Cortes wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Ok, I’ve got three different arguments against this line of thinking, but I’ll take them one at a time so it doesn’t become a complete mess. First, I refer to the bolded area above when I pose the question:
Do you believe you possess free will?
(and on a side note, the only time I ever actually experienced bedbugs was in Japan! And trust me, you do NOT want bedbugs. It’s like falling asleep on an anthill.)
^
That’s Southern Baptist for sure. Not sure what other denominations.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
this seemed to get skipped -
Does the bible say Humans were here from the start of “time”? (everything was created in the first 7 days or whatever)…Are dinosaurs mentioned in the bible, and if so/or not why are there no human records as old as dinosaurs?
Or go one further - knowing we evolved from apes, most likely through a Darwinian natural selection type deal - how do you explain the obvious, that Humans weren’t one of the first entities to be created?[/quote]
Catholics don’t worry about that kind of crap. We are perfectly comfortable with scientific knowledge, and indeed welcome it.
Repeat: That kind of Biblical literalism is NOT to be found in the Catholic Church.
[/quote]
with all due respect
What do mean?
Do you not believe that god created humans?
And, literalism? so you read between the lines and come upon your own interpretation?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, you’re right that some people experience a happy feeling about something when they pray and interpret this as evidence for god. I think it goes a lot deeper than that, though. In my case, it was many years of daily communication with god, inspiration, deep spiritual conversion, miracles, being born again, reading the bible from cover to cover many times over, and most importantly accepting Jesus as my personal Savior, loving him with all my heart, and doing my best to follow his example.
Yet despite all of that, honest inquiry eventually led me away from everything I held most sacred. [/quote]
I am sorry about that. I hope you’re not saying I have not done honest inquiry, are you?
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Has anyone been converted yet?[/quote]
Well Catholics aren’t ones to try and convert anyone, so your commit is ad hominem. Thanks for playing.[/quote]
Convert has more than a religious meaning, brother.
If you are posting at all you are looking for a convert.
Or cracking a one-liner.
And mine was better than yours. ;)[/quote]
I don’t convert shit. Sorry, not my responsibility. By the way, charity works better for conversion than debate.
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
this seemed to get skipped -
Does the bible say Humans were here from the start of “time”? (everything was created in the first 7 days or whatever)…Are dinosaurs mentioned in the bible, and if so/or not why are there no human records as old as dinosaurs?
Or go one further - knowing we evolved from apes, most likely through a Darwinian natural selection type deal - how do you explain the obvious, that Humans weren’t one of the first entities to be created?[/quote]
Who are you talking to in particular? The Protestants or the Catholics?
[quote]forlife wrote:
The scripture you sighted on illumination is a classic example. Lucifer was the Son of the Morning, an angel of god who was clearly enlightened, yet he fell.
Why is it important to you to believe that you can’t fall away?
No offense, but it strikes me as a copout when people talk like this. I remember one guy telling me that because he had been born again, he could commit any offense for the rest of his life, including murder, and still be saved.[/quote]
Makes zero sense. Love how folks ignore mortal sin.
[quote]kamui wrote:
i had basically the same experience, except i was 9 years old.
my father was a agnostic from protestant origin, but i was raised a catholic, because it was really important for my mother and my (very devout) grandmother.
i was baptized (my godfather is a priest) and i attended cathechism many years during childhood.
my first doubts and questions came very early.
It was not because of the influence of my father (we discussed about this topic only years after) but because i was exposed to pagan influences : Homer, Gilgamesh, the nordic Sagas, Plato, etc.
my mind opened to other options : different Gods, multiple Gods, no God at all.
the day of my first communion i confessed myself and told to the priest i was not sure what i believed, and i was not sure i really had the “right” to participate.
the priest’s answer was something like : “don’t worry, ask Him and He will answer”
I did it, or at least i tried.
I attended cathechism 5 more years after that.
the first 2 years because i hoped to find an answer.
the last 3 years because i find catechism interresting even if i had become an atheist.
[/quote]
Catechism is about as useful to growing spiritually, as reading Starting Strength.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Fletch, I had the same experience. Our senior church leader refused to even look at my research or to address my actual concerns, other than telling me to pray about it.
BTW, the bible does say it’s possible for people to be enlightened by the Spirit, and fall away after. Some churches wink at that part. [/quote]
That’s sad. For both you and Fletch. Any church leader worth his salt, of any denomination or religion, should welcome scrutiny, investigation, even doubt of his religion. My priest back in America is a personal mentor and friend, and I have more than once expressed my own fears, misgivings, and struggles to marry what I think I know to be real with what the Church teaches. In every case, he has said that this is a very healthy spiritual process, and is, indeed, necessary to mature in one’s faith.
Calling it a “crisis of faith” betrays a profound incertitude in one’s beliefs. A leader of a philosophy should be able to muster more of an answer than this. [/quote]
Glad I have a spiritual director, not someone that says, “Pray about it.” What a cop out, or my favorite, “It’s a mystery we’ll have to wait for until we get to Heaven.” Really, because it took me 45 seconds to find the answer when I got home and searched google.
