Atheists are Better than You...

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I have been reading Freud’s analysis of it.[/quote]LOL!!LOL!!! Man I wish we lived near each other Chris. Despite everything I really think we’d be buddies. I am absolutely NOT in any way poking fun at you. You are a blast my dear friend!!! Only you would think of something like that. Michelangelo’s command of the stone is truly breathtaking. Really. There aren’t words.
[/quote]
I have to say that his Moses is my favorite work of his. Cool av Chris.

82

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I like how some of the social positions are held out as basic moral principles.[/quote]

Other than the death penalty and possibly corporal punishment for children, I don’t see anything that isn’t a pretty Manichean right-and-wrong issue.

Basic morality: torture is bad, racism is bad, sexism is bad, homophobia is bad, Antisemitism is bad, environmental degradation is bad, human rights are good. That doesn’t seem too controversial.[/quote]

Yes, all ‘isms’ are black and white aren’t they? Torture some slimeball to find out where he sent the 12-year-old suicide bomber? Bad. Decide to search an Arab at the airport instead of Grandma Brown from Florida? Bad. Promote a guy because the girl is pregnant and you want to get the work done? Bad. Don’t want your 5-year-old brainwashed with a gay rights activists program at school? Bad. Simple. No controversy here. We’re all in agreement…

83

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]GCF wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

LOL

I know more believers than non-believers and I can’t say there is any difference as far as being a good person.
My dad is a believer and was totally accepting of me not being.
Maybe I just hang out with better believers, also I’m not American, so I guess those studies don’t apply to me.
[/quote]

That may be true but I know who I would rather have as my phone a friend on who wants to be a millionaire. [/quote]

I sometimes think that not all who claim to be believers really are, like politicians and people who only attend church during special occasions. As an atheist I have difficulty believing believers really believe. If that makes sense. lol
[/quote]

I know what you’re saying, but no. I think most are believers, but I think they just don’t follow it.[/quote]

LOL
So basically you think most are believers (even atheists) and I think most are atheist (even believers)?
[/quote]

No, I think that there might be some believers who say they are atheist (not sure why), but I think most atheists are genuine. What I am saying is that most believers are actual believers they just don’t take their own medicine.
[/quote]

I thought maybe you were referring to that “no atheists in a foxhole” expression, or however it goes.[/quote]

Actually I do know about 15 atheist that lived in ‘foxholes’ for 8 years, now. I think there is a good reason for the saying though, it does seem that when people learn their fate, they look for something bigger than them to appeal to. It is natural, that does mean that there isn’t any, though.

[quote]
I was not raised in a religion so my exposure was limited, friends, summer camps, etc. I wonder if I was raised in a religion if I would still be an atheist.[/quote]

Never know, I wasn’t raised religious, either. I am sure if you were raised that way and unless someone gave you unsurmountable proof you’d leave (but then again I have unsurmountable proof that atheists are wrong ;)) that you’d probably be theist because you do seem like a smart lady.

I personally didn’t grow up religiously, at all. We prayed before meals…that was it. No church, nothing. I sure didn’t have an experience of G-d (at least not physically, unless you count when I had the cognitive reaction of knowing someone was lying to me). I sat down with a blank slate (it was so bad at one point I honestly couldn’t answer if 2+2=4), and figured things out from the ground up. Started with the question “Is G-d Real?”

I am sure you can figure out what happened after about four months of going through the logical arguments. (I’ll put the reasons at the end)

Maybe I should read everything before answering. Yes, I would be a believer if I was not raised with religion, because I was not raised with religion.

Four Reasons why G-d is Real…that I can explain in a weekend (because I have a lot more, just not that much time).

