Atheism-o-phobia Part 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Do you believe you possess free will?

[/quote]

…you’d have to define free will for me, but as a general answer: No, i do not…
[/quote]

Oh boy, you’re no fun.

Yeah, free will, as in, we are independently able to direct and determine the choices we make and the results we will receive in life. These choices are of course influenced, but not ultimately determined, by physical, environmental, cultural, and perhaps, divine forces.

Any problems with this?
[/quote]

…yes, i think our choices in life are determined by physical, environmental and cultural forces. This is inevatable. If you are faced with a choice, how are you going to choose? You’d choose based on preferences you have, right? How else would you come to an independent conclusion if they aren’t based on those conditions?[/quote]
If you believe in determinism how would you ever know any truth statement you make about determinism, relativism and other stuff to be true if determinism made it so that you would believe your truth statements to be true.

If one is a materialist how can one have any confidence in the chemical reactions and electrical impulses in the brain telling them anything about reality as it is.

122

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…no, i have no desire to grope women on the subway, not even the hot ones. If other people are involved other reasons become involved why i wouldn’t go against my conscience; the golden rule for example…
[/quote]

So, what, if you groped her and got away with it the universe would consciously make sure you got groped by some dude on a subway?

123

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…no, i have no desire to grope women on the subway, not even the hot ones. If other people are involved other reasons become involved why i wouldn’t go against my conscience; the golden rule for example…
[/quote]

So, what, if you groped her and got away with it the universe would consciously make sure you got groped by some dude on a subway?[/quote]

…is that what the golden rule is to you: a form of karma? No, i would not want to be groped by anyone on the subway without my consent. That’s my interpretation of the golden rule…

124

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…no, i have no desire to grope women on the subway, not even the hot ones. If other people are involved other reasons become involved why i wouldn’t go against my conscience; the golden rule for example…
[/quote]

So, what, if you groped her and got away with it the universe would consciously make sure you got groped by some dude on a subway?[/quote]

…is that what the golden rule is to you: a form of karma? No, i would not want to be groped by anyone on the subway without my consent. That’s my interpretation of the golden rule…[/quote]

It’s not a question of you wanting to be groped, but you doing the groping. There are plenty of people who don’t want to be groped themselves, but will grope. The universe doesn’t make sure they get groped back.

125

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…yes, i think our choices in life are determined by physical, environmental and cultural forces. This is inevatable. If you are faced with a choice, how are you going to choose? You’d choose based on preferences you have, right? How else would you come to an independent conclusion if they aren’t based on those conditions?[/quote]

If you believe in determinism how would you ever know any truth statement you make about determinism, relativism and other stuff to be true if determinism made it so that you would believe your truth statements to be true.

If one is a materialist how can one have any confidence in the chemical reactions and electrical impulses in the brain telling them anything about reality as it is.[/quote]

…whether i have confidence or doubt in any of this does not matter one iota what reality is concerned; i still have that to deal with. I’m not doubting reality, but i am wary of our interpretation of reality. What i’m talking about on this threads is my perception of reality, and how i interpret reality…

…this interpretation is, by definition, flawed but for me it’s a working interpretation, as in; that which makes the most sense based on my own experiences, and having logic, science, honesty and reason to guide me through the maze…

…that’s my only criteria for truthiness, all the while recognizing that there’s a very, very good chance it’s all bullshit anyway. But that doesn’t matter to me…

126

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…no, i have no desire to grope women on the subway, not even the hot ones. If other people are involved other reasons become involved why i wouldn’t go against my conscience; the golden rule for example…
[/quote]

So, what, if you groped her and got away with it the universe would consciously make sure you got groped by some dude on a subway?[/quote]

…is that what the golden rule is to you: a form of karma? No, i would not want to be groped by anyone on the subway without my consent. That’s my interpretation of the golden rule…[/quote]

It’s not a question of you wanting to be groped, but you doing the groping. There are plenty of people who don’t want to be groped themselves, but will grope. The universe doesn’t make sure they get groped back.
[/quote]

…i don’t let other people’s actions dictate what i do. That others grope without retribution does not mean i’ll grope. That does not compute…

127

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i don’t let other people’s actions dictate what i do. That others grope without retribution does not mean i’ll grope. That does not compute…
[/quote]

Then you don’t grope because you just don’t feel like it. Not becuase you don’t want to be groped.

