Really Bad.
Mapwrap, Will, and other LEO’s on this forum: Stay vigilant, not only from the ISIS threats, but, I have always considered the period between Halloween and Christmas to be the most dangerous times to work the streets.
2 California sheriff's deputies shot dead; suspect arrested - CBS News
You know…I was just talking to my dad about those stories this afternoon. Sometimes, the view from the inside of the fishbowl is that the world is going crazy…
I think I’m just more of the opinion that this kind of stuff has always gone on…we just have access to it now because it gets reported around the world in minutes.
You know how it is, Idaho. The world is a dangerous place, but some of us just have jobs that put us into that danger more than others. Thus, our worldview gets a little skewed.
Just gotta keep your head on a swivel and your mind in the game, right? Watch your six, my friend…
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
You know…I was just talking to my dad about those stories this afternoon. Sometimes, the view from the inside of the fishbowl is that the world is going crazy…
I think I’m just more of the opinion that this kind of stuff has always gone on…we just have access to it now because it gets reported around the world in minutes.
You know how it is, Idaho. The world is a dangerous place, but some of us just have jobs that put us into that danger more than others. Thus, our worldview gets a little skewed.
Just gotta keep your head on a swivel and your mind in the game, right? Watch your six, my friend… [/quote]
Good Points and I will be the first to admit that my world view is a little skewed, plus reading the crap below doesnt help it any. Thanks, I will and you do the same.
“Strike their police, security and intelligence members, as well as their treacherous agents,” ISIS spokesman Aub Mohammad al-Adnani posted on Sept. 21. “If you are not able to find an IED or a bullet, then single out the disbelieving American, Frenchman, or any of their allies. Smash his head with a rock, or slaughter him with a knife, or run him over with your car, or throw him down from a high place, or choke him or poison him.”
[quote]Robert A wrote:
idaho,
Great post. I hope everyone appreciates you taking the time to weigh in on this material. I sure as hell do.
RE: Ambidextrous
I think it scales a bit.
You need to get something up to competent/useful first THAN ambi training pays off. Being wrong handed I have to be “both handed” for a lot of things because the world is built for everyone else.
Some skills it will pay bigger dividends than others. Knowing how to use a blade with either hand is huge for retention/close range, but perhaps less so with fencing. Shooting a carbine off of either shoulder is big, but perhaps not for precision rifle.
RE: Motor learning
I was just arguing the 10,000 repetition point with a couple of friends who were being highly critical of the methods at teaching hospitals (high on methodology and repetition) vs community health centers (see one, do one, teach one).
I was pointing out that the work, and perhaps path, to training a “teacher” or for you “force multiplier” vs a competent technician may well be different.
Regards,
Robert A [/quote]
Hey folks. Been away for a bit, hope everyone’s well especially in light of the apparent recent uptick in craziness out there.
I haven’t caught up on a lot of recent posts but the wrong handed thing got my attention. I happen to be cross hand/eye dominant (right hand/left eye). As any of the firearms guys out there know this presents some unusual challenges around sight picture etc, especially for long guns.
I am fortunately somewhat genetically predisosed to ambidexterity although I am right hand dominant for most activities. So my question is, would I be better served by simply teaching myself to shoot primarily with my “other strong hand” and deal with a little initial awkwardness and the fact that most weapons are built for righties, or should I look into another work around? I don’t shoot much so I would have few habits to unlearn in any event.
Thanks for the input. Be safe.
(Forgive the typos, my spellcheck is on the fritz)
batman730,
Someone at the archery club has the same issue. The coach claims it’s better to learn how to shoot with your non-dominant hand than it is to shoot with your non-dominant eye.
[quote]Will207 wrote:
batman730,
Someone at the archery club has the same issue. The coach claims it’s better to learn how to shoot with your non-dominant hand than it is to shoot with your non-dominant eye. [/quote]
Yeah, I’m kind of leaning this way. The dominant eye tends to take over unless I really strain to focus through the other (unless of course I squint it closed, which is obviously impractical for any type of tactical shooting). I’m thinking it’d be even worse under stress when it can be hard enough to pick up your sights regardless.
Thanks for the reply.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
Hey folks. Been away for a bit, hope everyone’s well especially in light of the apparent recent uptick in craziness out there.