  1. The Universe began to exist.
  2. The Universe is finely tuned.
  3. Objective Morality exists.
  4. Jesus of Nazareth. [/quote]

My dad would pray before meals too. My real experience, on my own, was at 11. The rule at my friends house was if you wanted to sleep over on Saturday you had to go to church with them on Sunday. I can’t remember the church (not catholic) but basically I learned that you were supposed to just feel god’s love and some crazy stories about christians being killed for their beliefs and a true christian would not lie even if it meant death. There’s more to it but that summer was a very negative experience.

I feel that when I finally learned what atheism was it was a relief.

As I don’t really understand the Big Bang(something from nothing) or DNA etc (I have some reading to do this summer) I can’t say I have proof of no intervention but I also don’t have proof of intervention.

Although as far as the universe being finally tuned(for us?), I would be more convinced if we were living on a planet that should not be able to support life.
The dice example: If the die is rolled and you get a 6 that doesn’t mean intervention (or a lack of intervention either) it just means a 6 was available(chance). You would have to prove that the universe and earth are the equivalent of rolling a 7, this would indicate intervention. I’m not sure how you would do this though. [/quote]

In other words, there is a difference between the strong and weak anthropic principle and people who come up with this “oh my, look how fine tuned the universe is to support life” shit should really know it.

Hell, it was even in a Startrek episode.

84

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
They have bigger dicks and nicer cars too :)[/quote]

This part I have bolded is indisputably wrong.[/quote]

cool, what do you drive?[/quote]

I don’t even own a car.

85

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]GCF wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

LOL

I know more believers than non-believers and I can’t say there is any difference as far as being a good person.
My dad is a believer and was totally accepting of me not being.
Maybe I just hang out with better believers, also I’m not American, so I guess those studies don’t apply to me.
[/quote]

That may be true but I know who I would rather have as my phone a friend on who wants to be a millionaire. [/quote]

I sometimes think that not all who claim to be believers really are, like politicians and people who only attend church during special occasions. As an atheist I have difficulty believing believers really believe. If that makes sense. lol
[/quote]

I know what you’re saying, but no. I think most are believers, but I think they just don’t follow it.[/quote]

LOL
So basically you think most are believers (even atheists) and I think most are atheist (even believers)?
[/quote]

No, I think that there might be some believers who say they are atheist (not sure why), but I think most atheists are genuine. What I am saying is that most believers are actual believers they just don’t take their own medicine.
[/quote]

I thought maybe you were referring to that “no atheists in a foxhole” expression, or however it goes.[/quote]

Actually I do know about 15 atheist that lived in ‘foxholes’ for 8 years, now. I think there is a good reason for the saying though, it does seem that when people learn their fate, they look for something bigger than them to appeal to. It is natural, that does mean that there isn’t any, though.

[quote]
I was not raised in a religion so my exposure was limited, friends, summer camps, etc. I wonder if I was raised in a religion if I would still be an atheist.[/quote]

Never know, I wasn’t raised religious, either. I am sure if you were raised that way and unless someone gave you unsurmountable proof you’d leave (but then again I have unsurmountable proof that atheists are wrong ;)) that you’d probably be theist because you do seem like a smart lady.

I personally didn’t grow up religiously, at all. We prayed before meals…that was it. No church, nothing. I sure didn’t have an experience of G-d (at least not physically, unless you count when I had the cognitive reaction of knowing someone was lying to me). I sat down with a blank slate (it was so bad at one point I honestly couldn’t answer if 2+2=4), and figured things out from the ground up. Started with the question “Is G-d Real?”

I am sure you can figure out what happened after about four months of going through the logical arguments. (I’ll put the reasons at the end)

Maybe I should read everything before answering. Yes, I would be a believer if I was not raised with religion, because I was not raised with religion.

Four Reasons why G-d is Real…that I can explain in a weekend (because I have a lot more, just not that much time).

  1. The Universe began to exist.
  2. The Universe is finely tuned.
  3. Objective Morality exists.
  4. Jesus of Nazareth. [/quote]

My dad would pray before meals too. My real experience, on my own, was at 11. The rule at my friends house was if you wanted to sleep over on Saturday you had to go to church with them on Sunday. I can’t remember the church (not catholic) but basically I learned that you were supposed to just feel god’s love and some crazy stories about christians being killed for their beliefs and a true christian would not lie even if it meant death. There’s more to it but that summer was a very negative experience.

