[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
Personally, if a god existed, I feel he’d be more impressed with people looking at faith critically, and he’d be quite happy with the people who reject scripture/god on the basis of a lack of evidence.
[/quote]
You are human. If God actually does exist, why on earth would you expect him to think or act anything at all like you?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Cortes, you said the Catholic church encourages sincere fact-based inquiry. I’m curious how far that tolerance extends? My own church claimed the same, but what they really meant was that everyone should pursue truth, but they are only doing it correctly if they arrive at the same conclusions shared by the church.
What if the sincere pursuit of truth leads someone out of the Catholic church and indeed away from the belief in a god?[/quote]
I imagine there are plenty of people who have done just that. (Contrary to popular belief) the Church does is not working to manipulate, deceive, and scare us into her bosom. I’ve personally never encountered anything like this, and so far as I know, the official stance of the Catholic Church is to encourage the understanding, study and knowledge of the physical world via the scientific method.
Also this:
My personal thought is that the Church thinks about this about like I do. People are going to be curious and inquire, and in a congregation of 1 billion and a world of 6 billion people, if there are any egregious disconnects between the teaching and reality, they are eventually going to come out. So you had better just keep everything transparent and let people come to their own conclusions.
(And could we all please refrain from bringing up the terrible pedo scandal stuff. That’s not what I am here referring to, and if you want to talk about it for the nth time please start yet another thread about it.)
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Do you believe you possess free will?
[/quote]
…you’d have to define free will for me, but as a general answer: No, i do not…
[/quote]
Oh boy, you’re no fun.
Yeah, free will, as in, we are independently able to direct and determine the choices we make and the results we will receive in life. These choices are of course influenced, but not ultimately determined, by physical, environmental, cultural, and perhaps, divine forces.
Any problems with this?
[/quote]
…yes, i think our choices in life are determined by physical, environmental and cultural forces. This is inevatable. If you are faced with a choice, how are you going to choose? You’d choose based on preferences you have, right? How else would you come to an independent conclusion if they aren’t based on those conditions?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Do you believe you possess free will?
[/quote]
…you’d have to define free will for me, but as a general answer: No, i do not…
[/quote]
Oh boy, you’re no fun.
Yeah, free will, as in, we are independently able to direct and determine the choices we make and the results we will receive in life. These choices are of course influenced, but not ultimately determined, by physical, environmental, cultural, and perhaps, divine forces.
Any problems with this?
[/quote]
…yes, i think our choices in life are determined by physical, environmental and cultural forces. This is inevatable. If you are faced with a choice, how are you going to choose? You’d choose based on preferences you have, right? How else would you come to an independent conclusion if they aren’t based on those conditions?[/quote]
Wholly determined? 100%?
Cortes, that sounds reasonable. Would the Catholic church, and would you, view honest defectors as still inheriting the kingdom of god, identically to if their pursuit of truth had caused them to stay in the fold?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Cortes, that sounds reasonable. Would the Catholic church, and would you, view honest defectors as still inheriting the kingdom of god, identically to if their pursuit of truth had caused them to stay in the fold?[/quote]
Not really for me to say, and I certainly don’t know who is going to Heaven and who to Hell.
According to the teachings of the Church, however, it’s going to be pretty damned hard for those who reject the Church to inherit the Kingdom of God. Less hard for those who have never known or accepted the Catholic Church as the truth, but not necessarily easy, either.
I would say that it is very unfortunate that they came to the wrong conclusion. I also believe, and there is some evidence to support my belief, that Jesus is going to save those people you are talking about if their search was truly honest, and that they did not engage in activities that would isolate them from God before their death (ie mortal sin).
On a side note, you probably know this already, but the Catholic Church welcomes homosexuals along with all people. She just asks that you refrain from that particular behavior. And trust me, she’s freakin strict with heterosexual behavior as well. I’m not looking to convert you, of course, and don’t by any means expect to. Just letting you know in case you had the wrong idea that we are taught “gays are evil” or some such bullshit.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Do you believe you possess free will?
[/quote]
…you’d have to define free will for me, but as a general answer: No, i do not…
[/quote]
Oh boy, you’re no fun.
Yeah, free will, as in, we are independently able to direct and determine the choices we make and the results we will receive in life. These choices are of course influenced, but not ultimately determined, by physical, environmental, cultural, and perhaps, divine forces.
Any problems with this?
[/quote]
…yes, i think our choices in life are determined by physical, environmental and cultural forces. This is inevatable. If you are faced with a choice, how are you going to choose? You’d choose based on preferences you have, right? How else would you come to an independent conclusion if they aren’t based on those conditions?[/quote]
Wholly determined? 100%?
[/quote]
…i have no reason to believe otherwise. So yes, 100%…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Do you believe you possess free will?
[/quote]
…you’d have to define free will for me, but as a general answer: No, i do not…
[/quote]
Oh boy, you’re no fun.
