Atheism-o-Phobia Part 3

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]kamui wrote:
i was speaking about action.

even the smallest of our actions have endless ramifications and endless consequences.
more than we can feel, think and tell.

i can feel myself breathing
i can tell “i breath”
i can think about breathing

but the feeling of a breath is not a breath
the word “breath” is not a breath
the idea of breathing is not a breath

yet i do breath.

obviously, it’s rather non-descript, precisely because we can’t descript an affect.
[/quote]

Good boy! Understanding that breathing and the feeling of breathing are two different things. Like a the object of a thought is different from a thought. A thought is the container for the object of the thought.

122

[quote]kamui wrote:
this whole story about quantum physics and subjectivity lies on a misunderstanding.

matter is NOT changed because we observe it. not even at a quantum scale.
matter is changed because we have to change it in some way (using tons of energy to accelerate it or break it, colliding it in LHC, etc) in order to observe it in some other way.

[/quote]

Well cannot tell can you? You cannot quantify an unobserved events…Gotta run…

123

the fact that we can’t quantify it doesn’t allow us to conclude it has no quantity.
nor that its quantity is ontologically (really) indetermined

124

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

We may have gained understanding of eachother in light of our discussions, but neither of us has come over to the other side [as if it’s truth] just one little bit. If anything, our discussions merely enforced the opinion we already had.

It really doesn’t matter what you say T, because this isn’t about god or God. I’m perfectly fine with having a personal relationship with [a] god if he chooses to reveal himself to me, but it’s the believers i have a problem with.

I don’t want to be a part of the same religion ZEB is part of. Or Sloth’s and Chris’ religion. I don’t want to be part of your religion either. It’s any kind of religion i have a problem with; not god. Why can’t you see that?
[/quote]

Given the way religious people behave sometimes, I can’t blame you.
I am postulating several theories lately about behaviour and religious or non-religious belief.

Do you want God to reveal himself to you?[/quote]

Maybe he already has. As ZEB said, he’s supposed to work in mysterious ways, isn’t he?

The idea of a god is not incompatable with my worldview/philosophy. From my POV, reality follows fascination, and as such we’re granted an life-experience that reflects that.

Seen in that light, none of us can really help ourselves to be something other than what we are. Not you, not me, not Tiribulus, not ZEB or even mick28.
[/quote]

God does work in mysterious ways, but if he had, I am pretty sure you’d know it. The question is if he exists do you want him to reveal himself?

In my point of view, fascination follows reality, with out reality, there is no fantasy. All made up stuff is just reassembled reality. If God exists and you wish him to reveal himself and your world view requires that he does not exist, then your world view will have to change. My world view wouldn’t change much if I were proven wrong. But I am not, so I am not worried either way…[/quote]

I’ve always believed that truth is more important than fiction, even if it means a harsher, starker reality than one might wish were the case. If there really were a god, I would want him/her/it to reveal itself to me. If it turned out the god was beneficent, I would gladly worship it. Who wouldn’t want a sense of divine destiny and purpose? Who wouldn’t want the comfort of knowing that you could see your loved ones again after death? I fully understand the appeal of religion. I just can’t believe in it without some kind of reliable evidence that it is actually real. Faith is a fickle wind that blows people every which way. It can’t be trusted, because it is nothing more than a nicely packaged bundle of wishful thinking. If it were anything more than that, it would be knowledge rather than faith.

125

[quote]ephrem wrote:
On the subject of psychology and the assumption of self in regards to religion

As Tirubulus pointed out, religion [Christianity[ has nothing to gain from a deeper understanding of self. Psychology may be a “soft” science, but it does allow one to delve deeper into one’s motivations for acting like they do.

Religion offers an answer that gives the believer an excuse to not engage their mental problems, and substitute those problems with a blanket statement, “I’m a sinner”. It’s laziness, plain and simple.

ZEB’s enduring fascination with homosexuality reveals an underlying issue he’s able to skirt by simply pointing at the bible and say, “It’s a sin”, without ever looking deeper into his own psyche for the real reasons.

