Bad Ideas

Robert_A · May 20, 2014, 7:36pm

Oooh, PPSh.

7.62 Tok will do things to soft armor as well (horrible terminal performance if you don’t hit a bone, but it will poke holes).

Great pictures.

Regards,

Robert A

idaho · May 21, 2014, 3:32am

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Very Cool. Were these recovered somewhere?
[/quote]

The story I got, was they were seized by Customs on the AFG/PAKI southern border,but,I had just met the guy, and have no idea if his info is any good.

Robert_A · May 21, 2014, 9:23pm

For the Bad Ideas Category:

The Gun?

Definitely issuing it to patrol in leu of normal OC.

The child of knowledge who used it at close range.

Synopsis:

Officer used a gunpowder powered pepper gel gun at close range to subdue a woman who was DUI, I think I am supposed to write allegedly there.

Device has a recommended stand off distance of 5 feet. He used it at near contact range and the result was

[quote]From: http://blog.pe.com/breaking-news/2014/05/20/beaumont-hung-jury-mistrial-in-police-pepper-spray-case/

The blast sliced Hernandezâ??s right eye in half, fractured her right orbital bone and severed the optic nerve in her left eye, leaving her permanently blind.
[/quote]

“Less Lethal” in question

590ft/sec. muzzle velocity

Cop was charged with 4 felony assault charges and the first Jury deadlocked at 10(convict)-2.

Regards,

Robert A

idaho · May 22, 2014, 6:40am

Robert,
Thanks for posting the articles. After reading the material several times, I am left with a mixed bag of thoughts:

As a working LEO, I have a policy of not criticizing officers responses when I was not on the scene. You simply cannot fathom what the officer was feeling or thinking at the time he /she took action. A situation which may cause threat issues in one officer, may, not even register on the threat scale of another. That being said:

I have been involved in 3 excessive force civil suits and based on that experience, the officer and the city of Beaumont, are in for about three years of severe litigation and media scrutiny. The officer’s life will never be the same and his career in law enforcement is over, whether he is found innocent or guilty.
I have been out of the civilian side of law enforcement for some time and I hope Mapwrap will jump in and update me on some of the more exotic non lethal devices. I am qualified on the Tazer and OC spray from a can, but, I do not know anything about the “Jet Protector Gun”. From first impressions, it seems incredibility stupid to me. You are carrying a device that fires a OC “bullet” traveling at 405/583 MPH and you think that is “non-lethal” . What? no one ever heard of crushing a trachea? Did someone actually think you could safetly shoot someone in the face, with no damage? Did the company sell it that way?
After watching the video, it appeared the test subects were at least 15 feet away from the muzzle, ok, you need to incapacitate someone at that range, is OC spray really the best method? I have shot several people with non lethal .12 gauge rounds at that range, with good results. Gas at 15 feet? I am not seeing this. When I was wearing a uniform, we carried OC spray for CLOSE encounters. Maybe times have changed and I hope Mapwrap educates me on this issue, it seems, I am behind the times.
Ok, I was not on the scene, so , I only got the video to compare, but, I am having a problem visualizing the amount of resistance the suspect could generate. Based on the partial upper body shot, it doesnt appear she was a hardened gang banger or Sinaloa cartel member. Was she going for his gun? trying to bring her own weapon into play? trying to gouge his eyes out? dont know, I was’nt there.
Simply speaking from my butt, I think the real problem lies in lack of “empty hand skills” and a attitude of too much reliance on technology. I dont want to come off like a dinosaur, because, I rely on it every day for my job, but, there seems to be a growing trend in my world to skip the basics of “unarmed combat” on focus on the latest and greatest hand held weapon. I disagree. Having a foundation in good controlling skills would have probably served that officer well and more importantly, gave him the confidence of not relying on the OC gun.
Beaumont Police Department training Division: You issued a non lethal weapon firing a gas bullet at 500 MPH. What was your training curriculum? Did you train your officers to fire that gun at three feet? Did you explain that this weapon was to be only used at a certain distance? Did you realize that on the street, officers cant carry a tape measure? and these guns will be used at whatever “feet” the officer feels the threat? Have you no physical controlling program or do you just train the ASP baton or spray? What does your inservice training feature on non lethal weapons? Did you issue it because it looks like a Star Trek Phazer? The officer bears the responsibility for his actions, but, you as the “parent” gave him the weapons. What your is role in this? Because, believe me, the civil attorneys are going to be crawling all over you.

