Atheism-o-Phobia Part 3

MikeTheBear · November 25, 2010, 12:26am

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Nope. Scientific progress would be stuck at making fire without the ordering and civilizing nature of religion. [/quote]

I agree here. But the key to the statement is “ordering and civilizing.” This would have happened regardless of whether religions developed or not. Humans are social creatures, and you can’t have a society without order. Religion just provided a really convenient enforcement mechanism. A police force composed humans cannot be everywhere at all times. Thus, “don’t steal or the police might catch you and you might go to jail” isn’t nearly as powerful as “don’t steal, or an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing being will catch you and you will be punished, possibly for all eternity.” This is precisely why religion was invented - it creates an uber police force that doesn’t cost anything and can catch people doing acts that a regular police force couldn’t, such as premarital sex or what teenage boys do when they lock the bathroom door.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
And, you can’t relegate religion to history as it can and will outlast modern atheism and anything-goes-spiritualism. “Go forth and multiply.” [/quote]

Evidence to support this proposition? Religion sells an invisible product. People are eventually going to catch on to this fact. A recent poll reported that those who “None” (or it may have been “Other”) in response to what religion they practice numbered around 20%. Granted, not all 20% were necessarily atheist or even agnostic. It is perfectly acceptable to believe in a supreme being but not practice an organized religion. Heck, even if I were 100% convinced that there was some supreme being, I still wouldn’t join an organized religion because I think organized religion is bullshit. And I’m sure a good number of that 20% feels the same way - that there may very well be a supreme being but organized religion is a bunch of nonsense. I predict that in the next 20 years, that number may very well double. Why do I think this? I borrow the words of George Carlin:

“When it comes to the bullshit department, a businessman can’t compete with a clergyman. Religion sells an invisible product, it takes in billions of dollars a year, and doesn’t pay a dime taxes. Holy shit!”

People are going to catch on…

MikeTheBear · November 25, 2010, 12:32am

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Bullshit wishful thinking Sloth. As scientific progress pushes on the case for god grows weaker, and weaker, and weaker.
[/quote]

Nope. The secular grow cold, gray, and barren. They abort and contracept their future. What future it does give birth to, increasingly is born into broken homes. Face it, godless/faithless ‘society’ is bunch of old men and women trying to teeter on an ever shorter supply of young shoulders. You spend off the social capital of your more devout forefathers, increasingly die alone without committed wife or children (relying on the state), and charge off your debt, private and public, to a vanishingly shrinking future generation. The demographic argument has in fact the most powerful pro-immigration argument. And guess who’s been taking up the invitation? Big, devout, religious, families. A double whammy! You’ve already lost. Now we get to watch it unfold. I don’t have any worry about the future of religious belief, it’s so very self-sustaining.[/quote]

Pure speculation and talking points.

BTW Sloth, how many kids do YOU have?

Sloth · November 25, 2010, 12:42am

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Bullshit wishful thinking Sloth. As scientific progress pushes on the case for god grows weaker, and weaker, and weaker.
[/quote]

Nope. The secular grow cold, gray, and barren. They abort and contracept their future. What future it does give birth to, increasingly is born into broken homes. Face it, godless/faithless ‘society’ is bunch of old men and women trying to teeter on an ever shorter supply of young shoulders. You spend off the social capital of your more devout forefathers, increasingly die alone without committed wife or children (relying on the state), and charge off your debt, private and public, to a vanishingly shrinking future generation. The demographic argument has in fact the most powerful pro-immigration argument. And guess who’s been taking up the invitation? Big, devout, religious, families. A double whammy! You’ve already lost. Now we get to watch it unfold. I don’t have any worry about the future of religious belief, it’s so very self-sustaining.[/quote]

Pure speculation and talking points.

BTW Sloth, how many kids do YOU have?[/quote]

None. And, without some sort of miracle, I never will. Shall I share my medical history to satisfy you? Careful trying to score cheap victories, you never know when you’ll end up with egg on your face.

And nope, not speculation. Your own atheist academics are starting to take notice…

Dmgctrl · November 25, 2010, 1:04am

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sounds like you might benefit from some courses in cognitive psychology, social psychology, human development, experimental design, and statistics.

Your blanket dismissal of psychology seems like an uneducated response to an entire field of science based on a narrow range of personal experience. I can’t tell you how many people hear the word psychology in my degree, and automatically assume I’m going to have them lie down on a couch and psychoanalyze them. Have you even heard of industrial/organizational psychology and do you understand it has nothing to do with Freud?
[/quote]

Exactly. Psychology does not have to deal with introspection, or other techniques that may or may not work. And once again, just so it sticks in “you might benefit from some courses in cognitive psychology, social psychology, human development, experimental design, and statistics.” -forlife

MikeTheBear · November 25, 2010, 1:17am

[quote]Sloth wrote:
None. And, without some sort of miracle, I never will. Shall I share my medical history to satisfy you? Careful trying to score cheap victories, you never know when you’ll end up with egg on your face. [/quote]

I’m sorry for that, and I’m not trying to score a cheap shot. But here’s the thing: unless you know what it’s like trying to raise children, you really should not be criticizing those who wish to limit the size of their families for practical reasons. That’s not a cheap shot. That’s experience, and I’m sorry, but you don’t have any. I don’t how many articles you’ve read, who you talked with, or whatever, you really should not be throwing stones here.

