At Least 21 Killed at V. Tech

[quote]Professor X wrote:

The rest of the problem is the lack of communication on that campus (and all campuses for that matter) when a tragedy occurs. Hopefully, this will lead to changes nationwide.[/quote]

I don’t think communication was the issue here. I was under the impression that the university CHOSE not to close down the school… Instead they just sent out an e-mail at 9:30ish saying that a shooting had taken place.

And frankly, can you really blame the university for not shutting down the school? With all these politics these days… Consider a few days from now: A shooting happens a few blocks from campus, maybe even in downtown of any city. Should the nearby colleges and universities all close?

Judgement calls need to be made, unfortunately it was unlucky, but you can’t go around shutting down every public institution in fear that if you don’t the press and public will be all over you.

[quote]obatiger11 wrote:
HELL YES, I AM SERIOUS!!! Hey, no doubt we live in the greatest country with the greatest oppurtunities,
[/quote]

haha, good one.

[quote]Contach wrote:
Professor X wrote:

The rest of the problem is the lack of communication on that campus (and all campuses for that matter) when a tragedy occurs. Hopefully, this will lead to changes nationwide.

I don’t think communication was the issue here. I was under the impression that the university CHOSE not to close down the school… Instead they just sent out an e-mail at 9:30ish saying that a shooting had taken place.

And frankly, can you really blame the university for not shutting down the school? With all these politics these days… Consider a few days from now: A shooting happens a few blocks from campus, maybe even in downtown of any city. Should the nearby colleges and universities all close?

Judgement calls need to be made, unfortunately it was unlucky, but you can’t go around shutting down every public institution in fear that if you don’t the press and public will be all over you.[/quote]

Boston closes down an entire city because someone posts images of Aqua Teen Hunger Force on buildings but a school can’t close the fuck down when a shooting occurs and two people are dead with the gunman on the loose?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Contach wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Boston closes down an entire city because someone posts images of Aqua Teen Hunger Force on buildings but a school can’t close the fuck down when a shooting occurs and two people are dead with the gunman on the loose?[/quote]

yeah, my point exactly. In our eyes we see it as a ridiculous decision for Boston to have closed down because of that, and at the time its very hard to make the judgment. And for this reason I don’t think its fair to criticize the decisions of the people in this dialectical position. If something had blown up in Boston I bet you would have taken another example to use.

Also, what if the 7:00am shootings at Virginia Tech were not followed by the 9:30 shootings and it had closed down after the 7:00ams. Then once again criticism would run wild. Its a lose-lose situation for decision-makers. With this in mind, I think we shouldn’t attack them.

For those of you interested, I just got word from Korea that they are sending delegates to Virginia. Cities all over Korea are holding vigils for the deceased and that Chejudo island residents set out lantern boats for each of the deceased students.

Friends there are saying that they are embarrassed by what happened and that they are angry at the shooter. They say that those living there hope that the random acts of violence by one person will not hurt the image of the entire nation.

Not ALL foreign countries hate the U.S. Don’t be brainwashed by the liberal mass media. My prayers go out to the victims as well as the shooter’s parents. I wouldn’t be surprised if they committed suicide out of shame but please remember to keep them in your prayers.

[quote]Contach wrote:
AdamC wrote:
JD430 wrote:

All I can say is try to be safe. If you are fortunate to live in a state that allows you to carry a firearm and you can handle the responsibility, please do so.
You may save many lives one day. Stay in shape. Be vigilant. Think about violent incidents like this from time to time and try to resolve yourself to acting if you are ever thrust in the middle of one.

There is nothing more that any of us can do.

Good post

WTF is this? “Be Vigilant.” is your advice? Fight fire with fire? Some random person has a gun and holds within himself the possibility of shooting another and this gives you justification to be able to carry a gun? So now if everyone around you is carrying a gun, does this give you justification to carry a bazooka? Because, you know, what happens when 2 of them possibly turn on the world and start firing: one gun will not help you…

You’re right. "There is nothing more that any (ONE) of us can do. " But, there are plenty of things that collectively, you people as citizens of the U.S.A. CAN do. Passive attitudes and increasing violence will not do anything, but social movements will: if not for you, atleast god will have mercy on your children. [/quote]

The advice was be vigilant instead of oblivious to your surroundings. Be prepared to fight and live…then to die.

One man taking action, who know’s what he is doing, and is prepared to act…ends situations like this. No time for a “social movement” when someone is trying to kill you.

Hope your never in that position to test your theory. Many people have taken advice like JD gave and lived.

I think it’s time we bomb Korea.

Its not anybodys fault except the shooter himself.

Fuck him, and I hope hes rotting in hell.

[quote]archiewhittaker wrote:
Jetric9 wrote:
I just finished reading a play that was written by the shooter:

I can now understand why he was labeled as a troubled person.

jet

A fine piece of literature. [/quote]

Yeah, that english major was clearly serving him well…

[quote]RatHunter wrote:
I think it’s time we bomb Korea.[/quote]

North, or South?

Also, what’s that have to do with this shooting?

If I went crazy and killed people, would you want to bomb Italy, Poland, England, Ireland, Germany, France, and the Native Americans (my nationalities)?