Robert_A · May 22, 2014, 9:07pm

[quote]idaho wrote:

Beaumont Police Department training Division: You issued a non lethal weapon firing a gas bullet at 500 MPH. What was your training curriculum? Did you train your officers to fire that gun at three feet? Did you explain that this weapon was to be only used at a certain distance? Did you realize that on the street, officers cant carry a tape measure? and these guns will be used at whatever “feet” the officer feels the threat? Have you no physical controlling program or do you just train the ASP baton or spray? What does your inservice training feature on non lethal weapons? Did you issue it because it looks like a Star Trek Phazer? The officer bears the responsibility for his actions, but, you as the “parent” gave him the weapons. What your is role in this? Because, believe me, the civil attorneys are going to be crawling all over you.
[/quote]

The one thing I am sure of is that those responsible for gear selection should be invited to pursue an exciting and rewarding career in a field where there decisions (if you could call them that)have less chance of endangering the public and non-fucktards. I am pretty solid in that judgement.

RE: Officer

I didn’t see the evidence at his criminal trial. I only posted a few of the stories, but none of what I could dig up indicated he was responding to a “lethal force” level of threat. Rather, that he was trying to gain compliance of a drunk/disorderly/non-cooperative woman and had to use some level of force. There is supposedly video, but it hasn’t been released (my suspicion is that it shows the victim in a negative light). It seems he tried to use the uber-pepper blaster as a regular can of OC (in a situation where spray OC would have been completely called for), and did so at a range where it was functionally more like a two shot .38 derringer loaded with rat/snake shot. So the end result is he used lethal force in a situation he shouldn’t have.

Several minutes on the JPX website makes it pretty clear that no one should have expected a different result from a near contact/close range shot. I reject categorically the idea that he couldn’t have figured out that the JPX was going to fuck someone up at slow dance range. He is intelligent enough to have a gun and arrest powers, he could figure that out. If he would have stabbed her in the eye with a pen it would be the same thing.

My big question in his particular case is how long was it issued before the incident, and what type of training did the officers recieve. I would like to think they would have had the cursory familiarization needed to show why the damn thing is a “bad idea” for a close range tool, but I get the feeling a department that would issue the JPX as a “bat belt” may not be all about “due diligence”.

IF the officer was trained and taught about the properties of the gun, and he elected to use it in a way that anyone can see would likely cause death or maiming than I think the criminal charges were/are completely appropriate. If he received essentially no training, or was told it was “like OC”, I am not sure about his individual responsibility to know what the fuck he is using.

The hung jury may speak to a “difficult” level of provable guilt, or just be evidence that criminal juries by and large like cops. Civil liability is going to be very messy.

RE: The Gun

It strikes me as a gadget/gimmick for folks that want or need a real firearm, but cannot/will not get one. I think it is made in Sweden so that may be its targeted market. It may be a great tool for some very specific situations, but they have to be pretty damn finely crafted.

It doesn’t look like a great OC substitute to me, specifically because it shouldn’t be used at range. Maybe it is more of a poor man’s FN 303 (and the Snelgrove shooting showed that “less” lethal doesn’t equal “non” lethal.)

Closing:

I think the fact the officer has already sat through one criminal trial, and may well get tried again and that he may not be covered with QI or department indemnification for civil tort is reason enough for the take home to be “Know your gear.”

I doubt very much he wanted to maim/kill, but he did. And it seems to have been completely preventable. I think it is the case of someone trying to use the wrong tool to do their job, and having a bad result.