[quote]And nope, not speculation. Your own atheist academics are starting to take notice…
http://www.amazon.com/Shall-Religious-Inherit-Earth-Twenty-First/dp/1846681448[/quote]

I read the summary of that book and some of the articles you’ve linked. But here are my issues with this argument:

I don’t dispute that there is a correlation between religious belief and family size. But correlation does not equal causation. Are the very religious really having large families because of their religious beliefs? Would they have had large families even if they were non-believers? These questions cannot be answered conclusively from the evidence presented.
Even if we assume that having larger families is a direct result of religious belief, religious belief is not genetic, and there is no guarantee that all 10 kids from a single set of parents will dutifully follow their parents’ beliefs. Now, I agree that parents have a huge influence on their kids’ beliefs, and parents can, as the review of this book said, “innoculate their children against secularism.” Some parents go so far as to disown their children if they do not carry on their religious tradition, which is a bit sad. But let’s face, there is no guarantee here. I’ve known plenty of atheists/agnostics who came from very religious families. I count myself among them, although we weren’t THAT religious. Matt Dillahunty, from the Atheist Experience, grew up a Fundamentalist Baptist and wanted to become a Baptist minister. Ironically, as he began to study religion more in depth on his way to becoming a minister, he came to realize that it was all a crock, and became an atheist. And then there are those kids who continue with religious traditions, may publicly say that they practice “X” religion, but do so only to avoid conflict with their parents and siblings who are religious and don’t actually believe what the religion says.
Invisible product. Billions of dollars. No taxes. People will catch on.

MikeTheBear · November 25, 2010, 1:26am

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

~George Carlin

Tiribulus · November 25, 2010, 1:36am

[quote]ephrem wrote:
On the subject of psychology and the assumption of self in regards to religion

As Tirubulus pointed out, religion [Christianity[ has nothing to gain from a deeper understanding of self. >>>[/quote]The indwelling presence of the designer along with His written Word provide not only the very deepest, but also the only authentic view of self that will ever exist.

Contrary to what you may think some useful statistical/observational data has been gleaned by even the most vicious God hating pagan psychology departments. On that level they provide some very solid empirical evidence for the gospel because they can’t help it. It’s when they start interpreting that the sin REALLY starts flowing.

Mental issues caused by verifiable and quantifiable physical defects fall under the field of medicine in my view and will never be what I’m referring to when disparaging “psychology”. Oh yeah, I never mentioned Freud once, but he was at one time a true icon in that world, but that was then.

Sloth · November 25, 2010, 1:44am

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
I’m sorry for that, and I’m not trying to score a cheap shot. But here’s the thing: unless you know what it’s like trying to raise children…[/quote]

No. Fertility rates, out-of-wedlock rates, the impact that will be felt from an increasingly elderly population living off of an increasingly shrinking worforce…No, you don’t have to have kids.

krsoneeeee · November 25, 2010, 1:56am

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Atheism-o-phobia?

How can you be afraid of atheism when you know God exists? More a like atheism-I-disregard-you.

No disrepsect to the atheists, I could care less for the most part about others beliefs, but I just don’t understand this whole phobia thing. Is it basically saying the the small majority of you believe you are right and everyone else is afraid to accept a false truth? Because I am sitting in my living room, feet on the carpet, taste of diaspartic acid on my tongue pondering the reality of it all. The reason my worn and callused hands fight, yet love on a daily basis and the simple thought she brings can spread a range of emotions all over the spectrum is the reason I know God exists. Explain that shit boys. Tell me why my intellect is that much greater than all other animals, taking a bullet for a friend, giving the shirt off my back to someone homeless not because a book told me to, but my inner soul thought it was right. That kind of stuff goes completely against ‘human nature’ where selfishness prevails, hate is abundant and many confused individuals can’t formulate opinions without the guidance of others.[/quote]

Cant believe no one jumped on this? - You think God exists because you have feelings? A noble post at best but completely misguided and stupid also. Your intellect is greater because you have a bigger brain and can comprehend at a greater complexity…nothing to do with any god.

thunderbolt23 · November 25, 2010, 2:14am

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

Nope. The secular grow cold, gray, and barren. They abort and contracept their future. What future it does give birth to, increasingly is born into broken homes. Face it, godless/faithless ‘society’ is bunch of old men and women trying to teeter on an ever shorter supply of young shoulders. You spend off the social capital of your more devout forefathers, increasingly die alone without committed wife or children (relying on the state), and charge off your debt, private and public, to a vanishingly shrinking future generation. The demographic argument has in fact the most powerful pro-immigration argument. And guess who’s been taking up the invitation? Big, devout, religious, families. A double whammy! You’ve already lost. Now we get to watch it unfold. I don’t have any worry about the future of religious belief, it’s so very self-sustaining.