The ignorance that follows tragedies like this are astounding to me.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
david dunne wrote:

And there is the obligatory “it’s all a cop conspiracy” post from x…

Dumbass. If you needed it spelled out for you, simply ask. I was blaming THE SCHOOL for trying to play down a murder, not cops. How about reading what was written in the future instead of “reading into it”.[/quote]

My bad.
There is the obligatory “it’s all a conspiracy” post from x…

[quote]Contach wrote:
AdamC wrote:
JD430 wrote:

All I can say is try to be safe. If you are fortunate to live in a state that allows you to carry a firearm and you can handle the responsibility, please do so.
You may save many lives one day. Stay in shape. Be vigilant. Think about violent incidents like this from time to time and try to resolve yourself to acting if you are ever thrust in the middle of one.

There is nothing more that any of us can do.

Good post

WTF is this? “Be Vigilant.” is your advice? Fight fire with fire? Some random person has a gun and holds within himself the possibility of shooting another and this gives you justification to be able to carry a gun? So now if everyone around you is carrying a gun, does this give you justification to carry a bazooka? Because, you know, what happens when 2 of them possibly turn on the world and start firing: one gun will not help you…

You’re right. "There is nothing more that any (ONE) of us can do. " But, there are plenty of things that collectively, you people as citizens of the U.S.A. CAN do. Passive attitudes and increasing violence will not do anything, but social movements will: if not for you, atleast god will have mercy on your children. [/quote]

Ugh yeah this is why i carry a gun. I’ve been highly trained at my own expense and have qualified at a level higher than a police officer. I’ve been trained on how to spot trouble and so.

And I’m not the only one like this. I can name at least ten law abing citizens that do the same. primarily because we know that the cops can’t be everywhere and protect everyone at all times.

While you are worrying about collective problems in society and don’t solve any of them, I’ll protect myself and my family, thank you.

[quote]Taquito wrote:
It’s kind of sad that any tragedy gets used and abused to help a special interest group.

While I vehemently support looser gun laws, I fully support Virginia Techs right to deny firearms on their campus. It is not legally required to go to a college. You’re allowed to waive most of your constitutional rights if you so decide. Private businesses should be allowed to decide what their clients can and cannot do. *I don’t know what the penalty is for carrying a firearm on campus when not a student, but I don’t think it should be anymore than trespassing.

While it’s a terrible thing that happened it’s odd how 30 US kids gets this reaction, but a mass killing in africa, asia, or eastern europe doesn’t get to much attention.
“The death of one is a tragedy. The death of a million is just a statistic.”[/quote]

There were most liklely more people killed in traffic the same day, but the media likes to focus on big wows than what really is doing us in, primarily do to the entertainment aspect of the news.

Cars, ciggies, being fat are more likely to kill you than a mass shooting, airplane crash or west nile virus. These things are however way cooler and therefore draw more attention.

I work in a small town in Pa. after the 01 trade center disaster there was some anthrax scares around the country. I actually heard people worrying that this town of five thousand might be next. Yeah , right. we’re about 678,956 th on Al Qeada’s hit list.

Now, i know a crazy person can go off anywhere, but the odds of the average guy experiencing it is a lot lower than getting killed by a teenage girl yapping on the cell phone while running a red light in a Dodge Neon.

What concerns me about this whole situation was the two hour gap from the first shootings to the later shootings. why wasn’t something done in this time.

[quote]Contach wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Contach wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Boston closes down an entire city because someone posts images of Aqua Teen Hunger Force on buildings but a school can’t close the fuck down when a shooting occurs and two people are dead with the gunman on the loose?

yeah, my point exactly. In our eyes we see it as a ridiculous decision for Boston to have closed down because of that, and at the time its very hard to make the judgment. And for this reason I don’t think its fair to criticize the decisions of the people in this dialectical position. If something had blown up in Boston I bet you would have taken another example to use.

Also, what if the 7:00am shootings at Virginia Tech were not followed by the 9:30 shootings and it had closed down after the 7:00ams. Then once again criticism would run wild. Its a lose-lose situation for decision-makers. With this in mind, I think we shouldn’t attack them.
[/quote]

Good post.
I agree with the logic. It’s easy (and very popular with some) to second guess the hell out of a situation AFTER it has played out.

Another difference I see is that Boston had these weird blinking signs all over the city so it would be rational to think that IF there is a threat it could involve the whole city.

The first shooting involved a female student and a male student who apparently tried to intervene. No shots fired at anyone else, no running into another campus building, no shots fired randomly in the building or at the campus either. He shot those two individuals and fled the scene.

Only the second guessing champions out here could “KNOW” this was going to turn into the worst mass murder in US history.

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Ugh yeah this is why I carry a gun. I’ve been highly trained at my own expense and have qualified at a level higher than a police officer. I’ve been trained on how to spot trouble and so.

And I’m not the only one like this. I can name at least ten law abiding citizens that do the same. primarily because we know that the cops can’t be everywhere and protect everyone at all times.

While you are worrying about collective problems in society and don’t solve any of them, I’ll protect myself and my family, thank you.[/quote]

Now that is a voice of clarity. Amen, brother.

