Atheism-o-Phobia

[ephrem]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[

…you talk about acts of morality that go against instinct? I’m not sure, your point was lost in verbosity. Could you give me an example?[/quote]

Sorry, I know I need to work on improving my breviloquence.

Well, pick one. Living in Japan, I want to have sex with about 50% of the women I see, and, as a reasonably good looking foreign male living in Japan, I could probably act on that desire as often as I pleased. Yay me. But I mysteriously obey this abstract, metaphysical entity called “my conscience” and heroically manage to confine the sex to myself and my wife.

Or, a man has fallen through thin ice and will surely die, another man, a complete stranger, jumps into the icy water to save him, despite the extreme danger to his own life. Say what you will, but acts such as these are examples of overcoming a MASSIVE inner push to do exactly the opposite.

The desires toward survival and procreation are the two strongest instincts we possess. We are pushed from within by these strongest of drives, yet there is this something that clearly comes from without, that is NOT a drive, that acts in direct OPPOSITION to those strongest of drives, and we obey that one. Evolution does a great job at explaining processes that motivate us from within, but it cannot account for the absolutely illogical thwarting of its most deeply ingrained structures.

There is also a logical problem you get into when you try to account for morality via evolution, but I’ll save that one. It’s nearly 4am again.
[/quote]

…i think conscience is strongly connected to compassion and empathic abilities. This in turn has, imo, to do with how we relate to someone else as if it was ourselves. If the tables were turned and your, presumably, hot wife would sleep around, you wouldn’t like that very much…

…i remember a sci-fi short story about an E.T. who couldn’t understand why a police officer would chase a criminal and be prepared to shoot him if necessary, but still tries to save the criminal when he almost plunges to his death. I think this is an evolutionary quid-pro-quo mechanism [yes, i did it again] where you’d save your fellow hunter from being mauled so he may return the favor in the future…

…the opposite is also true; that a large group of people become paralized and do not act when another person is in distress. A couple of years ago a young girl drowned and maybe 20 or 30 people were standing around doing nothing. The lake was only 4 or 5 feet deep, and the girl could have easily been saved…

http://www.psychwiki.com/wiki/The_Bystander_Apathy_Effect

…i honestly believe, and this should come as no surprise, that any and all behaviour is psychological, evolutionary and socially influenced without a nebulous injection of morality from a god. Goodnight, sleep tight and give thanks you don’t live in the US or the bedbugs might actually bite!

[Makavali]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
presumably, hot wife[/quote]

Don’t presume, I can tell you straight up, she’s pretty damn hot.

[ephrem]

…is there something you want to share with the rest of the class, Mak?

Hmmm…?

[krsoneeeee]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

1. Youve proven multiple times you cannot respond with any manner of respect.
   [/quote]

Only to you. Your first posts in this thread, before I ever engaged you, were full of condescension, spite, and meanness. You’ll receive exactly what you give.

2. Youve proven multiple times you are the one that fails to apply common sense to an argument.

If by “apply common sense,” you mean, “completely rearrange what we are talking about so that it means something else entirely, then claim victory and superior intellect in a tone of sneering, mongoloid derision,” then yeah, I admit it, you got me.

3. I am not saying I’m right(but you seem to be saying you are) - I am simply flipping the coin to another perspective, one of which you seemingly cannot grasp.

The only thing I’m having trouble grasping is your command of the English language.
Your so-called coin flipping is yet another dodge from dealing with the real point, which was that murdering anyone, no matter what the utilitarian outcome, is not moral. Doesn’t become moral. Is not one degree more or less moral.

Don’t agree with me, then quit dodging my question and answer it for crying out loud: Would you feel GOOD about having killed a baby, in the above example? Quit hiding behind your sophistic twisting of circumstances and answer the question.

I understand your point of view that circumstance doesnt change the morality of an act but i think it does - FUN TIP OF THE DAY: If you had of just said that, you would have got your point across a lot quicker and coherently.

Uhh, pretty sure I did say that.

Oh, here it is, from way back on page 36, in a response to you, of all people:

Where I come from, killing babies is wrong no matter what your justification for it.

Just because an act contains some perceived benefit does not justify the act itself. Morals are not suddenly transformed by situations. They inform our response to situations. They remain, despite all our justifications.

All yours. Coin-flip away.

[/quote]

Way to use a few hundreds words and add nothing to the conversion, although you do that a lot - What a nice command of the english language you have.

Ill use a few sentences to sum up the situation although I thought I already had.