I feel that when I finally learned what atheism was it was a relief.

As I don’t really understand the Big Bang(something from nothing) or DNA etc (I have some reading to do this summer) I can’t say I have proof of no intervention but I also don’t have proof of intervention.

Although as far as the universe being finally tuned(for us?), I would be more convinced if we were living on a planet that should not be able to support life.
The dice example: If the die is rolled and you get a 6 that doesn’t mean intervention (or a lack of intervention either) it just means a 6 was available(chance). You would have to prove that the universe and earth are the equivalent of rolling a 7, this would indicate intervention. I’m not sure how you would do this though. [/quote]

The more important question is, what caused the dice to roll, not the result of the casting.

86

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
They have bigger dicks and nicer cars too :)[/quote]

This part I have bolded is indisputably wrong.[/quote]

cool, what do you drive?[/quote]

I don’t even own a car.

[/quote]

You don’t need one…You got ‘coffee shops’ you can fly…

87

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I have been reading Freud’s analysis of it.[/quote]LOL!!LOL!!! Man I wish we lived near each other Chris. Despite everything I really think we’d be buddies. I am absolutely NOT in any way poking fun at you. You are a blast my dear friend!!! Only you would think of something like that. Michelangelo’s command of the stone is truly breathtaking. Really. There aren’t words.
[/quote]

I think he’d prefer you move to Arizona, rather than he move to michigan…Just sayin’ the weather is a lot better…

88

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]GCF wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

LOL

I know more believers than non-believers and I can’t say there is any difference as far as being a good person.
My dad is a believer and was totally accepting of me not being.
Maybe I just hang out with better believers, also I’m not American, so I guess those studies don’t apply to me.
[/quote]

That may be true but I know who I would rather have as my phone a friend on who wants to be a millionaire. [/quote]

I sometimes think that not all who claim to be believers really are, like politicians and people who only attend church during special occasions. As an atheist I have difficulty believing believers really believe. If that makes sense. lol
[/quote]

I know what you’re saying, but no. I think most are believers, but I think they just don’t follow it.[/quote]

LOL
So basically you think most are believers (even atheists) and I think most are atheist (even believers)?
[/quote]

No, I think that there might be some believers who say they are atheist (not sure why), but I think most atheists are genuine. What I am saying is that most believers are actual believers they just don’t take their own medicine.
[/quote]

I thought maybe you were referring to that “no atheists in a foxhole” expression, or however it goes.[/quote]

Actually I do know about 15 atheist that lived in ‘foxholes’ for 8 years, now. I think there is a good reason for the saying though, it does seem that when people learn their fate, they look for something bigger than them to appeal to. It is natural, that does mean that there isn’t any, though.

[quote]
I was not raised in a religion so my exposure was limited, friends, summer camps, etc. I wonder if I was raised in a religion if I would still be an atheist.[/quote]

Never know, I wasn’t raised religious, either. I am sure if you were raised that way and unless someone gave you unsurmountable proof you’d leave (but then again I have unsurmountable proof that atheists are wrong ;)) that you’d probably be theist because you do seem like a smart lady.

I personally didn’t grow up religiously, at all. We prayed before meals…that was it. No church, nothing. I sure didn’t have an experience of G-d (at least not physically, unless you count when I had the cognitive reaction of knowing someone was lying to me). I sat down with a blank slate (it was so bad at one point I honestly couldn’t answer if 2+2=4), and figured things out from the ground up. Started with the question “Is G-d Real?”

I am sure you can figure out what happened after about four months of going through the logical arguments. (I’ll put the reasons at the end)

Maybe I should read everything before answering. Yes, I would be a believer if I was not raised with religion, because I was not raised with religion.

