And I would happily die if it was to protect someone I love and care about (even though I think that would be it for “me”).
I had an interesting dream the other night that I thought I would share. In my dream, people were slowly disappearing from the world. I discovered that people discovered a giant sink hole type object in the ocean and thought it was something from God. They would jump in the water and happily swim out to be engulfed by it. Slowly, everyone did this until I watched the last few people around me go in (they were all smiling). I couldn’t believe they would so happily end their lives (or at least take the gamble if it didn’t go anywhere). I realized then that I was all alone, and there was no reason to be around in the world if I was the only one left. Then I swam out in to the sink hole to meet my end, but was terrified.
I now realize the sink hole represented death. The religious people embrace the idea of the death (at least in my dream). I’m terrified of it because I see it as the end and destruction of myself. Even if I would live forever, without those around me, life isn’t worth living.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I think atheists can be very moral. Your religious preferences don’t determine how moral of a person you are although if you consider yourself religious then it should. I don’t know of any religion that preaches immorality, but I’m sure there are a few.
The question of morals in atheists though raises another question. Where do atheists get their morals? Christians, Muslims, etc. say their morals come from God therefore there is a a clear cut right and wrong. An atheist who says there is no God and people are just the process of evolution is left to decide if there is a right or wrong. If so, then where does it come from?
I would never vote for a person based on their religious beliefs. Afterall, I would bet the majority of the “Christian” leaders of the nation are just nominally Christian. [/quote]
I’ll answer this one. My morals come from my own experiences and the experiences of interacting and observing those around me. If I see that something causes suffering to another, I will see this and note that this is an incorrect action.
And yes, I do think Atheists can be very moral people. I do a lot of things I consider good: trying to become vegetarian, volunteer at old peoples homes, try to give advice and help when asked, help animals that are injured, put worms in the grass (ones on pavement) after a rain storm, etc.[/quote]
That’s very interesting on where your morals come from. I believe that most people would say the same. Let me ask you this; if there is no God you would have to concede that there is no universal right or wrong though would you not? I mean what’s right for you may be wrong for me. If we are just a chance happening of carbon based compounds that form life then we are no different than any other animal except that we have thought. So what causes us to think that one thing is right and another wrong?
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Let me ask you this; if there is no God you would have to concede that there is no universal right or wrong though would you not? I mean what’s right for you may be wrong for me. If we are just a chance happening of carbon based compounds that form life then we are no different than any other animal except that we have thought. So what causes us to think that one thing is right and another wrong? [/quote]
Read Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics if you want to see a very old, very well thought out argument for ethics and morals absent a God or gods.
That’s really a straw-man, and there’s a laundry list of ways to attack it without falling into moral relativism.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I think atheists can be very moral. Your religious preferences don’t determine how moral of a person you are although if you consider yourself religious then it should. I don’t know of any religion that preaches immorality, but I’m sure there are a few.
The question of morals in atheists though raises another question. Where do atheists get their morals? Christians, Muslims, etc. say their morals come from God therefore there is a a clear cut right and wrong. An atheist who says there is no God and people are just the process of evolution is left to decide if there is a right or wrong. If so, then where does it come from?
I would never vote for a person based on their religious beliefs. Afterall, I would bet the majority of the “Christian” leaders of the nation are just nominally Christian. [/quote]
I’ll answer this one. My morals come from my own experiences and the experiences of interacting and observing those around me. If I see that something causes suffering to another, I will see this and note that this is an incorrect action.
And yes, I do think Atheists can be very moral people. I do a lot of things I consider good: trying to become vegetarian, volunteer at old peoples homes, try to give advice and help when asked, help animals that are injured, put worms in the grass (ones on pavement) after a rain storm, etc.[/quote]
That’s very interesting on where your morals come from. I believe that most people would say the same. Let me ask you this; if there is no God you would have to concede that there is no universal right or wrong though would you not? I mean what’s right for you may be wrong for me. If we are just a chance happening of carbon based compounds that form life then we are no different than any other animal except that we have thought. So what causes us to think that one thing is right and another wrong? [/quote]
We are social beings. We can relate to those around us. Let me ask you this: If you saw someone molesting a woman or child, would you stop them? I don’t believe people need a God to do good in the world. We all want to protect those around us from suffering.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I think atheists can be very moral. Your religious preferences don’t determine how moral of a person you are although if you consider yourself religious then it should. I don’t know of any religion that preaches immorality, but I’m sure there are a few.
