[quote]pat wrote:
Evolution cannot make things moral or immoral.[/quote]
Aye. If it could bigotry of all sorts would be recognized as moral.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
It was certianly a “holy crap these big people are different” and not at all “I hate these different people”.
[/quote]
Well, according to the article raj shared, babies in general not only prefer ‘same people,’ they actually want ‘different people’ harmed/punished.
[quote]pat wrote:<<< This obviously isn’t a thread about morality in babies. It’s clearly an attempt to try an show God does not exist because babies have shown the capacity for morality without external influence. This argument is a fail from the get go. Having an innate capability for understanding morality is hardly a surprise. If anything, it’s quite Biblical. St. Paul said basically the same thing two millenia ago. >>>[/quote]There he goes again. Absolutely brilliant Pat. If you ever began to show forth the slightest hint of taking this seriously, it would at least give some minimal basis for taking your claim of being a Christian seriously too.
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
All something like this does is provide a different platform for adults to declare THEIR moral presuppositions under the guise of a scientific exercise. All we know is what the adults THINK these kids are thinking which tells us about the adults and not the kids.[/quote]
This is an incredibly reasoned statement and was just going to post something similar.
And they didn’t use newborns in any of these cases from what I read. The youngest that I saw was 8 months but they’ve had time to experience the world by then and they are certainly influenced by those interactions. So of course they are going to have some sort of moral compass, we’ve given it to them.
james
[/quote]Well James, it appears you and I may have more substantive dialog in our futures than either of us may have thought.
[quote]Paul Bloom says: I think to some extent, a bias to favor the self, where the self could be people who look like me, people who act like me, people who have the same taste as me, is a very strong human bias. It’s what one would expect from a creature like us who evolved from natural selection, but it has terrible consequences.
He says it makes sense that evolution would predispose us to be wary of “the other” for survival, so we need society and parental nurturing to intervene.[/quote]This is absolutely hysterical LOL!!! And they say people like me have no basis for their beliefs. Really. These guys are a real blast!!!
[quote]
Yep, babies are pure atheists by definition in that they are virgin to even the concept of God. They lack even the concept of theology, therefore they are a-theists.[/quote]
the word atheism is composed of three parts, not just two.
the prefix a- : without, lack of
the root word theos : deity
AND
the suffix -ism : indicates a system of thought or a principle
So, no, a mere “lack of belief” is not enough.
Babies may be godless, but they certainly aren’t atheists.
Absurd use of the word.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Babies lack a belief in god. They are atheists.
[/quote]
Concede raj. Kamui was dead on. You’re trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Edit: And by the way? How do you know they lack a belief in a ‘god’ or ‘gods?’ How do you know they don’t see their mother and father as nearly all powerful beings? Or ‘quackers’ the stuffed duck, who sometimes seems to grant wishes?
[/quote]
Because the god concept is too complex for the mind of a baby[/quote]
First, God is not a complex concept. It’s very simple actually.
Second, you do not know what is or is not in the mind of a baby. God may be the only thing they know.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Why is it babies are atheist but not amoral?[/quote]
Since atheism is a conscious decision, this by definition is not true.
This whole line of reasoning is bad. If anything intrinsic moral awareness makes a case for a theist way better than an atheist. It can show that we are genetically predisposed to know and love our Creator and that it takes a willful act to dispose of it, rather than the other way around.
[quote]kamui wrote:<<< Babies may be godless >>>[/quote]Of course you know that I’m not gonna go along with this. Also, did I offend you with my last long post in the “Claiming Moral Authority” thread? Disappoint you? Haven’t gotten around to answering? Answer not deserved? None of the above?
[quote]pat wrote:<<< Second, you do not know what is or is not in the mind of a baby. God may be the only thing they know. [/quote]You are just way too much sometimes Pat. This is another brilliant statement. I don’t believe it’s true that God is the only thing they know, but for all any of these guys actually know? It just may be. The bible, while dropping some hints and inferences, doesn’t really tell us what babies know, so I don’t claim to know. I believe that they are aware of God’s existence and that they are not innocent. Just like everybody else.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:<<< Babies may be godless >>>[/quote]Of course you know that I’m not gonna go along with this. Also, did I offend you with my last long post in the “Claiming Moral Authority” thread? Disappoint you? Haven’t gotten around to answering? Answer not deserved? None of the above?