Four Reasons why G-d is Real…that I can explain in a weekend (because I have a lot more, just not that much time).

  1. The Universe began to exist.
  2. The Universe is finely tuned.
  3. Objective Morality exists.
  4. Jesus of Nazareth. [/quote]

My dad would pray before meals too. My real experience, on my own, was at 11. The rule at my friends house was if you wanted to sleep over on Saturday you had to go to church with them on Sunday. I can’t remember the church (not catholic) but basically I learned that you were supposed to just feel god’s love and some crazy stories about christians being killed for their beliefs and a true christian would not lie even if it meant death. There’s more to it but that summer was a very negative experience.

I feel that when I finally learned what atheism was it was a relief.

As I don’t really understand the Big Bang(something from nothing) or DNA etc (I have some reading to do this summer) I can’t say I have proof of no intervention but I also don’t have proof of intervention.

Although as far as the universe being finally tuned(for us?), I would be more convinced if we were living on a planet that should not be able to support life.
The dice example: If the die is rolled and you get a 6 that doesn’t mean intervention (or a lack of intervention either) it just means a 6 was available(chance). You would have to prove that the universe and earth are the equivalent of rolling a 7, this would indicate intervention. I’m not sure how you would do this though. [/quote]

If you’re going to do some reading, pick up 6 Numbers…but I forget I’ll find the book when I get home.

Basically this is how I look at it, ‘chance’ stops at 1:10^150 and if this world happened by pure chance the odds that it would neither expand so fast nothing would condense and stay a hydrogen atom soup nor that it would expand and then collapse on itself is 1:10^10^1024. Yeah, it could be chance…but it is mathematically impossible that it is.

Here’s a fun fact: the Big Bang Theory was created by Monsignor Lemaitre, he was a Belgian Priest. He argued with Einstein about the theory, finally coming to the conclusion that some kind of radiation rays would be left in the universe if it was the big bang. Three weeks before he died, they found the microwaves that the rays had turned into after the big bang.

89

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]GCF wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

LOL

I know more believers than non-believers and I can’t say there is any difference as far as being a good person.
My dad is a believer and was totally accepting of me not being.
Maybe I just hang out with better believers, also I’m not American, so I guess those studies don’t apply to me.
[/quote]

That may be true but I know who I would rather have as my phone a friend on who wants to be a millionaire. [/quote]

I sometimes think that not all who claim to be believers really are, like politicians and people who only attend church during special occasions. As an atheist I have difficulty believing believers really believe. If that makes sense. lol
[/quote]

I know what you’re saying, but no. I think most are believers, but I think they just don’t follow it.[/quote]

LOL
So basically you think most are believers (even atheists) and I think most are atheist (even believers)?
[/quote]

No, I think that there might be some believers who say they are atheist (not sure why), but I think most atheists are genuine. What I am saying is that most believers are actual believers they just don’t take their own medicine.
[/quote]

I thought maybe you were referring to that “no atheists in a foxhole” expression, or however it goes.[/quote]

Actually I do know about 15 atheist that lived in ‘foxholes’ for 8 years, now. I think there is a good reason for the saying though, it does seem that when people learn their fate, they look for something bigger than them to appeal to. It is natural, that does mean that there isn’t any, though.

Argue with the science, I’m just following it.

90

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I have been reading Freud’s analysis of it.[/quote]LOL!!LOL!!! Man I wish we lived near each other Chris. Despite everything I really think we’d be buddies. I am absolutely NOT in any way poking fun at you. You are a blast my dear friend!!! Only you would think of something like that. Michelangelo’s command of the stone is truly breathtaking. Really. There aren’t words.
[/quote]

I think he’d prefer you move to Arizona, rather than he move to michigan…Just sayin’ the weather is a lot better…[/quote]

Actually, I was thinking I wanted to move to Brazil or Argentina. See if I can’t find me my wife.