128

^
You don’t grope because God tells you not to grope, right? Or is it something else. I imagine you weren’t groping before you were a Christian, right?

Personally, I don’t grope because it royally screw with my psyche and ability to have positive relationships with the fairer sex and because I empathize and sympathize with people regardless of whether I want to or not and it would make me feel horrible as a result even if there were not external consequences.

129

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i don’t let other people’s actions dictate what i do. That others grope without retribution does not mean i’ll grope. That does not compute…
[/quote]

Then you don’t grope because you just don’t feel like it. Not becuase you don’t want to be groped. [/quote]

…that’s what i said in my reply to Cortes…

130

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…that’s a very odd question Cortes. To whom would it be right or wrong? All i know is that if i ignore my conscience i end up guilt-tripping myself, and that sucks, so…[/quote]

Just talking about you right now.

So, would it be all right to say that the only thing that keeps you from groping unsuspecting women on the subway is the guilty feeling you would later incur?

(For the sake of arguing hypotheticals, let’s assume you would not get caught and were confident enough you wouldn’t get caught that it would not affect your motivations.)[/quote]

…no, i have no desire to grope women on the subway, not even the hot ones. If other people are involved other reasons become involved why i wouldn’t go against my conscience; the golden rule for example…
[/quote]

Okay, you’re making my job harder than it has to be. The point was not the act, but the motivation behind abstaining from the act. That’s what I’m attempting to get at.

I just want to know if the acts that you consider to be immoral, you refrain from only because you will feel guilty later on. Yes or no?

131

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^
You don’t grope because God tells you not to grope, right? Or is it something else. I imagine you weren’t groping before you were a Christian, right?

Personally, I don’t grope because it royally screw with my psyche and ability to have positive relationships with the fairer sex and because I empathize and sympathize with people regardless of whether I want to or not and it would make me feel horrible as a result even if there were not external consequences.[/quote]

So, like ephrem said, guilt. So guilt is the only motivator (or demotivator) in this case?

132

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…that’s a very odd question Cortes. To whom would it be right or wrong? All i know is that if i ignore my conscience i end up guilt-tripping myself, and that sucks, so…[/quote]

Just talking about you right now.

So, would it be all right to say that the only thing that keeps you from groping unsuspecting women on the subway is the guilty feeling you would later incur?

(For the sake of arguing hypotheticals, let’s assume you would not get caught and were confident enough you wouldn’t get caught that it would not affect your motivations.)[/quote]

…no, i have no desire to grope women on the subway, not even the hot ones. If other people are involved other reasons become involved why i wouldn’t go against my conscience; the golden rule for example…
[/quote]

Okay, you’re making my job harder than it has to be. The point was not the act, but the motivation behind abstaining from the act. That’s what I’m attempting to get at.

I just want to know if the acts that you consider to be immoral, you refrain from only because you will feel guilty later on. Yes or no?
[/quote]

…no, that’s not the only reason. There’s a matter of principle. If i find an act immoral i’d be a hypocrite to myself by doing it anyway. Suppose my boss orders me to do something i find immoral. I won’t do it. The last time i did it was when the shiftleader of the bar i was working the door for wanted me to refuse moroccans and turks entry. I ended up refusing two fine young gentlemen, who just happened to be turks, entry. Never again…

133

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^
You don’t grope because God tells you not to grope, right? Or is it something else. I imagine you weren’t groping before you were a Christian, right?
[/quote]

And just to take issue with a point here, God doesn’t “tell” us to do anything one way or the other. We are free to choose what we do. It’s just that we are aware of the rules, and that there are rules, and a few of them never change, regardless of the situation, and that those rules have consequences.