Pure speculation and talking points.

BTW Sloth, how many kids do YOU have?[/quote]

I am loathe to get involved in this thread, but this point just bleeds stupidity out of its eyeballs.

Whether Sloth has kids or not has exactly nothing to do with an observation about demographic trends, which is exactly what this is.

And, Sloth is correct with respect to his observations. As societies decided to secularize, they engage in self-worship, and this self-worship triggers a spending binge of social capital on the “me, me, me” of “now, now, now” and costs are shifted to the future (as opposed to the concept of developing an inheritance for future). Debts to pass on instead of surplus. It’s an irrefutable fact of secularized societies.

This isn’t some brief for theocracy, it’s a realization that faithless, secularist societies are disintegrating societies, and thus the atheists’ “utopia” is nothing close to it. Untethered to anything beyond the terrestrial, societies devolve into license, materialism, and hedonism, as there is no ethic beyond gratifying individual wants.

Oh, and whether I have kids or not also doesn’t matter to the point, since among our “enlightened atheists” - the smart guys in the room according to, well, themselves - this apparently is a point of confusion.

MikeTheBear · November 25, 2010, 2:45am

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

I am loathe to get involved in this thread, but this point just bleeds stupidity out of its eyeballs.

Whether Sloth has kids or not has exactly nothing to do with an observation about demographic trends, which is exactly what this is.[/quote]

No, it’s relevant. It’s the difference between an academic who merely studies things and someone with experience. There are very real and practical reasons for a couple to limit the number of kids they have and it is unrelated to selfishness or denying religion. In some cases, it can actually benefit the children. This all comes from the experience of being married and raising kids. Unless you have that, you really have no business telling people that they are “bad” for not having lots of kids.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
And, Sloth is correct with respect to his observations. As societies decided to secularize, they engage in self-worship, and this self-worship triggers a spending binge of social capital on the “me, me, me” of “now, now, now” and costs are shifted to the future (as opposed to the concept of developing an inheritance for future). Debts to pass on instead of surplus. It’s an irrefutable fact of secularized societies.

This isn’t some brief for theocracy, it’s a realization that faithless, secularist societies are disintegrating societies, and thus the atheists’ “utopia” is nothing close to it. Untethered to anything beyond the terrestrial, societies devolve into license, materialism, and hedonism, as there is no ethic beyond gratifying individual wants.[/quote]

You begin with the premise that people can worship a deity or worship themselves, and without a deity society devolves into self-worship and hedonism. That’s a false dichotomy. Actually, it starts with the very false idea that all humans need to “worship” something. I feel no need to worship anything. But even if all of this is true, it is irrelevant to the question of whether or not there exists a supreme being. But it certainly explains why religion was invented. The sad fact is that some (many?) adults still require an invisible babysitter to live good lives. So one was invented to keep these people in line. I freely admit that a lack of faith requires a lot of maturity and personal responsibility - qualities lacking in many people.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Oh, and whether I have kids or not also doesn’t matter to the point, since among our “enlightened atheists” - the smart guys in the room according to, well, themselves - this apparently is a point of confusion.[/quote]

See my point above. The arrogance lies with those who think they can comment on the matter without any experience.

MikeTheBear · November 25, 2010, 3:03am

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Atheism-o-phobia?

How can you be afraid of atheism when you know God exists? More a like atheism-I-disregard-you.

No disrepsect to the atheists, I could care less for the most part about others beliefs, but I just don’t understand this whole phobia thing. Is it basically saying the the small majority of you believe you are right and everyone else is afraid to accept a false truth? Because I am sitting in my living room, feet on the carpet, taste of diaspartic acid on my tongue pondering the reality of it all. The reason my worn and callused hands fight, yet love on a daily basis and the simple thought she brings can spread a range of emotions all over the spectrum is the reason I know God exists. Explain that shit boys. Tell me why my intellect is that much greater than all other animals, taking a bullet for a friend, giving the shirt off my back to someone homeless not because a book told me to, but my inner soul thought it was right. That kind of stuff goes completely against ‘human nature’ where selfishness prevails, hate is abundant and many confused individuals can’t formulate opinions without the guidance of others.[/quote]

Cant believe no one jumped on this? - You think God exists because you have feelings? A noble post at best but completely misguided and stupid also. Your intellect is greater because you have a bigger brain and can comprehend at a greater complexity…nothing to do with any god.
[/quote]

No one jumped on it because it was too easy. It’s a classic argument from ignorance:

I am smarter than all other creatures and have feelings and emotions.
I cannot explain why I am so much smarter or why I have emotions.
The only explanation I can come up with is that a supreme being gave me these qualities.
Therefore, God exists.