91

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
They have bigger dicks and nicer cars too :)[/quote]

This part I have bolded is indisputably wrong.[/quote]

cool, what do you drive?[/quote]

I don’t even own a car.

[/quote]

You don’t need one…You got ‘coffee shops’ you can fly…
[/quote]

I quit weed 6 years ago, altough i must admit i’ve started to explore DMT recently. That’s a whole 'nother ballgame alltogether (;

92

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
They have bigger dicks and nicer cars too :)[/quote]

This part I have bolded is indisputably wrong.[/quote]

cool, what do you drive?[/quote]

I don’t even own a car.

[/quote]

You don’t need one…You got ‘coffee shops’ you can fly…
[/quote]

I quit weed 6 years ago, altough i must admit i’ve started to explore DMT recently. That’s a whole 'nother ballgame alltogether (;
[/quote]

Yes indeedy! I have not been to Europe in a while… I need to get my culture on.

93

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]GCF wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

LOL

I know more believers than non-believers and I can’t say there is any difference as far as being a good person.
My dad is a believer and was totally accepting of me not being.
Maybe I just hang out with better believers, also I’m not American, so I guess those studies don’t apply to me.
[/quote]

That may be true but I know who I would rather have as my phone a friend on who wants to be a millionaire. [/quote]

I sometimes think that not all who claim to be believers really are, like politicians and people who only attend church during special occasions. As an atheist I have difficulty believing believers really believe. If that makes sense. lol
[/quote]

I know what you’re saying, but no. I think most are believers, but I think they just don’t follow it.[/quote]

LOL
So basically you think most are believers (even atheists) and I think most are atheist (even believers)?
[/quote]

No, I think that there might be some believers who say they are atheist (not sure why), but I think most atheists are genuine. What I am saying is that most believers are actual believers they just don’t take their own medicine.
[/quote]

I thought maybe you were referring to that “no atheists in a foxhole” expression, or however it goes.[/quote]

Actually I do know about 15 atheist that lived in ‘foxholes’ for 8 years, now. I think there is a good reason for the saying though, it does seem that when people learn their fate, they look for something bigger than them to appeal to. It is natural, that does mean that there isn’t any, though.

[quote]
I was not raised in a religion so my exposure was limited, friends, summer camps, etc. I wonder if I was raised in a religion if I would still be an atheist.[/quote]

Never know, I wasn’t raised religious, either. I am sure if you were raised that way and unless someone gave you unsurmountable proof you’d leave (but then again I have unsurmountable proof that atheists are wrong ;)) that you’d probably be theist because you do seem like a smart lady.

I personally didn’t grow up religiously, at all. We prayed before meals…that was it. No church, nothing. I sure didn’t have an experience of G-d (at least not physically, unless you count when I had the cognitive reaction of knowing someone was lying to me). I sat down with a blank slate (it was so bad at one point I honestly couldn’t answer if 2+2=4), and figured things out from the ground up. Started with the question “Is G-d Real?”

I am sure you can figure out what happened after about four months of going through the logical arguments. (I’ll put the reasons at the end)

Maybe I should read everything before answering. Yes, I would be a believer if I was not raised with religion, because I was not raised with religion.

Four Reasons why G-d is Real…that I can explain in a weekend (because I have a lot more, just not that much time).

  1. The Universe began to exist.
  2. The Universe is finely tuned.
  3. Objective Morality exists.
  4. Jesus of Nazareth. [/quote]

My dad would pray before meals too. My real experience, on my own, was at 11. The rule at my friends house was if you wanted to sleep over on Saturday you had to go to church with them on Sunday. I can’t remember the church (not catholic) but basically I learned that you were supposed to just feel god’s love and some crazy stories about christians being killed for their beliefs and a true christian would not lie even if it meant death. There’s more to it but that summer was a very negative experience.

I feel that when I finally learned what atheism was it was a relief.