I haven’t caught up on a lot of recent posts but the wrong handed thing got my attention. I happen to be cross hand/eye dominant (right hand/left eye). As any of the firearms guys out there know this presents some unusual challenges around sight picture etc, especially for long guns.
I am fortunately somewhat genetically predisosed to ambidexterity although I am right hand dominant for most activities. So my question is, would I be better served by simply teaching myself to shoot primarily with my “other strong hand” and deal with a little initial awkwardness and the fact that most weapons are built for righties, or should I look into another work around? I don’t shoot much so I would have few habits to unlearn in any event.
Thanks for the input. Be safe.
(Forgive the typos, my spellcheck is on the fritz)[/quote]
Computer problems are going around.
I am not a firearms trainer. Mapwhap and idaho are essentially SME’s in this area so I would defer to them over myself. The following are just some observations.
Cross Dominant and pistols:
For pistols it may be as simple as shooting “Modern Iso” and lining the gun up with your dominant eye. Essentially bring the gun a few inches left. Don’t try to tip your head to the gun. Plenty of folks do this. Cross dominant causes problems until it is recognized.
Shooting strong hand only will be a bit trickier, because you have to get weak side eye behind the gun. Just remember that and “square up” to the gun to allow it. Many folks will blade strongly shooting one handed, like the old bulls-eye shooters, but this could cause you grief.
Lefties and Pistols:
This is not all blonds and blow jobs. Most service weapons are fairly ambi friendly. Left handed safeties on 1911 style pistols are said to be problematic because of torque on the safety but past that Glock, Sig, Smith M&P’s, and HK all have pretty lefty friendly products.
If you do go all in on left handed work here are some common tricks that everyone likely already knows.
1.) Use your trigger/index finger to hit the mag release. You have to “flip” the gun a bit, but many folks do that anyway using their thumbs. You will probably do this intuitively.
2.) On Sig pistols you can usually de-cock the gun using your index finger as well. A little more “flip” may be needed, but otherwise this should go fine.
3.) If you want to use the slide release to drop the slide-
Reload as is commonly taught with the gun at eye level, barrel up, and so you are looking at it’s right side/your left thumb.
After inserting the magazine securely (some folks like to give a tug here, others just slam it home, do as you will) use your support hand(right hand) and turn it palm towards you. Slide the palm or your support hand over the back of your left hand. Use either your index or middle finger to find and depress the slide release. On a Sig the release is pretty far to the rear but this should still work.
Lefties and Gear:
Finding it can suck a bit more. This may be even more the case in Canada where there is less private sector firearms culture. Holsters, sometimes mag carriers, etc. are all harder to find. If you are thinking LEO than any holster/widget carrier that you want oriented a certain way is backwards or a special order. Knife sheaths, tazer, what the hell ever. If you have to buy/source this stuff yourself it could be big balls.
Lefties and Long Guns:
I think we should qualify what type of long gun shooting you are doing? Eye dominance is probably huge for wing shooting/trap/skeet/sporting clays. I don’t know how big a deal it is for precision shooting with a rifle. My suspicion is for field positions it matters, but bench not so much.
Most “practical” long gun use seems to focus on distances out to 150 yards or so. Carbines and shotguns get shot off of either shoulder at closer ranges depending on cover and what you are navigating (corners, concealment, etc.) So, at least part of the time folks seem to shoot cross dominant just fine. Focus on “practical” or “combat” accuracy at ranges out to 50 yards with a long gun may make the issues of cross eye dominance wash out. Something that matters at 200 yards off hand or 400 yards prone may not be noticeable when you are trying to put 2-3 rounds amidships at 6 yards RIGHT NOW. I can see how it would be crucial with a bow.
Many long gun safeties are not at all lefty friendly. Cross bolt safeties are always going to be an issue for the wrong handed (safety on a Remington 870 for example). Some of these can be reversed, but if you are an LEO drawing pool weapons that wont work and may be bad muscle memory. Most AR-15 pattern rifles do not have ambi safeties standard.
Being able to quickly go off safe and ON safe is a huge advantage (think suddenly needing to drop your long gun into “slung” and using your hands to catch a team mate or go control someone. It the gun is safed that is one thing. If not then the weight of the firearm, plus movement, and all that gear on the front of you looking to get caught in the trigger guard, become a recipe for serious unpleasantness.