It’s sad really because all one has to do is turn on a nature show on the Discovery or Science channel to see that animals who live in groups display certain social skills and a certain amount of cooperation. Morality does not come from some “inner soul.” It is a personality trait selected by evolution that allows humans and other social animals to function in groups.

ZEB · November 25, 2010, 3:11am

(Yawn) When you guys get done are going to start comparing apples to oranges? Why does this drone on endlessly? Science cannot prove God exists because it’s faith based. The Bible clearly states that “it is impossible to please God without faith”. God will never be proven by science. Really, that should settle it right?

Science is science and faith is faith. Two separate and distinctly different things.

Is this enough to please anyone other than me?

Sloth · November 25, 2010, 3:26am

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

No, it’s relevant. .[/quote]

No, it isn’t. It doesn’t change one thing about birthrates, an aging population, out-of-wedlock rates, etc. Your knowledge about my ability to even have children doesn’t change the reality on the ground. Answer me this, did out of wedlock rates drop or rise–even if only by one percentage point–when I answered your question? No? This matter is now closed.

Sloth · November 25, 2010, 3:24am

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
It is a personality trait selected by evolution that allows humans and other social animals to function in groups.[/quote]

That’s not morality.

Tiribulus · November 25, 2010, 4:54am

[quote]ZEB wrote:
(Yawn) When you guys get done are going to start comparing apples to oranges? Why does this drone on endlessly? Science cannot prove God exists because it’s faith based. The Bible clearly states that “it is impossible to please God without faith”. God will never be proven by science. Really, that should settle it right?

Science is science and faith is faith. Two separate and distinctly different things.

Is this enough to please anyone other than me?[/quote]The God I know will never squeeze Himself into a petri dish and submit to the poking and probing of some eggheaded unbelievers at some eggheaded university somewhere.

The bible doesn’t even try to prove God’s existence. It simply assumes it. Genesis 1:1a “In the beginning God”.

krsoneeeee · November 25, 2010, 5:42am

[quote]ZEB wrote:
(Yawn) When you guys get done are going to start comparing apples to oranges? Why does this drone on endlessly? Science cannot prove God exists because it’s faith based. The Bible clearly states that “it is impossible to please God without faith”. God will never be proven by science. Really, that should settle it right?

Science is science and faith is faith. Two separate and distinctly different things.

Is this enough to please anyone other than me?[/quote]

ZEB no offence but most of your posts are stupid - You’re making a random assumption that we will never get evidence of gods existence, or lack there of. Causal determinism comes to mind - sure faith is different to science but often in the absence of a logical/rational argument, we substitute a stupid/irrational one. Ritual is often substituted in the absence of such logical evidence…So no, what your saying is not good enough.

ZEB · November 25, 2010, 5:46am

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
(Yawn) When you guys get done are going to start comparing apples to oranges? Why does this drone on endlessly? Science cannot prove God exists because it’s faith based. The Bible clearly states that “it is impossible to please God without faith”. God will never be proven by science. Really, that should settle it right?

Science is science and faith is faith. Two separate and distinctly different things.

Is this enough to please anyone other than me?[/quote]The God I know will never squeeze Himself into a petri dish and submit to the poking and probing of some eggheaded unbelievers at some eggheaded university somewhere.

The bible doesn’t even try to prove God’s existence. It simply assumes it. Genesis 1:1a “In the beginning God”.
[/quote]

But we both know there is nothing wrong with science. Science has given us some magnificent things far too numerous to mention. But as I said, it is not faith, in fact they are almost diametrically opposed. Science is a systematic knowledge of the physical world gained through observations and experimentation. It is able to produce hard evidence which helps us deduce facts. How can this be compared to something which almost by definition is the exact opposite? We know in our hearts through our own personal experiences that God exists. This cannot be proven by either you or I, yet we still know.

Atheists should no more attack those of us who believe in God than we should attack them for their strong belief in science. There is plenty of room for both in a world that needs answers to its many problems.

Naturally as Christians we want to reach out and evangelize. We want everyone to have what we have. If I didn’t feel this way I would have to doubt my own faith. But any Christian who is caught in a debate attempting to “prove” there is a God does not honor God and will also fail to create a convert out of the one he is debating. These threads are nothing but a circus created by either naive Christians or atheists who are itching for a fight to flex their latest philosophical leanings.

I say, good for science long may it flourish and help mankind - And I thank God for his mighty grace and mercy and his son Jesus Christ who came to save believers through his blood shed on the cross!

ZEB · November 25, 2010, 5:49am