As I don’t really understand the Big Bang(something from nothing) or DNA etc (I have some reading to do this summer) I can’t say I have proof of no intervention but I also don’t have proof of intervention.

Although as far as the universe being finally tuned(for us?), I would be more convinced if we were living on a planet that should not be able to support life.
The dice example: If the die is rolled and you get a 6 that doesn’t mean intervention (or a lack of intervention either) it just means a 6 was available(chance). You would have to prove that the universe and earth are the equivalent of rolling a 7, this would indicate intervention. I’m not sure how you would do this though. [/quote]

The more important question is, what caused the dice to roll, not the result of the casting.[/quote]

As I already said I had not really read much lately on how it all started (big bang, dice roll) I don’t have a clear understanding of “something from nothing” but I’m not going to just believe any theory because I have to believe something.

94

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I have been reading Freud’s analysis of it.[/quote]LOL!!LOL!!! Man I wish we lived near each other Chris. Despite everything I really think we’d be buddies. I am absolutely NOT in any way poking fun at you. You are a blast my dear friend!!! Only you would think of something like that. Michelangelo’s command of the stone is truly breathtaking. Really. There aren’t words.
[/quote]

I think he’d prefer you move to Arizona, rather than he move to michigan…Just sayin’ the weather is a lot better…[/quote]

Actually, I was thinking I wanted to move to Brazil or Argentina. See if I can’t find me my wife.[/quote]

I heard Argentina is the place… Good meat too…I mean beef, not the chicks.

95

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]GCF wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

LOL

I know more believers than non-believers and I can’t say there is any difference as far as being a good person.
My dad is a believer and was totally accepting of me not being.
Maybe I just hang out with better believers, also I’m not American, so I guess those studies don’t apply to me.
[/quote]

That may be true but I know who I would rather have as my phone a friend on who wants to be a millionaire. [/quote]

I sometimes think that not all who claim to be believers really are, like politicians and people who only attend church during special occasions. As an atheist I have difficulty believing believers really believe. If that makes sense. lol
[/quote]

I know what you’re saying, but no. I think most are believers, but I think they just don’t follow it.[/quote]

LOL
So basically you think most are believers (even atheists) and I think most are atheist (even believers)?
[/quote]

No, I think that there might be some believers who say they are atheist (not sure why), but I think most atheists are genuine. What I am saying is that most believers are actual believers they just don’t take their own medicine.
[/quote]

I thought maybe you were referring to that “no atheists in a foxhole” expression, or however it goes.[/quote]

Actually I do know about 15 atheist that lived in ‘foxholes’ for 8 years, now. I think there is a good reason for the saying though, it does seem that when people learn their fate, they look for something bigger than them to appeal to. It is natural, that does mean that there isn’t any, though.

[quote]
I was not raised in a religion so my exposure was limited, friends, summer camps, etc. I wonder if I was raised in a religion if I would still be an atheist.[/quote]

Never know, I wasn’t raised religious, either. I am sure if you were raised that way and unless someone gave you unsurmountable proof you’d leave (but then again I have unsurmountable proof that atheists are wrong ;)) that you’d probably be theist because you do seem like a smart lady.

I personally didn’t grow up religiously, at all. We prayed before meals…that was it. No church, nothing. I sure didn’t have an experience of G-d (at least not physically, unless you count when I had the cognitive reaction of knowing someone was lying to me). I sat down with a blank slate (it was so bad at one point I honestly couldn’t answer if 2+2=4), and figured things out from the ground up. Started with the question “Is G-d Real?”

I am sure you can figure out what happened after about four months of going through the logical arguments. (I’ll put the reasons at the end)

Maybe I should read everything before answering. Yes, I would be a believer if I was not raised with religion, because I was not raised with religion.

Four Reasons why G-d is Real…that I can explain in a weekend (because I have a lot more, just not that much time).