134

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…that’s a very odd question Cortes. To whom would it be right or wrong? All i know is that if i ignore my conscience i end up guilt-tripping myself, and that sucks, so…[/quote]

Just talking about you right now.

So, would it be all right to say that the only thing that keeps you from groping unsuspecting women on the subway is the guilty feeling you would later incur?

(For the sake of arguing hypotheticals, let’s assume you would not get caught and were confident enough you wouldn’t get caught that it would not affect your motivations.)[/quote]

…no, i have no desire to grope women on the subway, not even the hot ones. If other people are involved other reasons become involved why i wouldn’t go against my conscience; the golden rule for example…
[/quote]

Okay, you’re making my job harder than it has to be. The point was not the act, but the motivation behind abstaining from the act. That’s what I’m attempting to get at.

I just want to know if the acts that you consider to be immoral, you refrain from only because you will feel guilty later on. Yes or no?
[/quote]

…no, that’s not the only reason. There’s a matter of principle. If i find an act immoral i’d be a hypocrite to myself by doing it anyway. Suppose my boss orders me to do something i find immoral. I won’t do it. The last time i did it was when the shiftleader of the bar i was working the door for wanted me to refuse moroccans and turks entry. I ended up refusing two fine young gentlemen, who just happened to be turks, entry. Never again…
[/quote]

Excellent, now we are getting somewhere!

Thank you very much for sharing, yours is a much more elegant example than my crude groping one.

Principle. Very nice. So, how do you go about determining your principles?

135

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^
You don’t grope because God tells you not to grope, right? Or is it something else. I imagine you weren’t groping before you were a Christian, right?[/quote]

Christian social norms, without me being a true christian or my parents devout by any measure, handed to me at a young age. My empathy grew from that. I’m a product of western judea-christian norms and morals before I was really a christian. I wasn’t to steal, cheat, lie, or grope because it was flat out, as an absolute, wrong. My empathy developed by ancient norms that forced me to look past my own wishes. So, maybe you could in fact say that. Since I simply adopted christian morality, or my parents did, from the society I lived in.

136

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…no, that’s not the only reason. There’s a matter of principle. If i find an act immoral i’d be a hypocrite to myself by doing it anyway. Suppose my boss orders me to do something i find immoral. I won’t do it. The last time i did it was when the shiftleader of the bar i was working the door for wanted me to refuse moroccans and turks entry. I ended up refusing two fine young gentlemen, who just happened to be turks, entry. Never again…
[/quote]

Excellent, now we are getting somewhere!

Thank you very much for sharing, yours is a much more elegant example than my crude groping one.

Principle. Very nice. So, how do you go about determining your principles?
[/quote]

…live and learn. Upbringing. Psychological traits [i’m a sensitive fellow]. My sense of fairness is fairly well developed, but how that came to be, well, i guess that comes from seeing how my mother was treated at home [unfairly], and how it affected her, for instance…

…and again, the golden rule is a good yardstick for me…

137

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
Darwinism[/quote]

Yeah, I only reacted to your ad hominems, straw mans, and appeals to authority. I have two B.S. degrees behind my name. Get over yourself. Because it’s hard to take you seriously this way, look at forlife and eph, both disagree with me, neither attack me.

Okay, but who said Darwinism is correct. I purpose that the theory of evolution that was propounded before Charles Darwin’s time, by Lamark (1809) and Geoffroy de Saint-Hilaire was correct, however it only being a theory. The theory of evolution as a scientific hypothesis is in perfect agreement with the Christian (Catholic) conception of the universe. As a philosophical speculation, the conception is in agreement with the Christian view of the universe.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the same language thing, can you explain that to me?