The question of morals in atheists though raises another question. Where do atheists get their morals? Christians, Muslims, etc. say their morals come from God therefore there is a a clear cut right and wrong. An atheist who says there is no God and people are just the process of evolution is left to decide if there is a right or wrong. If so, then where does it come from?
I would never vote for a person based on their religious beliefs. Afterall, I would bet the majority of the “Christian” leaders of the nation are just nominally Christian. [/quote]
I think you are right, but I think it is somewhat empty with out the Muse. St. Paul did say that all people are ingrained with some innate sense of morality.
As evidenced by human behavior, having a belief system is not necessary directly correlated with moral behavior.
What I am saying next is strictly opinion, based on my own observation and I cannot back it up.
I personally believe that the best of the best of theists are more moral than the best of the best atheists. And I believe that the worst of atheists are capable of greater evil than similar theist.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And I would happily die if it was to protect someone I love and care about (even though I think that would be it for “me”).[/quote]
I don’t think you are a strict atheist. You are definitely curious about theism. And further, I think you are overall a good guy. You ask good questions and they are questions everyone should ask themselves. It is important to understand why you believe what you believe. If it’s simply because your parents did it, your faith ain’t worth a shit.
What you said is the purest of Christian notions. “No greater love does a one have than to lay down his life for his friends.” Christianity as it is supposed to be lived can be summed up in that one statement.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I think atheists can be very moral. Your religious preferences don’t determine how moral of a person you are although if you consider yourself religious then it should. I don’t know of any religion that preaches immorality, but I’m sure there are a few.
The question of morals in atheists though raises another question. Where do atheists get their morals? Christians, Muslims, etc. say their morals come from God therefore there is a a clear cut right and wrong. An atheist who says there is no God and people are just the process of evolution is left to decide if there is a right or wrong. If so, then where does it come from?
I would never vote for a person based on their religious beliefs. Afterall, I would bet the majority of the “Christian” leaders of the nation are just nominally Christian. [/quote]
I’ll answer this one. My morals come from my own experiences and the experiences of interacting and observing those around me. If I see that something causes suffering to another, I will see this and note that this is an incorrect action.
And yes, I do think Atheists can be very moral people. I do a lot of things I consider good: trying to become vegetarian, volunteer at old peoples homes, try to give advice and help when asked, help animals that are injured, put worms in the grass (ones on pavement) after a rain storm, etc.[/quote]
That’s very interesting on where your morals come from. I believe that most people would say the same. Let me ask you this; if there is no God you would have to concede that there is no universal right or wrong though would you not? I mean what’s right for you may be wrong for me. If we are just a chance happening of carbon based compounds that form life then we are no different than any other animal except that we have thought. So what causes us to think that one thing is right and another wrong? [/quote]
We are social beings. We can relate to those around us. Let me ask you this: If you saw someone molesting a woman or child, would you stop them? I don’t believe people need a God to do good in the world. We all want to protect those around us from suffering.[/quote]
Some do some don’t. The problem is that the idea of good and bad has to come from somewhere. Otherwise it’s just all relative. It’s hard enough to imagine that life came from non-living elements without believing that non-living material also gave birth to ingrained ideas of what is right and what is wrong.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
The problem is that the idea of good and bad has to come from somewhere. Otherwise it’s just all relative.[/quote]
As I and others have explained, certain personality traits that favor a strong group/society/community get passed on by our DNA.