Regards,

Robert A

Will207 · May 22, 2014, 9:35pm

[quote]idaho wrote:

Simply speaking from my butt, I think the real problem lies in lack of “empty hand skills” and a attitude of too much reliance on technology. I dont want to come off like a dinosaur, because, I rely on it every day for my job, but, there seems to be a growing trend in my world to skip the basics of “unarmed combat” on focus on the latest and greatest hand held weapon. I disagree. Having a foundation in good controlling skills would have probably served that officer well and more importantly, gave him the confidence of not relying on the OC gun.
[/quote]

You’re not speaking from your butt. This is problem everywhere. Recently I made an arrest and it took three of us to get the guy into custody(huge, motivated MF). No one was injured and we got the job done using only physical control. We were criticized by other members for not using batons or OC. It wasn’t necessary, and it would have made things much worse.

Will207 · May 22, 2014, 9:46pm

I just did some quick calculations and 500mph is more than twice the velocity of a regulation paintball marker, and is approaching the muzzle velocity of .45ACP out of a pistol.

idaho · May 23, 2014, 4:42am

[quote]Will207 wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:

Simply speaking from my butt, I think the real problem lies in lack of “empty hand skills” and a attitude of too much reliance on technology. I dont want to come off like a dinosaur, because, I rely on it every day for my job, but, there seems to be a growing trend in my world to skip the basics of “unarmed combat” on focus on the latest and greatest hand held weapon. I disagree. Having a foundation in good controlling skills would have probably served that officer well and more importantly, gave him the confidence of not relying on the OC gun.
[/quote]

You’re not speaking from your butt. This is problem everywhere. Recently I made an arrest and it took three of us to get the guy into custody(huge, motivated MF). No one was injured and we got the job done using only physical control. We were criticized by other members for not using batons or OC. It wasn’t necessary, and it would have made things much worse.
[/quote]

Robert,
As usual, a well thought out and excellent post.

Will207,
I am baffled by the criticism you received from your brother officers. Anyone with any experience knows, that physical control is so much more desirable to employ, because it negates a tremendous amount of problems. Once the ASP/ PR-24/ Straight baton/OC spray/ comes out , then the whole dynamics of the encounter change. I dont know about your agency, but, baton strikes/OC spray, has to be justified with a Use of Force Report, not simply recording, “suspect was subdued by physical control”. Also, its a fact of life that the public will tolerate a “football tackle” with multiple officers,compared to multiple officers swinging batons.

Concerning the Beaumont officer: (again speaking from my butt)

Simply dealing with a combative female may have been one of the reasons he deployed the OC bullet before he thought the action through. Based on my own personal experience, I have worked with officers who, unless the female was armed with a gun or knife, were extremely reluctant to go “hands on” with a combative female and usually they are correct in that assumption, because it is a lose/lose situation, especially in a rookie.

Use too much force and you can cause physical damage, use too little and she will end up hurting you, its a delicate balance, especially when a crowd is around and you look like the badguy no matter what you do.

Once again, it comes back to good controlling skills and from my experience with arresting women, get over with as fast as possible, because nothing draws a crowd like a female screaming “get your hand off my tits, you bastard” while trying to handcuff her.

Will207 · May 23, 2014, 1:08pm

[quote]idaho wrote:

Will207,
I am baffled by the criticism you received from your brother officers. Anyone with any experience knows, that physical control is so much more desirable to employ, because it negates a tremendous amount of problems. Once the ASP/ PR-24/ Straight baton/OC spray/ comes out , then the whole dynamics of the encounter change. I dont know about your agency, but, baton strikes/OC spray, has to be justified with a Use of Force Report, not simply recording, “suspect was subdued by physical control”. Also, its a fact of life that the public will tolerate a “football tackle” with multiple officers,compared to multiple officers swinging batons.
[/quote]

Physical control is much more desirable for those who are competent in empty hand techniques. A plague I see in my agency is the over reliance on tools. My previous employment had me going hands on with people almost every single day, and I didn’t have any tools to fall back on. These guys think if things go sideways, they’ll just pull out the OC or baton and the problem will be solved. I’ve seen guys laugh off the OC. I’ve seen guys get hit with the baton and then take it away from the officer. We got it back by utilizing physical control, but it easily could have gone the other way if we lost that control.

I don’t see things getting better anytime soon. Our current UoF instructor is great, but the guy we are getting has said things such as “I don’t know why people work out harder than they have to; if you’ve passed the test, you’ve met the standard and anything over that is pointless”. Pathetic.