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
this seemed to get skipped -
Does the bible say Humans were here from the start of “time”? (everything was created in the first 7 days or whatever)…Are dinosaurs mentioned in the bible, and if so/or not why are there no human records as old as dinosaurs?
Or go one further - knowing we evolved from apes, most likely through a Darwinian natural selection type deal - how do you explain the obvious, that Humans weren’t one of the first entities to be created?[/quote]
Catholics don’t worry about that kind of crap. We are perfectly comfortable with scientific knowledge, and indeed welcome it.
Repeat: That kind of Biblical literalism is NOT to be found in the Catholic Church.
[/quote]
with all due respect
What do mean?
Do you not believe that god created humans?
And, literalism? so you read between the lines and come upon your own interpretation?
[/quote]
No, the Catholic Church does not dictate, or rather says you can believe in either evolution or creationism.
In both instances God created everything. I think it should be shown that literalism as Cortes uses it is what fundamentalist do. Catholics are in fact the literalistic cult. We know the literal meaning or truth of what the word says, whether that be it comes out in metaphor or a “literal” fact orientated passage.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
this seemed to get skipped -
Does the bible say Humans were here from the start of “time”? (everything was created in the first 7 days or whatever)…Are dinosaurs mentioned in the bible, and if so/or not why are there no human records as old as dinosaurs?
Or go one further - knowing we evolved from apes, most likely through a Darwinian natural selection type deal - how do you explain the obvious, that Humans weren’t one of the first entities to be created?[/quote]
Catholics don’t worry about that kind of crap. We are perfectly comfortable with scientific knowledge, and indeed welcome it.
Repeat: That kind of Biblical literalism is NOT to be found in the Catholic Church.
[/quote]
with all due respect
What do mean?
Do you not believe that god created humans?
And, literalism? so you read between the lines and come upon your own interpretation?
[/quote]
No, the Catholic Church does not dictate, or rather says you can believe in either evolution or creationism.
In both instances God created everything. I think it should be shown that literalism as Cortes uses it is what fundamentalist do. Catholics are in fact the literalistic cult. We know the literal meaning or truth of what the word says, whether that be it comes out in metaphor or a “literal” fact orientated passage.[/quote]
But surely that cant be possible - the bible says he created everything and that humans started, as humans. And all this occurred at the start of “time” -
BUT we know humans evolved later in the piece. So, to combine the two is in complete opposition. ???
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Do you believe you possess free will?
[/quote]
…you’d have to define free will for me, but as a general answer: No, i do not…
[quote]forlife wrote:
Joab, to answer your question it was a process of stepping back to honestly consider the possibility that everything I had been taught to interpret as evidence for the existence of god (burning in the bosom, inspiration through prayer, miracles, etc.) might be explained as coming from natural sources. I had very deep, personal feelings of commitment, communication, and what I considered a real relationship with Christ, but honesty required me to admit many years later that this may have all come from within.
As a psychologist, I understood how our beliefs, emotions, and thoughts can be subliminally generated by the brain. None of my experiences had to come from a supernatural source. I realized that some of my most deeply cherished beliefs, which I knew to be true through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, were factually impossible once I did objective research on my faith. I won’t get into details on any of that here, except to say it was a very sincere process of documenting the best evidence I could find on both sides of the argument, and honestly considering the conclusions required by the evidence.
I also realized that people of different faiths can be equally sincere, equally convinced that god has spoken to them, equally born again, and equally accepting of Jesus as their Savior, yet their conclusions based on what god has told them contradict those of other faiths. Logically, it is impossible for them all to be correct, so it calls into question this whole process of inspiration and the conclusions we draw from that inspiration. I now believe those conclusions, however sincere, are derived from entirely natural processes and are not proof of the divine.
Not to say this disproves the possibility of god(s). It’s impossible to prove something doesn’t exist, so honesty requires admitting the possibility, however remote. However, lacking any reliable objective evidence, I think it is similarly dishonest to draw conclusions that something exists when in fact there is no real proof that it does. [/quote]
What I’m about to say is possibly sophomoric, and rather unsophisiticated. However, it is a possibility that people often don’t consider.
You mention that logically, people from different faiths can’t be right. I accept that. But in my mind, there is nothing stopping a god from conducting an experiment where he places a vareity of scriptures on earth, and then see what kind of shitstorm occurs, how people behave, relate and talk.
In my mind, it is far likelier that god doesn’t exactly care too much about the loss of life on earth. He just wants to see what happens when people steadfastly defend their faith.
Personally, if a god existed, I feel he’d be more impressed with people looking at faith critically, and he’d be quite happy with the people who reject scripture/god on the basis of a lack of evidence.
So long as they’ve thought long and hard about the problem, that is.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
The scripture you sighted on illumination is a classic example. Lucifer was the Son of the Morning, an angel of god who was clearly enlightened, yet he fell.
Why is it important to you to believe that you can’t fall away?
No offense, but it strikes me as a copout when people talk like this. I remember one guy telling me that because he had been born again, he could commit any offense for the rest of his life, including murder, and still be saved.[/quote]
Makes zero sense. Love how folks ignore mortal sin.[/quote]
Most people I know that accept this POV don’t take sin lightly. So his comment while logical corret, is not inline with scripture. If someone is saved there should be a “war” going on with in them. One that desires to do good at all cost, and one that desires to not do good. Sometimes to even be out right evil.