There is an App for that:
Well not exactly an app, but gear. Modern electronic dot sights like Aimpoint and Eotech make a lot of this academic at the ranges most LEO shootings happen. It is both eyes open, dot over target, work trigger. If you can get a weapon with one of those that is great. Ghost ring/aperture style sights can also help, but less so. The technology is really the ticket here.
Since a lot of TTP’s involve switching shoulders anyway you may not be as far behind using irons. I would want to see if it is an issue before making the choice for long guns. I would avoid doing so with handguns simply because of gear sourcing. Also, handgun shooting requires a lot more dexterity than close range long gun shooting. I can slap the shit out of my shotgun trigger (590A1, because tang safety and I am a lefty) and the weight of the gun, plus having both hands on it and my shoulder means the hole seems to end up pretty much where I aimed. Doing that with my Glock can result in missing. Generally the heavier the trigger compared to the weight of the gun the more dexterity/trigger is going to matter. If you are using a two pound or less hand gun I would want to use my most “careful” hand and that is usually the one we write with.
Random Shit Everyone Already Knows, but in case non of the above helped is my last chance for useful:
Everyone seems to “see” sights a bit different, but generally things that pull attention toward the front sight are going to help. This is especially true with handguns. I am a big fan of painting front sights obnoxious colors, because I want them to beg for my attention like a Labrador puppy. I realize you may be stuck with issued gear and a DO NOT MODIFY order, so obsessing about such things may not be in the cards. If you are having eyesight issues or dominance issues I would still do your best to make the front sight more prominent than the rear for a handgun.
The following are “tricks” that everyone already knows.
1.)If you have a white dot on the front sight, and you can’t paint it, keep it really clean. Alcohol and a cue tip are your friend. Especially if it is a tritium sight, and really it should be.
2.)If you have white dots on your rear sight and you notice that the rear is often more prominent use a black sharpie on the dots. IF it is issued gear use a washable sharpie if you must. Now the rear is just “dirty”.
3.)If you have tritium rears and a tritium front and you find the rear greatly over powers the front and pulls your attention to the wrong dot then do a variation of number 2. Use a red washable sharpie on the rear glass vials and black on the white rings if present. This both dims and slightly changes the color of the rear so the green front that is further away has a better chance to grab attention. I really dislike all green night sights for this reason. I love my Warren’s because the rear is not only yellow (less bright tritium) but is recessed so the visible lamp appears smaller than the front green.
I hope some of this helped. I am sure it is mostly old news. Listen to idaho and mapwhap over me.
Regards,
Robert A
You don’t need to listen to me, Robert has certainly outlined an excellent plan and you will do well to listen to him and incorporate his advise. I agree:
"Cross Dominant and pistols:
For pistols it may be as simple as shooting “Modern Iso” and lining the gun up with your dominant eye. Essentially bring the gun a few inches left. Don’t try to tip your head to the gun. Plenty of folks do this. Cross dominant causes problems until it is recognized.
Tipping your head toward the gun is a major mistake, it throws you out of alignment, which is just as important as trigger play.
“Shooting strong hand only will be a bit trickier, because you have to get weak side eye behind the gun. Just remember that and “square up” to the gun to allow it. Many folks will blade strongly shooting one handed, like the old bulls-eye shooters, but this could cause you grief”
If you have to qualify using this, You must align your head in a proper position, without seeing you shoot, the only thing I can advise is start off practicing at 3 feet, until you get your head position correct.
“Most “practical” long gun use seems to focus on distances out to 150 yards or so. Carbines and shotguns get shot off of either shoulder at closer ranges depending on cover and what you are navigating (corners, concealment, etc.) So, at least part of the time folks seem to shoot cross dominant just fine. Focus on “practical” or “combat” accuracy at ranges out to 50 yards with a long gun may make the issues of cross eye dominance wash out. Something that matters at 200 yards off hand or 400 yards prone may not be noticeable when you are trying to put 2-3 rounds amidships at 6 yards RIGHT NOW. I can see how it would be crucial with a bow”
Correct: For modern combat, with a rifle/carbine (M-4, M-6, M-16) 150 yards is a long shot, because most fighting is not taking place on an open battlefield, but, in camel shit houses and narrow streets.