I believe this mechanism exists with many believers. I know it’s true for my crazy sister who found the J.W.'s, but still is batshit crazy. Religion offers a different path wherein mental issues are projected onto the fabric of that religion making them somewhat manageable, but without real understanding.

And it does not come as a surprise to me that therapy goes against the gospel. A faith can only exist without questioning that faith.

Seen in this light, i think that religion is an obstacle that blocks greater understanding of the human condition, which in turn hinders humanity’s progress on a whole. Let’s release humankind from the burden of religion so we can move forward as a species.

[/quote]

A good example of this is people who say that religion help them overcome an addiction. But if you pay attention, you realize that religion has become an all-consuming focus in their lives. They merely traded one addiction for another. I suppose you can argue that religious zealotry is better than drug use, and I would also agree with that to some extent. However, as ephrem mentioned, this doesn’t address the deeper issue of such a person’s addictive personality. This is kind of what AA does for alcoholics. It tells alcoholics to surrender to a higher power and then has them do a bunch of busy work to keep the focus away from the booze, but the success rate of AA is no better than the person who stops drinking cold turkey. And yes, in many cases a drug or alcohol user’s addiction is more of a psychological dependence rather than a physical one. I was talking to a group of cops at my gym who said that the dirty little secret behind the “don’t do drugs” message is that not everyone who tries drugs will develop a physical addiction. In many cases it’s a psychological dependence. But because no one knows if their physiology will cause them to develop a physical addiction to a particular substance until they try it, it’s safer to tell everyone to avoid drugs.

126

[quote]kamui wrote:
the fact that we can’t quantify it doesn’t allow us to conclude it has no quantity.
nor that its quantity is ontologically (really) indetermined
[/quote]

No. The punchline of Bell’s theorem is that every quantum theory must necessarily violate either locality or counterfactual definiteness. I don’t care what your vague philosophical notions are regarding quantum mechanics.

127

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seen in this light, i think that religion is an obstacle that blocks greater understanding of the human condition, which in turn hinders humanity’s progress on a whole. Let’s release humankind from the burden of religion so we can move forward as a species.

[/quote]

You’d move backwards. Religion is progress. We build societies. Atheists/secularists spend off the social capital of their more religious forefathers, fail to reproduce, and leave nothing but debt to the few children (inreasingly born to broken homes) being born to replace them. Don’t worry though, you’re being outbred (especially by the more devout), and children are far more likely to practice the faith of their fathers, so we’ll fix the west’s modern ailments eventually.[/quote]

Scientific progress was made inspite of religion. You can’t deny the black hole of progress that were the medevil dark ages?

Religion, by definition, thrives on stagnation. It may have had it’s use, but it’s time to move on. Thank you very much religion, but it’s time to be relegated to the pages of history!

128

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Maybe he already has. As ZEB said, he’s supposed to work in mysterious ways, isn’t he?

The idea of a god is not incompatable with my worldview/philosophy. From my POV, reality follows fascination, and as such we’re granted an life-experience that reflects that.

Seen in that light, none of us can really help ourselves to be something other than what we are. Not you, not me, not Tiribulus, not ZEB or even mick28.
[/quote]

God does work in mysterious ways, but if he had, I am pretty sure you’d know it. The question is if he exists do you want him to reveal himself?

In my point of view, fascination follows reality, with out reality, there is no fantasy. All made up stuff is just reassembled reality. If God exists and you wish him to reveal himself and your world view requires that he does not exist, then your world view will have to change. My world view wouldn’t change much if I were proven wrong. But I am not, so I am not worried either way…[/quote]

If i start to believe he exists, and if i make a real effort by praying, going to church and reading the bible, i’m prepping myself for religious experiences. Not only do i project an eagerness outward, but i’m also allowing anything that might be indicative of a sign to have meaning.

By doing this, i’m shaping my reality to reflect my beliefs.

To answer your question: i’d have a hard time, an impossible time tbh, to “stoop” to the conditions religion/christianity put in place before he’d reveal himself.

Suppose he reveals himself to me during a meditative state? Suppose he also reveals to me truths that oppose your doctrine? I guess we’d have a different kind of discussion, but would that matter to you?

Is any god good enough?