Robert_A · May 24, 2014, 11:17pm

[quote]Will207 wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:

Will207,
I am baffled by the criticism you received from your brother officers. Anyone with any experience knows, that physical control is so much more desirable to employ, because it negates a tremendous amount of problems. Once the ASP/ PR-24/ Straight baton/OC spray/ comes out , then the whole dynamics of the encounter change. I dont know about your agency, but, baton strikes/OC spray, has to be justified with a Use of Force Report, not simply recording, “suspect was subdued by physical control”. Also, its a fact of life that the public will tolerate a “football tackle” with multiple officers,compared to multiple officers swinging batons.
[/quote]

Physical control is much more desirable for those who are competent in empty hand techniques. A plague I see in my agency is the over reliance on tools. My previous employment had me going hands on with people almost every single day, and I didn’t have any tools to fall back on. These guys think if things go sideways, they’ll just pull out the OC or baton and the problem will be solved. I’ve seen guys laugh off the OC. I’ve seen guys get hit with the baton and then take it away from the officer. We got it back by utilizing physical control, but it easily could have gone the other way if we lost that control.

I don’t see things getting better anytime soon. Our current UoF instructor is great, but the guy we are getting has said things such as “I don’t know why people work out harder than they have to; if you’ve passed the test, you’ve met the standard and anything over that is pointless”. Pathetic.
[/quote]

I can see the wrong kind of lessons being learned from the Fullerton PD:Kelly Thomas incident and the result being “don’t go hands on”. I suspect the same administrators who would be inclined to “learn” that lesson are the same folks I could market the newest Wonder Widget (because training is hard and thinking is tough) to.

Kelly Thomas video

Wiki Page

As an aside Will207,

I am beginning to develop a strong dislike for the administrators/higher ups you have to deal with. They seem to be creating an environment where officers need to take incoming fire before acting appropriately, but cannot be appropriate with “hands on” techniques earlier. You have both my sympathy and respect.

Regards,

Robert A

idaho · May 25, 2014, 11:28am

Will207 wrote:

“Our current UoF instructor is great, but the guy we are getting has said things such as “I don’t know why people work out harder than they have to; if you’ve passed the test, you’ve met the standard and anything over that is pointless”. Pathetic.”

This is one of the most profoundly ignorant statements I have ever read, and, to think it was said by a “police trainer”. Obviously, this person, besides being supremely stupid, has never, ever, faced a lethal force or combat situation. He is probably so out of combat shape, he couldnt win a pillow fight with a naked nymph. Pathetic, indeed.

Will207 · May 25, 2014, 2:10pm

[quote]idaho wrote:
Will207 wrote:

“Our current UoF instructor is great, but the guy we are getting has said things such as “I don’t know why people work out harder than they have to; if you’ve passed the test, you’ve met the standard and anything over that is pointless”. Pathetic.”

This is one of the most profoundly ignorant statements I have ever read, and, to think it was said by a “police trainer”. Obviously, this person, besides being supremely stupid, has never, ever, faced a lethal force or combat situation. He is probably so out of combat shape, he couldnt win a pillow fight with a naked nymph. Pathetic, indeed.[/quote]

The only positive thing that may come out of this is the chance to hit the guy. He’s an embarrassment to the working ranks, but the higher ups LOVE this guy. He’s not just out of combat shape, my friend. When he actually shows up at calls, which we try to prevent, someone usually runs interference to get him out of there ASAP due to the shame.

I’m sure he’ll be promoted and will influence policy in the future.

Dude623 · May 26, 2014, 3:32am

Solid useful dialog , thank you gentlemen.

idaho · May 26, 2014, 2:57pm

Not a “bad” read, check it out when you have time:

Robert_A · May 26, 2014, 9:23pm

[quote]idaho wrote:
Not a “bad” read, check it out when you have time:

MMA Origins Memorial Day Special: History of U.S. Military Hand-to-Hand Programs - Bloody Elbow [/quote]

Good read. I liked how the author noticed the similarities between combatives, LINE, and traditional arts. When ever I see combatives demos I pretty much just see traditional jujutsu/TMA with cargo pockets and boots instead of comfy and slimming pajamas.