So I understand the complaint, but the argument has more depth than what that person described, as well as it doesn’t ignore the heavy burden of sin. Look at sermons like “sinners in the hands of an angry God” in no way does Edwards over look the heavy impact of sin.
The person that forlife cited has an over emphasis on the Grace aspect to the point that it seems reckless. He isn’t describing the heavy implications of what that actually means. He probably didn’t understand it either.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, you’re right that some people experience a happy feeling about something when they pray and interpret this as evidence for god. I think it goes a lot deeper than that, though. In my case, it was many years of daily communication with god, inspiration, deep spiritual conversion, miracles, being born again, reading the bible from cover to cover many times over, and most importantly accepting Jesus as my personal Savior, loving him with all my heart, and doing my best to follow his example.
Yet despite all of that, honest inquiry eventually led me away from everything I held most sacred. [/quote]
I am sorry about that. I hope you’re not saying I have not done honest inquiry, are you?[/quote]
Not at all. I was 100% sincere as a Christian, and truth was just as important to me then as it is now. My children are equally sincere, yet their views are appropriate to their stage in life and that is ok.
What I’m saying is that you should never stop pursuing truth, nor should you fear where it takes you. You might stay in your current belief system the rest of your life, or you might find it evolving over time. Either is ok as long as you’re sincere and relentless in knowing what really is true, based on what makes sense to you at the time.
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
this seemed to get skipped -
Does the bible say Humans were here from the start of “time”? (everything was created in the first 7 days or whatever)…Are dinosaurs mentioned in the bible, and if so/or not why are there no human records as old as dinosaurs?
Or go one further - knowing we evolved from apes, most likely through a Darwinian natural selection type deal - how do you explain the obvious, that Humans weren’t one of the first entities to be created?[/quote]
Catholics don’t worry about that kind of crap. We are perfectly comfortable with scientific knowledge, and indeed welcome it.
Repeat: That kind of Biblical literalism is NOT to be found in the Catholic Church.
[/quote]
with all due respect
What do mean?
Do you not believe that god created humans?
And, literalism? so you read between the lines and come upon your own interpretation?
[/quote]
No, the Catholic Church does not dictate, or rather says you can believe in either evolution or creationism.
In both instances God created everything. I think it should be shown that literalism as Cortes uses it is what fundamentalist do. Catholics are in fact the literalistic cult. We know the literal meaning or truth of what the word says, whether that be it comes out in metaphor or a “literal” fact orientated passage.[/quote]
But surely that cant be possible - the bible says he created everything and that humans started, as humans. And all this occurred at the start of “time” -
BUT we know humans evolved later in the piece. So, to combine the two is in complete opposition. ???
[/quote]
That’s not what it says and which creation story are you referring to? There are two in the bible.
Essentially the Bible says God created everything, basically. There is no conflict between cosmology and the bible.
You must look at contexts. You start talking about one denominational stalagmites boson particles, etc. to a bunch of farmers, sheep herders and slaves, primarily uneducated, and they won’t know what the hell you were talking about. You say “God created the heavens and the Earth” that is a little easier to get. This book was written 5 to 7 thousand years ago.
There is no conflict here. Any such conflict is imagined.
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
this seemed to get skipped -
Does the bible say Humans were here from the start of “time”? (everything was created in the first 7 days or whatever)…Are dinosaurs mentioned in the bible, and if so/or not why are there no human records as old as dinosaurs?
Or go one further - knowing we evolved from apes, most likely through a Darwinian natural selection type deal - how do you explain the obvious, that Humans weren’t one of the first entities to be created?[/quote]
Catholics don’t worry about that kind of crap. We are perfectly comfortable with scientific knowledge, and indeed welcome it.
Repeat: That kind of Biblical literalism is NOT to be found in the Catholic Church.
[/quote]
with all due respect
What do mean?
Do you not believe that god created humans?
And, literalism? so you read between the lines and come upon your own interpretation?
[/quote]
The Catholic Church accepts the theory of evolution. There need be no conflict between our belief that God created humans (along with everything else) and the theory of evolution.
To your second sentence, the Bible is a book of truth, not scientific facts. It was never meant to be a farmer’s almanac. No, I do not come up with my own interpretation.
The only true God is Cthulhu
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Do you believe you possess free will?
[/quote]
…you’d have to define free will for me, but as a general answer: No, i do not…
[/quote]
Oh boy, you’re no fun.
Yeah, free will, as in, we are independently able to direct and determine the choices we make and the results we will receive in life. These choices are of course influenced, but not ultimately determined, by physical, environmental, cultural, and perhaps, divine forces.
Any problems with this?
Cortes, you said the Catholic church encourages sincere fact-based inquiry. I’m curious how far that tolerance extends? My own church claimed the same, but what they really meant was that everyone should pursue truth, but they are only doing it correctly if they arrive at the same conclusions shared by the church.
What if the sincere pursuit of truth leads someone out of the Catholic church and indeed away from the belief in a god?