To answer your question, again!, No one would enjoy killing a baby, but the POINT of the argument I was trying to discuss is as follows;

1. morals seem to be a inert feeling of what is right and wrong.
2. killing a baby is wrong, and by itself an immoral act.
3. (THIS WAS MY POINT) - When there was a situational change, where your options were to kill one person(baby) or kill 6 billion people, it would be WRONG to not kill the baby and RIGHT to save the greater amount of people. HENCE the act of killing the baby would not be immoral because you could justify it as the right thing to do. And whilst you would not rejoice in the fact the baby is dead, you would feel good that you had saved the entire human population.

So the point to discuss would be - can you feel bad/remorseful about something even though it was the right/moral thing to do? I think yes.

Remember this is just one point of view, yours may differ but it doesn’t mean either of us are moral(see what i did there )

[kamui]

we have perfectly understood your point. and we do not agree.

[quote]
it would be WRONG to not kill the baby and RIGHT to save the greater amount of people.[/quote]
yes.

HENCE the act of killing the baby would not be immoral because you could justify it as the right thing to do.

no.

there is no “Hence” here.
the second sentence doesn’t automatically nor logicaly follow the first.

moral is not about right or wrong. that would be mathematics. or a childish definition of law and justice.

moral is about good or bad.

moral is way more than “the right thing to do”.
it’s, well, doing an actually good thing.

[Sloth]

[quote]kamui wrote:
we have perfectly understood your point. and we do not agree.

it would be WRONG to not kill the baby and RIGHT to save the greater amount of people.[/quote]
yes.

HENCE the act of killing the baby would not be immoral because you could justify it as the right thing to do.

no.

there is no “Hence” here.
the second sentence doesn’t automatically nor logicaly follow the first.

moral is not about right or wrong. that would be mathematics. or a childish definition of law and justice.

moral is about good or bad.

moral is way more than “the right thing to do”.
it’s, well, doing an actually good thing.

This whole question assumes there’s some moral obligation to preserve humanity. As if the universe cared about humanity’s continuing existence.

I do wish my point of view would’ve been incorporated into your guys’ debate. If I’m not going to go out and kill someone ele’s child to preserve the lives of my family, why would I do it for humanity? Surely, if one would deliberately murder an infant for humanity (the vast majority being strangers), you’d do it for yourself, for a wife, or a brother, of even best friend, no?

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…there’s an ongoing research project in Canada that looks at the structure of the brain, in particular the amygdala, to assess whether sociopathy can be linked to deformations of the brain…

…we can agree that there are sociopaths who have no sense of “other”, have no guilt, remorse or empathy for another being? Your idea that murder is wrong is an absolute, because that is how it’s wired in the brain, is hereby refuted…

…an absolute truth is a truth that is equally true for everyone, under all circumstances. Clearly when we change the circumstances, like war for instance, murder is suddenly a good thing. It’s not an absolute. That we cannot survive without breathing air; that’s an absolute, but morality is not…
[/quote]

How somebody feels about something and wrong v. right are two different things. Sociopaths cannot empathize, that’s not the same as not knowing right or wrong, good or evil. You can know something is wrong and not feel it’s wrong.
[/quote]

…why is it that children need to be taught right from wrong?
[/quote]
Same reason they need to be taught all sorts of things. That has nothing to do with moral relativism. Even if you think right is wrong and wrong is right, that doesn’t make it so.[/quote]

…see pat, eventhough i don’t think right is wrong and wrong is right, all we have to determin whether right is right and wrong is wrong is our feelings. Now we can argue if those feelings are innate or socially influenced, and i think it’s a bit of both, but how we came to agree on a specific set of morals is through trial and error and those pesky feelings…
[/quote]

When I was younger and someone would make fun of me and push a button that they didn’t know they were pushing and I saw red, and wanted to hall off and knock their block off. My feelings said it was right and I would go and knock 'em down. Now, other folks around me knew it was not, but my feelings said it was. Feelings are not a very good indicator of morality.[/quote]

…wait, why is it immoral for you to go off on bullies, but when a country is “bullied” war is the moral thing to do? [/quote]

I wouldn’t consider that bullied. And, just war my man:

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, are you taking the position that immoral acts should never be committed, even when they accomplish a far greater good?

In your example, would god punish you for killing a 90 year old to save the life of every other person on the planet? Or would god expect you to let everyone die? [/quote]

Now you brought in a different factor. If I was being threatened with consequences of death myself, then there is an element of coercion. The situation changes, so if I would die if I didn’t kill the 90 year old and so would the rest of the world, it would be extraordinary act of courage to let myself be killed in order to not take the life of the 90 year old, but it would not be immoral to defend my life.

However, the fact remains is the moral act in the situation is to kill those who are threatening both the life of the 90 year old and the 6 billion people.