129

[quote]kamui wrote:
this whole story about quantum physics and subjectivity lies on a misunderstanding.

matter is NOT changed because we observe it. not even at a quantum scale.
matter is changed because we have to change it in some way (using tons of energy to accelerate it or break it, colliding it in LHC, etc) in order to observe it in some other way.

[/quote]

Matter, in this case, is a misnomer. There’s energy that can either be a wave or a particle.

130

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seen in this light, i think that religion is an obstacle that blocks greater understanding of the human condition, which in turn hinders humanity’s progress on a whole. Let’s release humankind from the burden of religion so we can move forward as a species.

[/quote]

You’d move backwards. Religion is progress. We build societies. Atheists/secularists spend off the social capital of their more religious forefathers, fail to reproduce, and leave nothing but debt to the few children (inreasingly born to broken homes) being born to replace them. Don’t worry though, you’re being outbred (especially by the more devout), and children are far more likely to practice the faith of their fathers, so we’ll fix the west’s modern ailments eventually.[/quote]

Scientific progress was made inspite of religion. You can’t deny the black hole of progress that were the medevil dark ages?

Religion, by definition, thrives on stagnation. It may have had it’s use, but it’s time to move on. Thank you very much religion, but it’s time to be relegated to the pages of history!
[/quote]

That’s partly because the Christian scholars in those times were monks, who lived in isolation and remained celibate. They therefore did not pass on their genes or widely disseminate their knowledge.

131

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seen in this light, i think that religion is an obstacle that blocks greater understanding of the human condition, which in turn hinders humanity’s progress on a whole. Let’s release humankind from the burden of religion so we can move forward as a species.

[/quote]

You’d move backwards. Religion is progress. We build societies. Atheists/secularists spend off the social capital of their more religious forefathers, fail to reproduce, and leave nothing but debt to the few children (inreasingly born to broken homes) being born to replace them. Don’t worry though, you’re being outbred (especially by the more devout), and children are far more likely to practice the faith of their fathers, so we’ll fix the west’s modern ailments eventually.[/quote]

Scientific progress was made inspite of religion. You can’t deny the black hole of progress that were the medevil dark ages?

Religion, by definition, thrives on stagnation. It may have had it’s use, but it’s time to move on. Thank you very much religion, but it’s time to be relegated to the pages of history!
[/quote]

That’s partly because the Christian scholars in those times were monks, who lived in isolation and remained celibate. They therefore did not pass on their genes or widely disseminate their knowledge.[/quote]

Do you have examples of scientific progress from that era that remained secret until much, much later?

132

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seen in this light, i think that religion is an obstacle that blocks greater understanding of the human condition, which in turn hinders humanity’s progress on a whole. Let’s release humankind from the burden of religion so we can move forward as a species.

[/quote]

You’d move backwards. Religion is progress. We build societies. Atheists/secularists spend off the social capital of their more religious forefathers, fail to reproduce, and leave nothing but debt to the few children (inreasingly born to broken homes) being born to replace them. Don’t worry though, you’re being outbred (especially by the more devout), and children are far more likely to practice the faith of their fathers, so we’ll fix the west’s modern ailments eventually.[/quote]

Scientific progress was made inspite of religion. You can’t deny the black hole of progress that were the medevil dark ages?

Religion, by definition, thrives on stagnation. It may have had it’s use, but it’s time to move on. Thank you very much religion, but it’s time to be relegated to the pages of history!
[/quote]

Nope. Scientific progress would be stuck at making fire without the ordering and civilizing nature of religion. And, you can’t relegate religion to history as it can and will outlast modern atheism and anything-goes-spiritualism. “Go forth and multiply.”

133

ephrem, do you think it’s hilarious that Sloth imagines a world dominated by Christians breeding like rabbits? What happens when the Earth has been ravaged by overpopulation, what will the devout say then? Perhaps religion will have solved the world’s problems by then, and there will be no famine or poverty.

134

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Seen in this light, i think that religion is an obstacle that blocks greater understanding of the human condition, which in turn hinders humanity’s progress on a whole. Let’s release humankind from the burden of religion so we can move forward as a species.