Yeah, free will, as in, we are independently able to direct and determine the choices we make and the results we will receive in life. These choices are of course influenced, but not ultimately determined, by physical, environmental, cultural, and perhaps, divine forces.
Any problems with this?
[/quote]
…yes, i think our choices in life are determined by physical, environmental and cultural forces. This is inevatable. If you are faced with a choice, how are you going to choose? You’d choose based on preferences you have, right? How else would you come to an independent conclusion if they aren’t based on those conditions?[/quote]
Wholly determined? 100%?
[/quote]
…i have no reason to believe otherwise. So yes, 100%…
[/quote]
I feel like Rick Deckard.
You really believe there is absolutely no element of self-determination we possess? Not the slightest inkling? Sorry for pressing this so hard, but I have a hard time believing you truly buy this when it leaves the realm of the internet and theory and philosophy and you actually have to make real-life decisions.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
The only true God is Cthulhu[/quote]
I’ve missed this episode. I’m going to have to keep an eye out for it.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i have no reason to believe otherwise. So yes, 100%…
[/quote]
I feel like Rick Deckard.
You really believe there is absolutely no element of self-determination we possess? Not the slightest inkling? Sorry for pressing this so hard, but I have a hard time believing you truly buy this when it leaves the realm of the internet and theory and philosophy and you actually have to make real-life decisions.
[/quote]
…you do realise that Deckard was a replicant, don’t you? The decisions i make are based on predetermined factors, and as such the probability of what i choose is highly predictable…
…suppose i get to choose between 2 cars that are the same in every way except for the color. My choice of color depends on my preference. My preferences are shaped by many, many factors, most of which were outside of my realm of influence [as a kid]…
…i would like to know from you if you can come up with a situation where you’d have to make a life-choice, and you’d have no frame of reference nor preference regarding one or the other…
That’s along the lines of what I believe, regarding the consequences of pursuing truth. I don’t think it’s likely there is a god(s). But if there is, and if god(s) is just, I can’t imagine being judged negatively for sincerely pursuing the truth.
Not to get sidetracked, but I have to ask how willing you would be to stay in the Catholic church if they welcomed you, but only if you refrain from heterosexual behavior for the rest of your life? Would you be willing to stay single and celibate forever, while listening to sermons about heterosexual behavior being an abomination? That’s a pretty high price to pay, especially if it turns out the doctrine is nothing more than the opinions of men.
It’s irrelevant, in any case. I could no more join the Catholic church in good conscience than I could rejoin my former church, even if they suddenly embraced gays as equals. My reasons for leaving are independent of my sexuality. I have several gay friends who are Catholic, and I understand their denominations are more accepting than some. I’m glad they find happiness and meaning there, but my own pursuit of truth is in a different direction.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i have no reason to believe otherwise. So yes, 100%…
[/quote]
I feel like Rick Deckard.
You really believe there is absolutely no element of self-determination we possess? Not the slightest inkling? Sorry for pressing this so hard, but I have a hard time believing you truly buy this when it leaves the realm of the internet and theory and philosophy and you actually have to make real-life decisions.
[/quote]
…you do realise that Deckard was a replicant, don’t you? The decisions i make are based on predetermined factors, and as such the probability of what i choose is highly predictable…
…suppose i get to choose between 2 cars that are the same in every way except for the color. My choice of color depends on my preference. My preferences are shaped by many, many factors, most of which were outside of my realm of influence [as a kid]…
…i would like to know from you if you can come up with a situation where you’d have to make a life-choice, and you’d have no frame of reference nor preference regarding one or the other…
[/quote]
Free-will goes hand in hand with morality. It is the perfect partner, in fact, because without one the other means nothing.
Sure most of the decisions we make are going to be highly predictable one way or the other. And if we were nothing more than evolved animals, then that really would be the end of things. Morality, however, is the flint to strike the fire of the will. Morality offers us the opportunity to test the actual self, and to determine the future. The struggle against temptation, the resistance against (again I emphasize this) our inborn instincts to do something that is very often wholly irrational from the standpoint of evolution, the testing of the flesh against the will, most especially at moments of crisis. A single moment in a life that will forever alter the future of that life and those around it, and the knowledge of that fact informing the decision. Fighting against fear or desire or violent urges that well up from us, primordial. If that’s not will, you are going to have to break things down ad infinitum to come up with a “predicted” alternative.
I already know this is not going to be good enough for you. It’s nearly 5am again here, though, and I’m insane for still being up this late…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…you do realise that Deckard was a replicant, don’t you?
[/quote]
But before I go, yeah, that was kind of the whole point of my saying it. I was originally going to write, “So I’m a robot talking with a robot in a world of robots,” when I thought of the cooler and more esoteric thing that I finally wrote. 
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…you do realise that Deckard was a replicant[/quote]
N…o…No…NOOOOOOOOOOO! I refuse to accept that! Noooo!
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
The only true God is Cthulhu[/quote]
I’ve missed this episode. I’m going to have to keep an eye out for it.