I can argue that religion makes ideas of right and wrong relative. To a Muslim who strictly follows the Koran, killing an infidel, defined as anyone who is not Muslim, is perfectly acceptable. And no, I’m not being a bigot - it says this in the Koran, or words to that affect. So, ideas of right and wrong are relative based on your particular religion. Sure, we can argue about which religion is the true religion, but ALL religions claim to be the one, true religion. So, which one should I believe?
I agree that the idea that humans evolved from non-living elements is hard to imagine. The universe is hard to imagine. But just because something is hard to understand doesn’t prove the existence of a god. This idea of “it’s hard to understand” is the basis of just about all religions. That combined with the fact that we want to think that we’re special creatures watched over by a benevolent being, and we want there to be a universal moral code. Well guess what - I too want these things. But we don’t always get what we want, and I refuse to go running to the nonsense of religion just so I can feel special and loved.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
The problem is that the idea of good and bad has to come from somewhere. Otherwise it’s just all relative.[/quote]
As I and others have explained, certain personality traits that favor a strong group/society/community get passed on by our DNA.
I can argue that religion makes ideas of right and wrong relative. To a Muslim who strictly follows the Koran, killing an infidel, defined as anyone who is not Muslim, is perfectly acceptable. And no, I’m not being a bigot - it says this in the Koran, or words to that affect. So, ideas of right and wrong are relative based on your particular religion. Sure, we can argue about which religion is the true religion, but ALL religions claim to be the one, true religion. So, which one should I believe?
I agree that the idea that humans evolved from non-living elements is hard to imagine. The universe is hard to imagine. But just because something is hard to understand doesn’t prove the existence of a god. This idea of “it’s hard to understand” is the basis of just about all religions. That combined with the fact that we want to think that we’re special creatures watched over by a benevolent being, and we want there to be a universal moral code. Well guess what - I too want these things. But we don’t always get what we want, and I refuse to go running to the nonsense of religion just so I can feel special and loved.
[/quote]
Right and wrong based on DNA? Do you really believe that?
Morality is not relative. Right and wrong, good and evil are just that, despite circumstances or society.
I’ll give you an extreme example, is raping a child ever, ever, right or good, whether or not the society accepts it?
In your second paragraph you are still arguing the God of gaps, that’s not the argument. Just because it cannot be explained does not beget a “God did it” filler. We are not cavemen and simple logic forbids such a thing.
The argument for the existence of God is logic based. It’s not much different than what Einstein did. He discovered, (or was the one who managed to prove) the existence of black holes with no empirical proof. He used logic and math to prove it. It was much later that we could collect enough empirical data to verify.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I think atheists can be very moral. Your religious preferences don’t determine how moral of a person you are although if you consider yourself religious then it should. I don’t know of any religion that preaches immorality, but I’m sure there are a few.
The question of morals in atheists though raises another question. Where do atheists get their morals? Christians, Muslims, etc. say their morals come from God therefore there is a a clear cut right and wrong. An atheist who says there is no God and people are just the process of evolution is left to decide if there is a right or wrong. If so, then where does it come from?
I would never vote for a person based on their religious beliefs. Afterall, I would bet the majority of the “Christian” leaders of the nation are just nominally Christian. [/quote]
I’ll answer this one. My morals come from my own experiences and the experiences of interacting and observing those around me. If I see that something causes suffering to another, I will see this and note that this is an incorrect action.
And yes, I do think Atheists can be very moral people. I do a lot of things I consider good: trying to become vegetarian, volunteer at old peoples homes, try to give advice and help when asked, help animals that are injured, put worms in the grass (ones on pavement) after a rain storm, etc.[/quote]
That’s very interesting on where your morals come from. I believe that most people would say the same. Let me ask you this; if there is no God you would have to concede that there is no universal right or wrong though would you not? I mean what’s right for you may be wrong for me. If we are just a chance happening of carbon based compounds that form life then we are no different than any other animal except that we have thought. So what causes us to think that one thing is right and another wrong? [/quote]
We are social beings. We can relate to those around us. Let me ask you this: If you saw someone molesting a woman or child, would you stop them? I don’t believe people need a God to do good in the world. We all want to protect those around us from suffering.[/quote]
Ok, but why?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
And I would happily die if it was to protect someone I love and care about (even though I think that would be it for “me”).[/quote]
I don’t think you are a strict atheist. You are definitely curious about theism. And further, I think you are overall a good guy. You ask good questions and they are questions everyone should ask themselves. It is important to understand why you believe what you believe. If it’s simply because your parents did it, your faith ain’t worth a shit.