  1. The Universe began to exist.
  2. The Universe is finely tuned.
  3. Objective Morality exists.
  4. Jesus of Nazareth. [/quote]

My dad would pray before meals too. My real experience, on my own, was at 11. The rule at my friends house was if you wanted to sleep over on Saturday you had to go to church with them on Sunday. I can’t remember the church (not catholic) but basically I learned that you were supposed to just feel god’s love and some crazy stories about christians being killed for their beliefs and a true christian would not lie even if it meant death. There’s more to it but that summer was a very negative experience.

I feel that when I finally learned what atheism was it was a relief.

As I don’t really understand the Big Bang(something from nothing) or DNA etc (I have some reading to do this summer) I can’t say I have proof of no intervention but I also don’t have proof of intervention.

Although as far as the universe being finally tuned(for us?), I would be more convinced if we were living on a planet that should not be able to support life.
The dice example: If the die is rolled and you get a 6 that doesn’t mean intervention (or a lack of intervention either) it just means a 6 was available(chance). You would have to prove that the universe and earth are the equivalent of rolling a 7, this would indicate intervention. I’m not sure how you would do this though. [/quote]

If you’re going to do some reading, pick up 6 Numbers…but I forget I’ll find the book when I get home.

Basically this is how I look at it, ‘chance’ stops at 1:10^150 and if this world happened by pure chance the odds that it would neither expand so fast nothing would condense and stay a hydrogen atom soup nor that it would expand and then collapse on itself is 1:10^10^1024. Yeah, it could be chance…but it is mathematically impossible that it is.

Here’s a fun fact: the Big Bang Theory was created by Monsignor Lemaitre, he was a Belgian Priest. He argued with Einstein about the theory, finally coming to the conclusion that some kind of radiation rays would be left in the universe if it was the big bang. Three weeks before he died, they found the microwaves that the rays had turned into after the big bang.[/quote]

I don’t mind reading alternative theories. I googled 6 numbers but it came up as, I think bible verse?. Is it based on this?

96

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

The dice example: If the die is rolled and you get a 6 that doesn’t mean intervention (or a lack of intervention either) it just means a 6 was available(chance). You would have to prove that the universe and earth are the equivalent of rolling a 7, this would indicate intervention. I’m not sure how you would do this though. [/quote]

The more important question is, what caused the dice to roll, not the result of the casting.[/quote]

As I already said I had not really read much lately on how it all started (big bang, dice roll) I don’t have a clear understanding of “something from nothing” but I’m not going to just believe any theory because I have to believe something.
[/quote]

I have read quite a bit on the matter. I’ll give you a quick synopsis, nobody knows. That doesn’t mean there’s not interesting theories, but despite all the brilliant math and science, nobody can explain the contingency and the why.

97

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

I don’t mind reading alternative theories. I googled 6 numbers but it came up as, I think bible verse?. Is it based on this?[/quote]

Nope this book: http://www.amazon.com/Just-Six-Numbers-Forces-Universe/dp/0465036724

98

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

The dice example: If the die is rolled and you get a 6 that doesn’t mean intervention (or a lack of intervention either) it just means a 6 was available(chance). You would have to prove that the universe and earth are the equivalent of rolling a 7, this would indicate intervention. I’m not sure how you would do this though. [/quote]

The more important question is, what caused the dice to roll, not the result of the casting.[/quote]

As I already said I had not really read much lately on how it all started (big bang, dice roll) I don’t have a clear understanding of “something from nothing” but I’m not going to just believe any theory because I have to believe something.
[/quote]

I have read quite a bit on the matter. I’ll give you a quick synopsis, nobody knows. That doesn’t mean there’s not interesting theories, but despite all the brilliant math and science, nobody can explain the contingency and the why. [/quote]

Exactly, and I consider god, as the reason for all, to also be a theory. Although I have not read much science to back up the god theory other than absence of enough evidence(that I can understand) to support an alternative.

My understanding of how it began has always been and will always be a work in progress.