[/quote]

You’d move backwards. Religion is progress. We build societies. Atheists/secularists spend off the social capital of their more religious forefathers, fail to reproduce, and leave nothing but debt to the few children (inreasingly born to broken homes) being born to replace them. Don’t worry though, you’re being outbred (especially by the more devout), and children are far more likely to practice the faith of their fathers, so we’ll fix the west’s modern ailments eventually.[/quote]

Scientific progress was made inspite of religion. You can’t deny the black hole of progress that were the medevil dark ages?

Religion, by definition, thrives on stagnation. It may have had it’s use, but it’s time to move on. Thank you very much religion, but it’s time to be relegated to the pages of history!
[/quote]

Nope. Scientific progress would be stuck at making fire without the ordering and civilizing nature of religion. And, you can’t relegate religion to history as it can and will outlast modern atheism and anything-goes-spiritualism. “Go forth and multiply.” [/quote]

Bullshit wishful thinking Sloth. As scientific progress pushes on the case for god grows weaker, and weaker, and weaker.

135

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
ephrem, do you think it’s hilarious that Sloth imagines a world dominated by Christians breeding like rabbits? What happens when the Earth has been ravaged by overpopulation, what will the devout say then? Perhaps religion will have solved the world’s problems by then, and there will be no famine or poverty.[/quote]

Oh no, not the overpopulation thing again! Yes, let’s all shoot for below replacemnt level fertility rates.

136

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
ephrem, do you think it’s hilarious that Sloth imagines a world dominated by Christians breeding like rabbits? What happens when the Earth has been ravaged by overpopulation, what will the devout say then? Perhaps religion will have solved the world’s problems by then, and there will be no famine or poverty.[/quote]

You’re not that far off the mark i’m afraid. Interesting times are coming, and i don’t think they’ll be hilarious, tbh. But i do think we have to rely on science to make a difference when that time comes.

137

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
ephrem, do you think it’s hilarious that Sloth imagines a world dominated by Christians breeding like rabbits? What happens when the Earth has been ravaged by overpopulation, what will the devout say then? Perhaps religion will have solved the world’s problems by then, and there will be no famine or poverty.[/quote]

Oh no, not the overpopulation thing again! Yes, let’s all shoot for below replacemnt level fertility rates.[/quote]

We’re close to 8 billion people Sloth. What are you worried about?

138

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Bullshit wishful thinking Sloth. As scientific progress pushes on the case for god grows weaker, and weaker, and weaker.
[/quote]

Nope. The secular grow cold, gray, and barren. They abort and contracept their future. What future it does give birth to, increasingly is born into broken homes. Face it, godless/faithless ‘society’ is bunch of old men and women trying to teeter on an ever shorter supply of young shoulders. You spend off the social capital of your more devout forefathers, increasingly die alone without committed wife or children (relying on the state), and charge off your debt, private and public, to a vanishingly shrinking future generation. The demographic argument has in fact the most powerful pro-immigration argument. And guess who’s been taking up the invitation? Big, devout, religious, families. A double whammy! You’ve already lost. Now we get to watch it unfold. I don’t have any worry about the future of religious belief, it’s so very self-sustaining.

139

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Bullshit wishful thinking Sloth. As scientific progress pushes on the case for god grows weaker, and weaker, and weaker.
[/quote]

Nope. The secular grow cold, gray, and barren. They abort and contracept their future. What future it does give birth to, increasingly is born into broken homes. Face it, godless/faithless ‘society’ is bunch of old men and women trying to teeter on ever shorter supply of young shoulders. You spend off the social capital of your more devout forefathers, increasingly die alone without committed wife or children (relying on the state), and charge off your debt, private and public, to a vanishingly shrinking future generation. The demographic argument has in fact the most powerful pro-immigration argument. And guess who’s been taking up the invitation? Big, devout, religious, families. A double whammy! You’ve already lost. Now we get to watch it unfold. I don’t have any worry about the future of religious belief, it’s so very self-sustaining.[/quote]

Sadly the more religious a modern society becomes, it’s gullability increases exponentially.

In time you’ll live in an Idiocracy.

“Ooh, My Balls!”

140

Off to bed. Goodnight!