[/quote]
It’s the most recent one. I found it pretty funny, especially with the return of the Coon.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i have no reason to believe otherwise. So yes, 100%…
[/quote]
I feel like Rick Deckard.
You really believe there is absolutely no element of self-determination we possess? Not the slightest inkling? Sorry for pressing this so hard, but I have a hard time believing you truly buy this when it leaves the realm of the internet and theory and philosophy and you actually have to make real-life decisions.
[/quote]
…you do realise that Deckard was a replicant, don’t you? The decisions i make are based on predetermined factors, and as such the probability of what i choose is highly predictable…
…suppose i get to choose between 2 cars that are the same in every way except for the color. My choice of color depends on my preference. My preferences are shaped by many, many factors, most of which were outside of my realm of influence [as a kid]…
…i would like to know from you if you can come up with a situation where you’d have to make a life-choice, and you’d have no frame of reference nor preference regarding one or the other…
[/quote]
Free-will goes hand in hand with morality. It is the perfect partner, in fact, because without one the other means nothing.
Sure most of the decisions we make are going to be highly predictable one way or the other. And if we were nothing more than evolved animals, then that really would be the end of things. Morality, however, is the flint to strike the fire of the will. Morality offers us the opportunity to test the actual self, and to determine the future. The struggle against temptation, the resistance against (again I emphasize this) our inborn instincts to do something that is very often wholly irrational from the standpoint of evolution, the testing of the flesh against the will, most especially at moments of crisis. A single moment in a life that will forever alter the future of that life and those around it, and the knowledge of that fact informing the decision. Fighting against fear or desire or violent urges that well up from us, primordial. If that’s not will, you are going to have to break things down ad infinitum to come up with a “predicted” alternative.
I already know this is not going to be good enough for you. It’s nearly 5am again here, though, and I’m insane for still being up this late…
[/quote]
…doing the “right” thing in a moment of crisis, when it would be “easier” to not do the “right” thing can be a reward in- and of itself. What matters is how you reflect on your actions and how different you want things to be in the future…
…in that respect, while the “right” choice may have been a “new” or unencumbered choice you’ve made, you made that choice to break free from a past you may not think highly of…
…that also means that it’s has not been a free will choice, but a choice that’s been dependant on previous experiences. This does not mean we’re replicants going through life as puppets, but for me at least, life is a puzzle where the choices you make can greatly enhance or fuck-up your life…
…now i’m going to deviate from my usual pragmatic self and admit that in certain situations where i had to make a choice, it felt like that choice was made for me. I mean, there’s always this little voice in the back of my head that knows the right choice. It’s a little voice that i’ve ignored and suffered the consequences. Still does not mean that i think there’s free will, but learning to listen to that little voice makes it easier to navigate through life…
…by relying on that inner voice, i have no doubt whatsoever that whatever happens, and whatever choice i’m going to have to make in the future, as long as “I” stay quiet and just listen, it’ll be allright…
…atheism and spirituality aren’t mutually exclusive you know (:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…you do realise that Deckard was a replicant, don’t you?
[/quote]
But before I go, yeah, that was kind of the whole point of my saying it. I was originally going to write, “So I’m a robot talking with a robot in a world of robots,” when I thought of the cooler and more esoteric thing that I finally wrote. ;)[/quote]
…your life-experience, and the life that you share with your loved ones, that’s yours to enjoy. It does not matter whether you’ve seen C-beams glitter or being content with your family living in one of the most beautiful countries on earth; this all is here and now, and this here and now is all that matters…
Until later…
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
But surely that cant be possible - the bible says he created everything and that humans started, as humans. And all this occurred at the start of “time” -
BUT we know humans evolved later in the piece. So, to combine the two is in complete opposition. ???
[/quote]
What are you mumbling about? Obviously you’re not looking at the literal meaning of what Moses was trying to convey. Let me explain…Yes, God created everything, good. If Genesis was a historical account, why would one man write the story two different times right next to each other? In the same book? Moses was trying to get across that there was order to the world. Hebrew translates day in English to mean something ultimately different than 24 hours or even what they considered a day back then (sunset to sunset). (Jewbacca if you’re in here reading, correct me if I am wrong and also do you speak Hewbrew or Yiddish?)
Well science pretty much proved that humans as we know them have been around for maybe 200,000 years. Kind of hard to be here at the start of time, when the universe is 13.5 million years old? Or, is it billion I do not remember been a long time since I took a science class.
Evolved later in what piece? To combine what two?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Do you believe you possess free will?
[/quote]
…you’d have to define free will for me, but as a general answer: No, i do not…
[/quote]
You willed yourself to logically conclude you do not have free will…interesting.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
If someone is saved there should be a “war” going on with in them. One that desires to do good at all cost, and one that desires to not do good. Sometimes to even be out right evil.
[/quote]
Lulz! Wait…what? Oh, I thought I was supposed to become virtuous and not be tempted to do evil, my bad. I just go back to being okay with having “war” with my temptations over sleeping around with promiscuous women.