to the eyes always ended such attacks. That said, with close contact being a reality, is it any wonder why law enforcement shootings tend to be within double arms length to ten feet?
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The Armed Citizen: A distance of six yards seems to be a continuing aspect of armed citizen confrontations. I have seen this distance so many times now, that I have started to incorporate it in my training courses. It makes sense as armed citizens ARE NOT DUTY BOUND TO APPREHEND, ARREST AND CERTALY DO NOT WISH TO KILL…THEY WANT TO REPEL AN ATTACK AND GET THE ATTACKER TO STOP (another important distinction). If the attacker flees, that s just fine.
For this reason, armed citizens create distance between them and the potential threat, distances like the length of a car, across a parking space, a living room or a public hall way…a distance in which they can converse, issue warnings but also retain a reactionary gap. Just a few steps can increase distance significantly. In many cases, their hand is on their holstered sidearm, but it has not yet been displayed. For whatever reason, the individual could not avoid the situation so they are now trying to evade by creating distance and allowing the potential attacker to move on. This is a wise move! Engaging in a deadly force situation is life changing and costly! The armed citizen is not duty bound so they should avoid or evade at all costs.
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Felons: Their mode of thought is quite simple…THEY WISH TO COMPLETE WHATEVER CIMINAL ACTION THEY HAVE STARTED AND GET AWAY. In some cases it is violence committed in the act of another crime (robbery, theft, etc.) in others it is the act of violence itself that satisfies the offender. In either case, they wish to flee the scene once the act is completed. It should be understood that they do not see the world as you do, they do not think like you do and they were not raised as you were. DO NOT APPLY HOW YOU THINK ABOUT A PARTICULAR SITUATION TO THEM!
They are not “trained” in combative pistolcraft per se’ and do not concern themselves with “legalities”, after all they are already committing multiple crimes. Thus, if gun play is involved they will not worry about shot placement, who is hit, where their bullets go and will likely spray the area with bullets in order to assist their escape. While they may not be traditionally trained, many have been involved in gunfights…some have been shot…thus they will have NO APPREHENSION about shooting at you, your loved ones or anyone in the area. Fortunately, many choose to flee instead of shoot, but one cannot count on this…some offenders just like violence.
While you will be worried about such things as legalities and misplaced shots…your mind might be filled with them… as you deploy your handgun, they will not! Crime is their occupation, violence just a way of life.
As I wrap up this already too long blog, I want to go back to the definitions listed at the beginning. A mode is “A manner of acting or doing; method; way” and this method or way will certainly be affected by one’s background. In addition, when it comes to training, many instructors have been trained to operate it certain environments…I know I was! It makes sense, why would a war fighter train himself or herself to function as an armed citizen? It’s not their “real world of work and play”.
As we proceed through this “journey of discovery” that is training and preparation, we must all decide what our real world of work and play is and proceed accordingly. Does that mean we cannot “dabble” in military style training? Of course not, I believe we should seek training for a wide variety of sources. But when it comes building skills, mastering and anchoring same to a level of “auto pilot” (a longer process than many understand), we need to use critical thought and choose wisely…not be sucked into the world of tacti-cool and fantasy. The reality of conflict SUCKS…you don’t want to make it worse by preparing incorrectly…
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LOL…what can you say but" get sum woman"
Awesome reply. Lots to chew on. Thanks Brother!
Woman is an utter badass. Huge respect for the Kurds. See. Like an amazing people.
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A respectful salute to your bravery. Never forget…always be ready.
- credit goes to crossfit for the information and photo.
On July 7, 2016, a sniper coordinated an ambush on a group of police officers in Dallas, Texas. Dallas 5 commemorates the five officers who lost their lives in the attack.
Dallas Police Officer Patricio “Patrick” Zamarripa, 33, was a member of the force for six years and served active duty with the U.S. Navy for eight years and in the reserves for five. He is survived by his wife, Kristy, and daughter, Lyncoln Rae.
Dallas Police Senior Corporal Lorne Ahrens, 48, was a longtime member of the force. He served with the Los Angeles Police Department for 10 years before moving to Texas and joining the Dallas Police Department in 2002. He is survived by his wife, Katrina, and children, Sorcha and Magnus.
Dallas Police Officer Michael Krol, 40, was an eight-year veteran of the Dallas Police Department and a dedicated member of the Wayne County Sheriff’s Office in Detroit, Michigan, before that. He is survived by numerous friends and family members.
Dallas Police Sergeant Michael Smith, 55, served as a U.S. Army Ranger before joining the police force in 1989. The 27-year veteran of the force is survived by his wife, Heidi, and daughters, Victoria and Caroline.
Dallas Area Rapid Transit Officer Brent Thompson, 43, served in the Marine Corps before joining the Corsicana Police Department and then the Dallas Police. He is survived by his wife, Emily, and many other friends and family members.
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Batman730 and others interested. A decent article on clearing hallways.
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End of watch for five of our brothers. May they rest in peace knowing they gave all that any of us has to give. May the rest of us never forget and always be ready.
Great info, thanks. Have trained this material but the problem is it’s never enough reps and never often enough to really stay current (as you know). I try to keep it fresh in my mind whenever I move through a structure, even if I’m not clearing it per se.
Can’t ninja up to every unwanted person call. Too much stress and I expect you’d look like a bit of a knob. At the same time visualizing if/then scenarios for how it would go if the risk assessment changed has value IMO.
It’s amazing how perishable it all is when you haven’t drilled for a bit.
Batman730,
Enjoy, brother. I was able to complete in the SWAT competition held in Orlando, Fl, for two years. This CT. SWAT challenge looks really good, especially the variety of drills. I wish Mapwrap was stilll around, be good to get his thoughts on it also.
http://www.ctswatchallenge.com/
