Australia on Gay Marriage

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]lucasa wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

When you really stop and think about it…it’s basically the most insanely stupid thing in the history of the universe. Only if you stop and think about it though. [/quote]

When I stop and think about it, I wonder where the ideas that all men are created equal, that all men should be treated equal under law, and that all men should be made equal by law came from. [/quote]

Now this is a reason to allow Homosexual Marriages/civil Unions. I am not against Gay Marriages at all. I just do not know what slippery slope we just went down. I have posted all my concerns about it though.

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]lucasa wrote:
When I stop and think about it, I wonder where the ideas that all men are created equal, that all men should be treated equal under law, and that all men should be made equal by law came from. [/quote]

Now this is a reason to allow Homosexual Marriages/civil Unions.[/quote]

What is?

EDIT: By this I mean, aren’t you citing the same Constitution that rather explicitly denies native Americans voting rights and validates slavery by giving slaves 3/5 of a vote despite the declaration that all men are created equal?

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[quote]lucasa wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]lucasa wrote:
When I stop and think about it, I wonder where the ideas that all men are created equal, that all men should be treated equal under law, and that all men should be made equal by law came from. [/quote]

Now this is a reason to allow Homosexual Marriages/civil Unions.[/quote]

What is?

EDIT: By this I mean, aren’t you citing the same Constitution that rather explicitly denies native Americans voting rights and validates slavery by giving slaves 3/5 of a vote despite the declaration that all men are created equal?[/quote]

Yes, but there are now amendments that allow that.

And it is those words, “Rights Endowed by their Creator that all men are created equal.” I like the fact that God (Creator), oops another change but the same meaning, is in the Constitution.

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[quote]lucasa wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

When you really stop and think about it…it’s basically the most insanely stupid thing in the history of the universe. Only if you stop and think about it though. [/quote]

When I stop and think about it, I wonder where the ideas that all men are created equal, that all men should be treated equal under law, and that all men should be made equal by law came from. [/quote]

From Pericles of Athens, most likely.

45

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

And it is those words, “Rights Endowed by their Creator that all men are created equal.” I like the fact that God (Creator), oops another change but the same meaning, is in the Constitution.
[/quote]

You are referring of course to the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

There is no mention of God or a creator in the Constitution.

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[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

And it is those words, “Rights Endowed by their Creator that all men are created equal.” I like the fact that God (Creator), oops another change but the same meaning, is in the Constitution.
[/quote]

You are referring of course to the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. [/quote]

Man I dropped the ball on that one. I was going to put that, but never mind.

Walks away in shame…

47

[quote]lucasa wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

When you really stop and think about it…it’s basically the most insanely stupid thing in the history of the universe. Only if you stop and think about it though. [/quote]

When I stop and think about it, I wonder where the ideas that all men are created equal, that all men should be treated equal under law, and that all men should be made equal by law came from. [/quote]

They came from men. All your “rights” come from men. They are not provided by your creator. They are able to be taken away from you. They are not the same wherever you live. Rights were created by men and the definition of those rights have been constantly changing. Sounds like the Bible. *

  • In B4, but the MEANING of those rights hasn’t changed.
48

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Oh yeah and all the people who believe in the flying spaghetti monster constantly argue about what the really old book which has been changed many times actually means and constantly come to differing conclusions.[/quote]

Here is your quote about the changes. You are saying that these “Changes” are so big that we should not believe what it says.

My argument is that the changes DO NOT change the meaning of the Bible, so the changes are pointless.

If I wrote “They’re going to see the Spaghetti Monster.” Does it change the meaning if I instead wrote “There going to see the Spaghetti Monster.” Just because I changed the word They’re does not change the meaning. You are stuck on the They’re and not the meaning.

I wish you would believe, but you chose not to and that is your choice. Just do not put me down because I choose to believe, it is my choice.

And no I did not dismiss V post.
[/quote]

Please read this over and over and over and over again:

[quote]Most changes are inconsequential, the result of mere copying errors, or the replacement of a less common word for a more common word.

But others are more important. They meant something.[/quote]

And that is the changes we know about and can find. You said it hasn’t been changed. Your wrong. Now you want to goalpost shift and say well yeah it’s changed, but not enough to matter.

No. The fucking book (which you believers can’t even agree on the meaning of anyways) has been changed over history many times.
[/quote]

I never goalpost moved anything. I asked for proof of changes. Your “changes” were not about misspellings, but about Religious people arguing about the Bible. That is meaning and not changes.
[/quote]

You asked for proof of the Bible being changed. I delivered it to you. Including from your gospels. You seem to not want to accept it or handwave it away. That doesn’t bother me, but quit acting like it doesn’t exist or changing what you asked me to prove.