138

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…no, that’s not the only reason. There’s a matter of principle. If i find an act immoral i’d be a hypocrite to myself by doing it anyway. Suppose my boss orders me to do something i find immoral. I won’t do it. The last time i did it was when the shiftleader of the bar i was working the door for wanted me to refuse moroccans and turks entry. I ended up refusing two fine young gentlemen, who just happened to be turks, entry. Never again…
[/quote]

Excellent, now we are getting somewhere!

Thank you very much for sharing, yours is a much more elegant example than my crude groping one.

Principle. Very nice. So, how do you go about determining your principles?
[/quote]

…live and learn. Upbringing. Psychological traits [i’m a sensitive fellow]. My sense of fairness is fairly well developed, but how that came to be, well, i guess that comes from seeing how my mother was treated at home [unfairly], and how it affected her, for instance…

…and again, the golden rule is a good yardstick for me…
[/quote]

I see you have ideas for what is fair and unfair, as well. :wink:

And now, how do you determine that these principles you have acquired are reliable?

(going to bed though, now, so I won’t be able to reply for a while)

139

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…no, that’s not the only reason. There’s a matter of principle. If i find an act immoral i’d be a hypocrite to myself by doing it anyway. Suppose my boss orders me to do something i find immoral. I won’t do it. The last time i did it was when the shiftleader of the bar i was working the door for wanted me to refuse moroccans and turks entry. I ended up refusing two fine young gentlemen, who just happened to be turks, entry. Never again…
[/quote]

Excellent, now we are getting somewhere!

Thank you very much for sharing, yours is a much more elegant example than my crude groping one.

Principle. Very nice. So, how do you go about determining your principles?
[/quote]

…live and learn. Upbringing. Psychological traits [i’m a sensitive fellow]. My sense of fairness is fairly well developed, but how that came to be, well, i guess that comes from seeing how my mother was treated at home [unfairly], and how it affected her, for instance…

…and again, the golden rule is a good yardstick for me…
[/quote]

I see you have ideas for what is fair and unfair, as well. :wink:

And now, how do you determine that these principles you have acquired are reliable?

(going to bed though, now, so I won’t be able to reply for a while)
[/quote]

…reliable in what way? You could say that if i do something i find moral and subsequently notice how someone else is negatively affected by it, i’d make sure not to act like that towards that person…

…but that’s rare. I mean, it’s not so rare that someone finds me offensive for instance, or crass, but i have little regard for social norms. So yeah, i still don’t get what you mean by reliable?

…sleep well!

140

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…no, that’s not the only reason. There’s a matter of principle. If i find an act immoral i’d be a hypocrite to myself by doing it anyway. Suppose my boss orders me to do something i find immoral. I won’t do it. The last time i did it was when the shiftleader of the bar i was working the door for wanted me to refuse moroccans and turks entry. I ended up refusing two fine young gentlemen, who just happened to be turks, entry. Never again…
[/quote]

Excellent, now we are getting somewhere!

Thank you very much for sharing, yours is a much more elegant example than my crude groping one.

Principle. Very nice. So, how do you go about determining your principles?
[/quote]

…live and learn. Upbringing. Psychological traits [i’m a sensitive fellow]. My sense of fairness is fairly well developed, but how that came to be, well, i guess that comes from seeing how my mother was treated at home [unfairly], and how it affected her, for instance…

…and again, the golden rule is a good yardstick for me…
[/quote]

I see you have ideas for what is fair and unfair, as well. :wink:

And now, how do you determine that these principles you have acquired are reliable?

(going to bed though, now, so I won’t be able to reply for a while)
[/quote]

…reliable in what way? You could say that if i do something i find moral and subsequently notice how someone else is negatively affected by it, i’d make sure not to act like that towards that person…

…but that’s rare. I mean, it’s not so rare that someone finds me offensive for instance, or crass, but i have little regard for social norms. So yeah, i still don’t get what you mean by reliable?

…sleep well!
[/quote]

Alright I lied. Really last post tonight:

How do you know you can trust them?

To use your example, you felt that you acted against your principles when denying the two Turkish gentlemen entrance to the bar you were working at. How do you know that your boss was wrong and you are right?