What you said is the purest of Christian notions. “No greater love does a one have than to lay down his life for his friends.” Christianity as it is supposed to be lived can be summed up in that one statement. [/quote]
Thank you for the kind words, pat! I think you’re a good guy too and open minded about the various questions I ask. Thank you for that. Honestly, I’m very interested in theism and atheism alike as I think everyone needs to find the truth for themselves as much as possible. Like you said, faith ain’t worth anything unless you understand why you believe. I still haven’t found anything close to the answer, but instead am just discovering more and more questions. Thanks again for the kind words.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I think atheists can be very moral. Your religious preferences don’t determine how moral of a person you are although if you consider yourself religious then it should. I don’t know of any religion that preaches immorality, but I’m sure there are a few.
The question of morals in atheists though raises another question. Where do atheists get their morals? Christians, Muslims, etc. say their morals come from God therefore there is a a clear cut right and wrong. An atheist who says there is no God and people are just the process of evolution is left to decide if there is a right or wrong. If so, then where does it come from?
I would never vote for a person based on their religious beliefs. Afterall, I would bet the majority of the “Christian” leaders of the nation are just nominally Christian. [/quote]
I’ll answer this one. My morals come from my own experiences and the experiences of interacting and observing those around me. If I see that something causes suffering to another, I will see this and note that this is an incorrect action.
And yes, I do think Atheists can be very moral people. I do a lot of things I consider good: trying to become vegetarian, volunteer at old peoples homes, try to give advice and help when asked, help animals that are injured, put worms in the grass (ones on pavement) after a rain storm, etc.[/quote]
That’s very interesting on where your morals come from. I believe that most people would say the same. Let me ask you this; if there is no God you would have to concede that there is no universal right or wrong though would you not? I mean what’s right for you may be wrong for me. If we are just a chance happening of carbon based compounds that form life then we are no different than any other animal except that we have thought. So what causes us to think that one thing is right and another wrong? [/quote]
We are social beings. We can relate to those around us. Let me ask you this: If you saw someone molesting a woman or child, would you stop them? I don’t believe people need a God to do good in the world. We all want to protect those around us from suffering.[/quote]
Ok, but why?[/quote]
Perhaps it’s programmed into us. Perhaps we can relate to the suffering of others. I really don’t know.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
The problem is that the idea of good and bad has to come from somewhere. Otherwise it’s just all relative.[/quote]
As I and others have explained, certain personality traits that favor a strong group/society/community get passed on by our DNA.
I can argue that religion makes ideas of right and wrong relative. To a Muslim who strictly follows the Koran, killing an infidel, defined as anyone who is not Muslim, is perfectly acceptable. And no, I’m not being a bigot - it says this in the Koran, or words to that affect. So, ideas of right and wrong are relative based on your particular religion. Sure, we can argue about which religion is the true religion, but ALL religions claim to be the one, true religion. So, which one should I believe?
I agree that the idea that humans evolved from non-living elements is hard to imagine. The universe is hard to imagine. But just because something is hard to understand doesn’t prove the existence of a god. This idea of “it’s hard to understand” is the basis of just about all religions. That combined with the fact that we want to think that we’re special creatures watched over by a benevolent being, and we want there to be a universal moral code. Well guess what - I too want these things. But we don’t always get what we want, and I refuse to go running to the nonsense of religion just so I can feel special and loved.
[/quote]
So your claim is that no only do physical traits evolve (which I concede in micro-evolution) but that spiritual traits evolve as well. That would point towards some sort of spiritual being inside of us then. Where does that come from? There is nothing in our DNA that is anything but physical. And still that would leave morals subjective. It’s only dependent on what we perceive as right or wrong. Yet usually you don’t have to tell someone it’s terrible to hurt another living thing. Where could the information of morals be stored?