I said:

The Bible has changed and been manipulated by men.

You said: What evidence?

I provided evidence.

You go: Well that’s not BIG changes. They let Jesus keep the same name, you’re still wrong!

No you’re wrong, you know you’re wrong, and you seem to want to try and act like it doesn’t meet the criteria you were after.

49

[quote]H factor wrote:

They came from men. All your “rights” come from men. They are not provided by your creator. They are able to be taken away from you. They are not the same wherever you live. Rights were created by men and the definition of those rights have been constantly changing. [/quote]

I couldn’t disagree with this more.

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

They came from men. All your “rights” come from men. They are not provided by your creator. They are able to be taken away from you. They are not the same wherever you live. Rights were created by men and the definition of those rights have been constantly changing. [/quote]

I couldn’t disagree with this more.

[/quote]

And I couldn’t wish it wasn’t the case more, but it wholeheartedly is. Ask the people in Boston about their rights as they searched for the bomber. Your rights exist until the powers that be say they don’t in whatever society you choose to live in. This has ALWAYS been the case. Your rights came from men, are supposed to be protected by men, and can be taken away by men. They have changed throughout the course of history and vary by location. You are not entitled to anything merely because you were born even if you think a creator put you here.

Even the founding fathers said piss on your rights when they got in the way of what a government “needs” to do. See the whiskey rebellion for an early example.

51

[quote]H factor wrote:
Ask the people in Boston about their rights as they searched for the bomber. [/quote]

I don’t have to ask anyone, I lived through it.

[quote] Your rights exist until the powers that be say they don’t in whatever society you choose to live in. This has ALWAYS been the case.

[/quote]

This is where your proverbial train falls off the track. Your rights exist whether or not your government or rulers recognize them or not. They don’t just disappear. They become oppressed, stifled, or otherwise prevented from exercising, but they don’t ever stop being your rights as a human on this planet.

I’ll be honest, this is a very statist/progressive view you have here.

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[quote]H factor wrote:
Your rights came from men, [/quote]

Wrong. Your rights come from the fact you are human.

Hence the 2nd.

You are confusing recognition by government with existence.

[quote] You are not entitled to anything merely because you were born even if you think a creator put you here.

[/quote]

This is wrong again. You are entitled to freedom, you are entitled to defend yourself from demise, you are entitled to choose whom governs you and by what means, and you are entitled to improve your “lot in life”.

These facts don’t change because the whims of evil people. Other people don’t determine your life or well being without your consent.

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Ask the people in Boston about their rights as they searched for the bomber. [/quote]

I don’t have to ask anyone, I lived through it.

[quote] Your rights exist until the powers that be say they don’t in whatever society you choose to live in. This has ALWAYS been the case.

[/quote]

This is where your proverbial train falls off the track. Your rights exist whether or not your government or rulers recognize them or not. They don’t just disappear. They become oppressed, stifled, or otherwise prevented from exercising, but they don’t ever stop being your rights as a human on this planet.

I’ll be honest, this is a very statist/progressive view you have here. [/quote]

No it’s an honest and pragmatic view. It’s a realistic view. I WISH you were right. Maybe they don’t stop existing in a you should have them sort of sense if that makes you feel nice and warm. In a you actually have these rights sense you’re completely wrong and sadly we both know it.

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[quote]H factor wrote:

No it’s an honest and pragmatic view. It’s a realistic view. [/quote]

No, it is a slave’s view.

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

No it’s an honest and pragmatic view. It’s a realistic view. [/quote]

No, it is a slave’s view.

[/quote]

Yes. You’re every bit as much of a slave as I am. IF they want to take it away they can and they will. Ask the Japanese we put in internment camps how far their rights took them. Did they slow down for your rights in Boston? You WERE a slave. Pretending your rights continue to exist sounds great, but I’m a realist. They stop the moment the boots tell you they stop.

Doesn’t mean you can’t resist if you like. Your recognized rights can end at any time. Effectively for us this means they end. You think my Dad had rights when he got drafted?

56

[quote]H factor wrote:
You’re every bit as much of a slave as I am. [/quote]

Not really, not at all.

Hence the 2nd.

Having rights doesn’t mean you don’t have to work to defend them.

Theirs were infringed. They had a choice. Go peacefully and give them up, or stand up and fight.

No, they infringed them.