" Well not exactly an app, but gear. Modern electronic dot sights like Aimpoint and Eotech make a lot of this academic at the ranges most LEO shootings happen. It is both eyes open, dot over target, work trigger. If you can get a weapon with one of those that is great. Ghost ring/aperture style sights can also help, but less so. The technology is really the ticket here"
Correct: If you can afford the price, get an Aimpoint/Eotech. It has changed the face of shooting in the Military/SWAT/SRT. I rarely see any US/ Coalition solider without an electronic sight. No cross eye dominate issues to worry about. The only open sights I deal with are some local nationals , who are carrying the AK for duty use. Even with their notoriously shitty sights, they still are effective out to 100 yards.
" Everyone seems to “see” sights a bit different, but generally things that pull attention toward the front sight are going to help. This is especially true with handguns. I am a big fan of painting front sights obnoxious colors, because I want them to beg for my attention like a Labrador puppy. I realize you may be stuck with issued gear and a DO NOT MODIFY order, so obsessing about such things may not be in the cards. If you are having eyesight issues or dominance issues I would still do your best to make the front sight more prominent than the rear for a handgun.
The following are “tricks” that everyone already knows.
1.)If you have a white dot on the front sight, and you can’t paint it, keep it really clean. Alcohol and a cue tip are your friend. Especially if it is a tritium sight, and really it should be.
2.)If you have white dots on your rear sight and you notice that the rear is often more prominent use a black sharpie on the dots. IF it is issued gear use a washable sharpie if you must. Now the rear is just “dirty”.
3.)If you have tritium rears and a tritium front and you find the rear greatly over powers the front and pulls your attention to the wrong dot then do a variation of number 2. Use a red washable sharpie on the rear glass vials and black on the white rings if present. This both dims and slightly changes the color of the rear so the green front that is further away has a better chance to grab attention. I really dislike all green night sights for this reason. I love my Warren’s because the rear is not only yellow (less bright tritium) but is recessed so the visible lamp appears smaller than the front green".
I hope some of this helped. I am sure it is mostly old news. Listen to idaho and mapwhap over me.
Read this several times, could not agree more. Well said and always listen to Robert.
As most of you know, I am a CQB instructor and spend a lot of time on the range and with my current local nationals on various assignments. etc. However, I have to periodically qualify on my issue weapons to feed the administrative beast. Since, I cannot sign off on myself, I have to arrange for another instructor to run me through the drills.
So, this morning, I made the journey to the outdoor range to run a few qualification drills. As, I was signing in on the range log, I happen to glance to the right and see a small , clear, bottle with this giant scorpion floating in alcohol.
I pointed at the bottle and asked the range guy, " What the hell is that"?
Range guy: “oh, that? Thats a yellow tailed scorpion, poison as hell”
Me: Really?
Range guy: “Yeah”, “I kill them all the time around the range barriers”
Me: “nice”, (lots of sarcasm)
Range guy: “Hey, since you are here”, “you want to see my snake”?
Me: “You got a snake in here?” (as I slowly ease my finger toward the safety on my M-6) I dont mind killing badguys, but, snakes are a different matter.
Range guy: “Yeah” it’s in the refrigerator"
Me: (Now, I really start to easy of the safety, because, this guy is a head case)
Range guy: He jumps up from behind his desk and crosses the little hallway and jerks open the freezer compartnment of the refrigerator, and says “take a look , yank”
Me: I look in the freezer, and, sure as hell, there are two small snakes in there, looking like some type of frozen popsicles. Stunned, I said, “what the fuck are they?”
Range guy: “Hey, you never seen these before”? “How long you been in this part of the world?”
Me: “no, I havent seen one before” and if i did, I would have blown it straight to hell"
Range guy: “Oh, mate, its just a little viper”, its called a “saw scale viper” , poison little bugger"
Me: “yeah, right”. "Hey, “no offense”, “but”, “why the fuck do you have two frozen snakes?”
Range guy: “Reminds me of my ex-wife, “viper bitch”, she was”
LOL.
these pictures make my skin crawl just by looking at em. bahhh snakesss.
Do you want to see my skorpo-snake-spider, it’s venomous as hell?
Thanks for the replies gents.
Robert, regardless of whether you consider yourself an SME your insights are always welcome. I found your reply to be helpul and thought provoking. As far as guys who have BTDT in a big way, idaho you’re weigh ins are always appreciated, so thanks to you both.