However, I might be confused on something. Sloth can you help me on this situation that has presented itself.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
Out of curiosity - Do any of the religious people in this forum, have a different religion to their parents?[/quote]

Yes.[/quote]
LOL!!! Oh yes indeed.

[Cortes]

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
presumably, hot wife[/quote]

Don’t presume, I can tell you straight up, she’s pretty damn hot.[/quote]

Heheh. Thanks Mak. I’ll let you guys judge for yourselves.

[Fletch1986]

I started out ‘Christian’. Anyway, I went to church and thought there was a God that was judging me. Then by late elementary, I decided that there wasn’t a God. In 9nth grade of HS, I was a born again Christian. At the time, I accepted Jesus as my savior for all sins I committed and let the holy spirit enter my heart and all that jazz because I genuinely and really believed in it. I really got into it too, started going to church regularly when my family didn’t, did missions, went on the different bible retreats offered by my church and I studied the bible and read books by C.S. Lewis and a few other authors, started praying regularly. Believed that until my mid-sophomore year of college which is about the same time I started really questioning fundamental beliefs of mine and reading about the subject. And now, I’m still atheist.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
presumably, hot wife[/quote]

Don’t presume, I can tell you straight up, she’s pretty damn hot.[/quote]

Heheh. Thanks Mak. I’ll let you guys judge for yourselves.

[/quote]

She’s a cutie.

[Cortes]

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

1. morals seem to be a inert feeling of what is right and wrong.

[/quote]

I lol it.

You just can’t make this stuff up.

[Fletch1986]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
presumably, hot wife[/quote]

Don’t presume, I can tell you straight up, she’s pretty damn hot.[/quote]

Heheh. Thanks Mak. I’ll let you guys judge for yourselves.

[/quote]

Right on! I hope I’m as lucky as you.

[krsoneeeee]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

1. morals seem to be a inert feeling of what is right and wrong.

[/quote]

I lol it.

You just can’t make this stuff up.

[/quote]

…did you not understand?

…you must have a big dick bro because there is no way you could pull her with your personality 6.5/10

[Cortes]

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

1. morals seem to be a inert feeling of what is right and wrong.

[/quote]

I lol it.

You just can’t make this stuff up.

[/quote]

…did you not understand?
[/quote]

Oh, I understood perfectly, as does everyone else here. Your own understanding, however, appears to be “inert,” lol.

[quote]

…you must have a big dick bro because there is no way you could pull her with your personality 6.5/10[/quote]

This is not RMP. But I think you’d feel more comfortable in that forum. The discussions are more suited to your intellectual level.

[krsoneeeee]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

1. morals seem to be a inert feeling of what is right and wrong.

[/quote]

I lol it.

You just can’t make this stuff up.

[/quote]

…did you not understand?
[/quote]

Oh, I understood perfectly, as does everyone else here. Your own understanding, however, appears to be “inert,” lol.

…you must have a big dick bro because there is no way you could pull her with your personality 6.5/10[/quote]

This is not RMP. But I think you’d feel more comfortable in that forum. The discussions are more suited to your intellectual level.

substitute “inert” for “underlying” and repost. feel better?

[krsoneeeee]

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I started out ‘Christian’. Anyway, I went to church and thought there was a God that was judging me. Then by late elementary, I decided that there wasn’t a God. In 9nth grade of HS, I was a born again Christian. At the time, I accepted Jesus as my savior for all sins I committed and let the holy spirit enter my heart and all that jazz because I genuinely and really believed in it. I really got into it too, started going to church regularly when my family didn’t, did missions, went on the different bible retreats offered by my church and I studied the bible and read books by C.S. Lewis and a few other authors, started praying regularly. Believed that until my mid-sophomore year of college which is about the same time I started really questioning fundamental beliefs of mine and reading about the subject. And now, I’m still atheist. [/quote]

I think someone like yourself is the only person who can truly comment on this subject - having been on both sides of the story. What made you turn back to atheism?

I was watching a science show the other day - Out of curiosity - what does the bible say about other intelligent life forms?

Also, does the bible not say Humans were here from the start of “time”? Are dinosaurs mentioned in the bible, and if so why are there no human records as old as dinosaurs.

[ephrem]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…wait, why is it immoral for you to go off on bullies, but when a country is “bullied” war is the moral thing to do? [/quote]

I wouldn’t consider that bullied. And, just war my man:

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
  [/quote]

…individuals wage war on others too by bullying, and you’d be justified to retaliate, imo…

[ephrem]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
presumably, hot wife[/quote]

Don’t presume, I can tell you straight up, she’s pretty damn hot.[/quote]

Heheh. Thanks Mak. I’ll let you guys judge for yourselves.

[/quote]

…you’re a lucky, lucky man Cortes…