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I think atheists can be very moral. Your religious preferences don’t determine how moral of a person you are although if you consider yourself religious then it should. I don’t know of any religion that preaches immorality, but I’m sure there are a few.
The question of morals in atheists though raises another question. Where do atheists get their morals? Christians, Muslims, etc. say their morals come from God therefore there is a a clear cut right and wrong. An atheist who says there is no God and people are just the process of evolution is left to decide if there is a right or wrong. If so, then where does it come from?
I would never vote for a person based on their religious beliefs. Afterall, I would bet the majority of the “Christian” leaders of the nation are just nominally Christian. [/quote]
I’ll answer this one. My morals come from my own experiences and the experiences of interacting and observing those around me. If I see that something causes suffering to another, I will see this and note that this is an incorrect action.
And yes, I do think Atheists can be very moral people. I do a lot of things I consider good: trying to become vegetarian, volunteer at old peoples homes, try to give advice and help when asked, help animals that are injured, put worms in the grass (ones on pavement) after a rain storm, etc.[/quote]
That’s very interesting on where your morals come from. I believe that most people would say the same. Let me ask you this; if there is no God you would have to concede that there is no universal right or wrong though would you not? I mean what’s right for you may be wrong for me. If we are just a chance happening of carbon based compounds that form life then we are no different than any other animal except that we have thought. So what causes us to think that one thing is right and another wrong? [/quote]
We are social beings. We can relate to those around us. Let me ask you this: If you saw someone molesting a woman or child, would you stop them? I don’t believe people need a God to do good in the world. We all want to protect those around us from suffering.[/quote]
Ok, but why?[/quote]
Perhaps it’s programmed into us. Perhaps we can relate to the suffering of others. I really don’t know.[/quote]
But at least you are questioning. That is the first step in the right direction
Great video.
I am an Atheist I guess. Kinda. More of a nontheist really.
That must seem strange from a guy user name and avatar are “devils”. lol Long story.
But anyway I don’t push it off on anyone or bother to argue about, because to this very day no one can produce an ounce of actual tangible scientifically measured proof of either the existence or non existence of god. So what are we even talking about? Why should this be a matter of contention between people?
Why waste time worrying about what other people do or don’t believe? Personally I have better things to think about.
[quote]Mr. Frost wrote:
Great video.
I am an Atheist I guess. Kinda. More of a nontheist really.
That must seem strange from a guy user name and avatar are “devils”. lol Long story.
But anyway I don’t push it off on anyone or bother to argue about, because to this very day no one can produce an ounce of actual tangible scientifically measured proof of either the existence or non existence of god. So what are we even talking about? Why should this be a matter of contention between people?
Why waste time worrying about what other people do or don’t believe? Personally I have better things to think about.[/quote]
That’s a good outlook on it. I don’t try to convert anyone to Christianity just like I wouldn’t want someone just coming up to me and telling me that God is a lie or something. At the same time, if you are a Christian, you are called to be a witness to your beliefs. This is totally different though than grabbing someone by the shirt and saying “Brother, are you saved?!?”
1 Peter 3:15 says we should offer answers “but do this with gentleness and respect.” Honestly, I see more than ever that Christians are just sitting back and acting as if the Gospel were some sort of secret message they had received to get to heaven. Then they want to write off everyone that is a non-believer as evil. I was lucky enough to grow up going to church and still went through several years of non belief. Others aren’t even given that opportunity.
P.S. What part of TN you from? I used to live in Chattanooga.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]Mr. Frost wrote:
Great video.
I am an Atheist I guess. Kinda. More of a nontheist really.
That must seem strange from a guy user name and avatar are “devils”. lol Long story.
But anyway I don’t push it off on anyone or bother to argue about, because to this very day no one can produce an ounce of actual tangible scientifically measured proof of either the existence or non existence of god. So what are we even talking about? Why should this be a matter of contention between people?