Now, in the interest of comedy:

Bad Idea: removing the http:// when you copy a link so that

becomes

If a luddite like myself is catching “tech” errors for you than you are going to be useless as tits on a boar when Skynett becomes self aware.

Regards,

Robert A

Robert_A · May 26, 2014, 10:36pm

Ok,

I debated posting this anywhere, and where to post if I did.

I settled on this thread.

This is spurred by both the fact that it is May 26 (For international members that is Memorial Day in the United States, a day where we ostensibly honor those men and women who died while serving in the armed forces of The United States of America) and that yesterday I learned that an acquaintance/family friend who served with honor and legitimately had “scalps on the wall” killed himself.

I am writing this very much as an outsider. I never served. I am not currently, nor have I ever been a sworn officer. I have been that first ear/sounding board for people in the past. I also “would have been” one for several others. I do not intend any disrespect towards any current or fallen military by talking about this today, and in a thread that is very LEO, as opposed to .mil, centric. I do not intend any disrespect to the sacrifices of those who died in service by talking about issues outside of combat.

Events change everyone. We are absolutely creatures of learning. It is completely normal, and desirable for experience to shape and change us. Usually the change is adaptive, and we are the better for it. This is a board/sub forum where experience is honored for the wisdom and perspective it brings. Sometimes, however, events witnessed, done to us, or participated in can leave us not wholly “ok”, at least for a little while.

There should be no shame in recognizing this in ourselves. Knowledge of Self is not weakness, it is the foundation of strength. If there is any shame, it should be for practicing self deception.

Before making a decision to seek a permanent “solution” to what is often a temporary problem please seek other options. Talk to someone. I will break professional standards/risk management and say that initial someone does not have to be “qualified evaluation and treatment”. If you are more comfortable with “been there, done that” council, than seek it out. IF you perceive there to be stigma or real repercussions for formal help, at least find some informal conversation.

I am addressing this to anyone who reads it, but especially those of you who make your living by going into harm’s way (and at the risk of disrespecting military sacrifice by posting in what is sort of an LEO thread at current). You have careers that prove you can manage and solve significant problems. You are no strangers to the process of honest self evaluation, and the fact that enlightenment and improvement is often a painful process. It requires not just “feeling” weak at times, but admitting weakness and vulnerability, swimming in it, and living IN those faults so that you learn to thrive in waters you could not previously swim in. Please let that knowledge of what you already DO inform your other choices.

Seeking council is not a shameful act. Reach out to someone whom can give perspective, or a solution, or just listen/help with the process of you solving the problem. Do what you know you are good at and find a solution. It may suck, for now, or for a while longer. You have been trained to handle suck. You may be afraid, but managing fear is a skill you excel at. You are who you are because you can be a professional in an environment of suck and fear. Remember that. Own it. There are solutions that involve you being stronger at the other end of “not ok”. Even if the best you can come up with is posting “I would like to talk about some stuff” in this thread and hoping someone with perspective reads it, start trying to find solutions.

Today we remember our honored dead. Please let us do everything we can to still be around to remember them next year.

Train hard. Stay safe.

Regards,

Robert A

idaho · May 27, 2014, 2:25am

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
Not a “bad” read, check it out when you have time:

MMA Origins Memorial Day Special: History of U.S. Military Hand-to-Hand Programs - Bloody Elbow [/quote]

Good read. I liked how the author noticed the similarities between combatives, LINE, and traditional arts. When ever I see combatives demos I pretty much just see traditional jujutsu/TMA with cargo pockets and boots instead of comfy and slimming pajamas.

Now, in the interest of comedy:

Bad Idea: removing the http:// when you copy a link so that

becomes

If a luddite like myself is catching “tech” errors for you than you are going to be useless as tits on a boar when Skynett becomes self aware.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

LOL…noted, Sir…Being a professional Knuckle Dragger, I am lucky to even know how to turn on a laptop. If it doesnt have a trigger, can’t cut you with it or use it bash you over the head, I really am useless as a boar with tits…Skynett…we are going to need our .50 cal’s.

idaho · May 27, 2014, 2:30am

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Ok,