No, I was a prisoner. Massive difference.

And during a hunt for a terrorist is not really the proper time to take up arms against tyranny. You tend to have to wait until the right time, and sort of force the hand of government to draw first blood.

The only moral war is a defensive one.

[quote] Pretending your rights continue to exist sounds great, but I’m a realist. They stop the moment the boots tell you they stop.

Doesn’t mean you can’t resist if you like. Your recognized rights can end at any time. Effectively for us this means they end. [/quote]

You are the type of person who would open fire on his own people because the government told him to do it. That is what this mind set, this view point is.

Your father had a choice.

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
You’re every bit as much of a slave as I am. [/quote]

Not really, not at all.

Hence the 2nd.

Having rights doesn’t mean you don’t have to work to defend them.

Theirs were infringed. They had a choice. Go peacefully and give them up, or stand up and fight.

No, they infringed them.

No, I was a prisoner. Massive difference.

And during a hunt for a terrorist is not really the proper time to take up arms against tyranny. You tend to have to wait until the right time, and sort of force the hand of government to draw first blood.

The only moral war is a defensive one.

[quote] Pretending your rights continue to exist sounds great, but I’m a realist. They stop the moment the boots tell you they stop.

Doesn’t mean you can’t resist if you like. Your recognized rights can end at any time. Effectively for us this means they end. [/quote]

You are the type of person who would open fire on his own people because the government told him to do it. That is what this mind set, this view point is.

Your father had a choice. [/quote]

Oh spare me the bullshit I’d fire on my own people. I thought you were the no ad hominem guy? And you come out with I’d kill people if the government told me to do it? The fuck are you basing that on. Your judgements of a post? I’d turn the gun on myself or the government before I’d fire on an innocent person, but apparently you have me all figured out off a couple posts?

You were a prisoner? You were a little bitch who did nothing now talking a big game like you’d be up and ready to resist. Anyone can talk a big game on the internet. When push came to shove with your rights you did exactly what you were told.

Your right my father had a choice. He did what he was told. Exactly like you. Quit acting like you’re the non slave no one’s telling me what to do without a fight type of guy. You aren’t.

59

[quote]H factor wrote:

Oh spare me the bullshit I’d fire on my own people. I thought you were the no ad hominem guy? And you come out with I’d kill people if the government told me to do it? [/quote]

It isn’t a personal attack when I make observations based off of related points you openly admit to.

Your entire viewpoint on natural rights.

Hmmm… This tough guy talk is followed by a bunch of babble about how I’m not like what you say you are, because e-talk and etc…

Pretty much, for a couple of hours, yes.

lol, glad you like to turn around and do the same things you get all indignant claiming I did.

Just like you here, right now. Good job proving your point.

Yes. Mainly because it wasn’t “push came to shove”. It was a gross violation of rights, however there was a reason that too many people would see as valid. Neither I nor anyone resisting would have had enough support to make a difference. In fact it would have had the opposite effect than one would be looking for, likely striping gun rights away for more law abiding citizens.

So I would have stood my ground at the wrong time, and hurt my countrymen because I didn’t understand the basics of tact, or have the ability to understand the circumstances surrounding me.

I prefer to see it as your father took a high road and sacrificed himself so that someone else wouldn’t have to. I thank your father, and even though I don’t agree with why he was put in harms way, I understand the choice he made as a noble one.

Again, you get all indignant and then turn around and do the very thing you get indignant about. If me drawing conclusions on your own admissions bothered you so much I’m sorry, but maybe you should re-think how your viewpoints portray you to others.

[quote] Quit acting like you’re the non slave no one’s telling me what to do without a fight type of guy. You aren’t.
[/quote]

It really bothers you that I understand the way this works doesn’t it?

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When your rights were violated you did nothing.

Your “rights” ceased to exist for that time in effective purposes. If you want to say “but I still had them!” go ahead beans. You didn’t at that time. And you did nothing. The circumstance had changed what your rights meant. This has happened throughout history.

You can sugar coat that all you want and talk about timing and everything else if it makes you feel better, but the fact remains. When your rights were taken away from you (and they were) you did nothing. You might have done nothing for purely rational reasons (like why I pay taxes despite hating most of what they go towards) but the fact is you did nothing.

And I don’t blame you. I probably wouldn’t have done anything either. Been mad. bitched to people. Whined on the net. Your rights WERE “violated” (makes you feel better than ceased to exist?) and you did nothing. Men had established new rules for a while of which you followed.

Which is EXACTLY what I’ve been saying all along.