To qualify/clarify: I am primarily focused on practcal/LE applications. I fully appreciate that once I get on with an agency their firearms guys will sort me out. However, I do occasionall manage to get out for a range day and/or some simunition training So I figure I may as well make those reps count.
A little on my background in shooting (such as it is). My range time is generally limited to when I can manage to cajole one or more of my Mil/LE friends into taking me out for a bit. I’m generally a “target” in sim training but I do get the chance to handle/manipulate sim pistols, clear stoppages change mags etc, in a supervised environment where I get some useful feedback.
I’ve mostly fired glock variants. As you pointed out Robert, I find I am generally able to shift the pistol across my centre line and under my shooting eye without too much difficulty. There is a tendancy to tilt my head, but I’m sure I can train that out. I shoot iso/modified iso stance, thumbs forward grip, so this works alright. The holes usually end up generally where I hoped. I suspect inaccuracy arises more from trigger issues than eye dominance. I do hard physical work all day and train mostly combatives/control tactics. I spend much more time with either hand crushing and smashing and ripping stuff than I do smoothly squeezing/pressing it. It takes me longer than I would like to pick up my front sight, but I suspect this is largely an issue of not enough time/reps. I can see how the tricks/mods mentioned would help draw the eye a little faster.
For patrol rifles I have fired C7, the Canadian Forces AR-15 variant (it’s cleaner and more polite than it’s U.S. counterpart. However if you don’t apologize between round it won’t cycle properly. It also doubles as a hockey stick), and yeah, it was not so lefty friendly. I’ve also had a go on the G36, which seemed a bit more ambi-ready. Fully agree about the electronic sights. Again, it takes me a little longer than I’d like to “see” the dot. I wonder if this is a body/eye alignment thing or just a function of my woefully inadequate training time? As a matter of principle I feel like I should be able to get it done with iron sights, and here the cross dominance thing plays in again more noticeably. The tech certainly is a game changer.
With scoped/precision rifle shooting (pron with bipod) I have trouble getting proper eye relief (?) on the scope (i.e. it takes me a bit to make th black ring disappear). However I’ve done even less of this type of shooting than the others so there’s probably not anything to critique. I really struggle picking up the bead on an 870 with both eyes open.
I’ll read your posts a few more times and gnaw on it a bit. Obviously it’s not really possible to teach someone to shoot sight unseen over the interwebz, but I appreciate the consideration. However for the time being it seems like you’re advising me to shoot primarily with my strong hand and make the necessary adjustments and/or in a lot of cases for the type of shooting I’m concerned a lot of the issues wash out anyway with good technique/practice. Am I tracking correctly?
Stay safe.
I have found this thread both HIGH larious and educational.
very surprised that snake/scorpion guy didnt have a case of rip it in there.
[quote]brotardscience wrote:
I have found this thread both HIGH larious and educational.
very surprised that snake/scorpion guy didnt have a case of rip it in there.
[/quote]
OH, yes, Rip It. The unoffical go juice for the military in the Middle East. I have drank enough of the sugar free lemon lime to bleed yellow.
BTW: Been keeping up with you on your training log, glad to see you making progress on the rehab. Nothing more mentally worse that coming back from a bad injury or major surgery. keep grinding it out.
[quote]idaho wrote:
[quote]brotardscience wrote:
I have found this thread both HIGH larious and educational.
very surprised that snake/scorpion guy didnt have a case of rip it in there.
[/quote]
OH, yes, Rip It. The unoffical go juice for the military in the Middle East. I have drank enough of the sugar free lemon lime to bleed yellow.
BTW: Been keeping up with you on your training log, glad to see you making progress on the rehab. Nothing more mentally worse that coming back from a bad injury or major surgery. keep grinding it out. [/quote]
Thanks Idaho- just starting to slowly get out of the brace and off crutches, cant wait.
Ripit- so addicting.
Bad: Stay sharp, watch your 6.
[quote]idaho wrote:
Bad: Stay sharp, watch your 6.
[/quote]
I am somewhat surprised there haven’t been more attacks. I do take anything ISIS/ISIL has with a huge amount of “that is PR” salt though. There success, such as it has been, has hinged on not treeing any bad ones while talking about conquering the world.
Big picture the talk about repealing the Jones act could have much bigger implications for long term stability and US serviceman safety than ISIS.
Stay safe,
Regards,
Robert A