Why waste time worrying about what other people do or don’t believe? Personally I have better things to think about.[/quote]
That’s a good outlook on it. I don’t try to convert anyone to Christianity just like I wouldn’t want someone just coming up to me and telling me that God is a lie or something. At the same time, if you are a Christian, you are called to be a witness to your beliefs. This is totally different though than grabbing someone by the shirt and saying “Brother, are you saved?!?”
1 Peter 3:15 says we should offer answers “but do this with gentleness and respect.” Honestly, I see more than ever that Christians are just sitting back and acting as if the Gospel were some sort of secret message they had received to get to heaven. Then they want to write off everyone that is a non-believer as evil. I was lucky enough to grow up going to church and still went through several years of non belief. Others aren’t even given that opportunity.
P.S. What part of TN you from? I used to live in Chattanooga.
[/quote]
I am originally from Nashville, but I live in nearby Franklin now. Cool.
I loooove Chatanooga. The Ocoeee? Oh snap. I love caving and hiking and rafting. Chattanooga = fun.
Anyway I gotta say that I just CAN’T BELIEVE all the nonsense that goes on. What’s wrong with nativity scenes? And saying Merry Christmas? Hell’s bells I say “Merry Christmas” every single year just BECAUSE there are anal retentive douche bags out there that say I shouldn’t. LOL
I have no problem with religion as long as it’s peaceful. What’s the harm? One road to ethics and contientious behavior is as good as another. Sure I don’t beleive what Christians believe, but that doesn’t mean that I am offended by it. As long as they aren’t hurting anyone it’s all good.
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”
Seneca
[quote]Mr. Frost wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]Mr. Frost wrote:
Great video.
I am an Atheist I guess. Kinda. More of a nontheist really.
That must seem strange from a guy user name and avatar are “devils”. lol Long story.
But anyway I don’t push it off on anyone or bother to argue about, because to this very day no one can produce an ounce of actual tangible scientifically measured proof of either the existence or non existence of god. So what are we even talking about? Why should this be a matter of contention between people?
Why waste time worrying about what other people do or don’t believe? Personally I have better things to think about.[/quote]
That’s a good outlook on it. I don’t try to convert anyone to Christianity just like I wouldn’t want someone just coming up to me and telling me that God is a lie or something. At the same time, if you are a Christian, you are called to be a witness to your beliefs. This is totally different though than grabbing someone by the shirt and saying “Brother, are you saved?!?”
1 Peter 3:15 says we should offer answers “but do this with gentleness and respect.” Honestly, I see more than ever that Christians are just sitting back and acting as if the Gospel were some sort of secret message they had received to get to heaven. Then they want to write off everyone that is a non-believer as evil. I was lucky enough to grow up going to church and still went through several years of non belief. Others aren’t even given that opportunity.
P.S. What part of TN you from? I used to live in Chattanooga.
[/quote]
I am originally from Nashville, but I live in nearby Franklin now. Cool.
I loooove Chatanooga. The Ocoeee? Oh snap. I love caving and hiking and rafting. Chattanooga = fun.
Anyway I gotta say that I just CAN’T BELIEVE all the nonsense that goes on. What’s wrong with nativity scenes? And saying Merry Christmas? Hell’s bells I say “Merry Christmas” every single year just BECAUSE there are anal retentive douche bags out there that say I shouldn’t. LOL
I have no problem with religion as long as it’s peaceful. What’s the harm? One road to ethics and contientious behavior is as good as another. Sure I don’t beleive what Christians believe, but that doesn’t mean that I am offended by it. As long as they aren’t hurting anyone it’s all good.
[/quote]
Nashville is also a cool place. I went to college at MTSU. See, why can’t all believers and non believers get along?
I was actually told by the school district I work for that we can’t even say Happy Halloween or use Halloween decorations because some consider it a religious holiday! We can put up “fall” decorations but no pumpkins or witches or skeletons, etc. I mean I wouldn’t take offense if someone walked up to me and said “Happy Mother Goddess Day.” You either celebrate it or you don’t.