[/quote]
Don’t worry. You didn’t offended nor dissapointed me.
Your long post deserve a long answer, and have just enough time and energy for short three-liners right now.
Had an hard week, professionnaly.
Dealing with the ugly consequences of social liberalism on some of my 16 years old students.
Will answer once i get some sleep and renewed faith in humanity.
[quote]kamui wrote:<<< Don’t worry. You didn’t offended nor dissapointed me.
Your long post deserve a long answer, and have just enough time and energy for short three-liners right now. >>>[/quote]Fair enough and I understand. Nobody makes me think like You do and I am required to dedicate significant time and mental energy in my answers to you as well. I will confess, that while I could never allow a misplaced desire to seek your approval to govern my time with you, I do care what you think of me. So I start to wonder when a couple days go by.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I don’t think the concept of god in any form is simple at all for a baby
[/quote]
Neither is the concept of parents being same-like material beings who age and die, making light suddenly come on in the room due to technological victories underpinned by laws and theories of Chemistry and Physics.
[/quote]
The good thing about Chemistry and Physics is that they don’t cease to affect you just because you don’t know anything about them.
[quote]kamui wrote:
What is an atheist?
The prefix a-: without, lack of
And the root word theos: deity
Where did “ism” come into this? At any rate, why are you playing semantics games?
Babies have no concept of God, ergo atheists.
[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< Babies have no concept of God, ergo atheists.[/quote]If I may be so abrasive as to defile your blissful meaningless life with my intrusive presence for a moment. How is it exactly that you “know” this again? Do they call you up and tell you? Do they speak Makavalian? “goo goo ga ga, pppppppzzzrt, ffffuuurrrppp, yaba daba doo”. Which translated means, “psst, yo mak. I have no concept of God” ?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< Babies have no concept of God, ergo atheists.[/quote]If I may be so abrasive as to defile your blissful meaningless life with my intrusive presence for a moment. How is it exactly that you “know” this again? Do they call you up and tell you? Do they speak Makavalian? “goo goo ga ga, pppppppzzzrt, ffffuuurrrppp, yaba daba doo”. Which translated means, “psst, yo mak. I have no concept of God” ?
[/quote]
Because children have to be taught about God, you idiot.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< Babies have no concept of God, ergo atheists.[/quote]If I may be so abrasive as to defile your blissful meaningless life with my intrusive presence for a moment. How is it exactly that you “know” this again? Do they call you up and tell you? Do they speak Makavalian? “goo goo ga ga, pppppppzzzrt, ffffuuurrrppp, yaba daba doo”. Which translated means, “psst, yo mak. I have no concept of God” ?
[/quote]
Because children have to be taught about God, you idiot.[/quote]I’ll try again. And you know this how?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I don’t think the concept of god in any form is simple at all for a baby
[/quote]
Neither is the concept of parents being same-like material beings who age and die, making light suddenly come on in the room due to technological victories underpinned by laws and theories of Chemistry and Physics.
[/quote]
The good thing about Chemistry and Physics is that they don’t cease to affect you just because you don’t know anything about them.[/quote]
What does that have to do with this thread?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I don’t think the concept of god in any form is simple at all for a baby
[/quote]
Neither is the concept of parents being same-like material beings who age and die, making light suddenly come on in the room due to technological victories underpinned by laws and theories of Chemistry and Physics.
[/quote]
The good thing about Chemistry and Physics is that they don’t cease to affect you just because you don’t know anything about them.[/quote]
What does have that have to do with this thread?
[/quote]He figured he’d pop in and make a great analogous point about how belief in God or not has nothing to do with the fact of His creating and running the universe as He sees fit to His own purpose and glory. Folks just can’t hide that image of God. Not even babies.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I don’t think the concept of god in any form is simple at all for a baby
[/quote]
Neither is the concept of parents being same-like material beings who age and die, making light suddenly come on in the room due to technological victories underpinned by laws and theories of Chemistry and Physics.
[/quote]
The good thing about Chemistry and Physics is that they don’t cease to affect you just because you don’t know anything about them.[/quote]
Don’t look now, but God and religion just affected you, by a act of your own will. Just sayin’