I’m a high school teacher and we are ramping up our security here somewhat. However, I refuse to strip-search any of my students.
:smiley:

for those wondering where the immigration issue came from, early on in the day some places were reporting that the killer was a chinese national here on a student visa. This caused the obligatory “evil foreigners”, “1 more reason to have less student visas”, blah blah racism stupid hatred that ignorant people love to spew.

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/

Scroll down a bit and you can see her talk about the killer possibly being a Chinese National.

An excellent op-ed in the WSJ on “gun-free zones” by Dave Kopel.

It occurs to me that “gun-free zones” that aren’t security compounds like airports or federal courthouses are the worst possible idea in a society in which it’s relatively easy for a person to obtain a gun, legally or illegally.

Here’s the op-ed:

[i]‘Gun-Free Zones’
By DAVID B. KOPEL
April 18, 2007; Page A17

The bucolic campus of Virginia Tech, in Blacksburg, Va., would seem to have little in common with the Trolley Square shopping mall in Salt Lake City. Yet both share an important characteristic, common to the site of almost every other notorious mass murder in recent years: They are “gun-free zones.”

Forty American states now have “shall issue” or similar laws, by which officials issue a pistol carry permit upon request to any adult who passes a background check and (in most states) a safety class. Research by Carlisle Moody of the College of William and Mary, and others, suggests that these laws provide law-abiding citizens some protection against violent crime.

But in many states there are certain places, especially schools, set aside as off-limits for guns. In Virginia, universities aren’t “gun-free zones” by statute, but college officials are allowed to impose anti-gun rules. The result is that mass murderers know where they can commit their crimes.

Private property owners also have the right to prohibit lawful gun possession. And some shopping malls have adopted anti-gun rules. Trolley Square was one, as announced by an unequivocal sign, “No weapons allowed on Trolley Square property.”

In February of this year a young man walked past the sign prohibiting him from carrying a gun on the premises and began shooting people who moments earlier were leisurely shopping at Trolley Square. He killed five.

Fortunately, someone else – off-duty Ogden, Utah, police officer Kenneth Hammond – also did not comply with the mall’s rules. After hearing “popping” sounds, Mr. Hammond investigated and immediately opened fire on the gunman. With his aggressive response, Mr. Hammond prevented other innocent bystanders from getting hurt.

He bought time for the local police to respond, while stopping the gunman from hunting down other victims.

At Virginia Tech’s sprawling campus in southwestern Va., the local police arrived at the engineering building a few minutes after the start of the murder spree, and after a few critical minutes, broke through the doors that Cho Seung-Hui had apparently chained shut.

From what we know now, Cho committed suicide when he realized he’d soon be confronted by the police. But by then, 30 people had been murdered.

But let’s take a step back in time. Last year the Virginia legislature defeated a bill that would have ended the “gun-free zones” in Virginia’s public universities. At the time, a Virginia Tech associate vice president praised the General Assembly’s action “because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.” In an August 2006 editorial for the Roanoke Times, he declared: “Guns don’t belong in classrooms. They never will. Virginia Tech has a very sound policy preventing same.”

Actually, Virginia Tech’s policy only made the killer safer, for it was only the law-abiding victims, and not the criminal, who were prevented from having guns. Virginia Tech’s policy bans all guns on campus (except for police and the university’s own security guards); even faculty members are prohibited from keeping guns in their cars.

Virginia Tech thus went out of its way to prevent what happened at a Pearl, Miss., high school in 1997, where assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieved a handgun from his car and apprehended a school shooter.

Or what happened at Appalachian Law School, in Grundy, Va., in 2002, when a mass murder was stopped by two students with law-enforcement experience, one of whom retrieved his own gun from his vehicle. Or in Edinboro, Pa., a few days after the Pearl event, when a school attack ended after a nearby merchant used a shotgun to force the attacker to desist.

Law-abiding citizens routinely defend themselves with firearms. Annually, Americans drive-off home invaders a half-million times, according to a 1997 study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

In Utah, there is no “gun-free schools” exception to the licensed carry law. In K-12 schools and in universities, teachers and other adults can and do legally carry concealed guns. In Utah, there has never been a Columbine-style attack on a school.

Nor has there been any of the incidents predicted by self-defense opponents – such as a teacher drawing a gun on a disrespectful student, or a student stealing a teacher’s gun.

Israel uses armed teachers as part of a successful program to deter terrorist attacks on schools. Buddhist teachers in southern Thailand are following the Israeli example, because of Islamist terrorism.

After the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the U.S., long-time gun control advocates, including Sen. Barbara Boxer (D., Calif.), agreed that making airplane cockpits into “gun-free zones” had made airplanes much more dangerous for everyone except hijackers.

Corrective legislation, supported by large bipartisan majorities in both houses of Congress, allowed pilots to carry firearms, while imposing rigorous gun-safety training on pilots who want to carry.

In many states, “gun-free schools” legislation was enacted hastily in the late 1980s or early 1990s due to concerns about juvenile crime. Aimed at juvenile gangsters, the poorly written and overbroad statutes had the disastrous consequence of rendering teachers unable to protect their students.

Reasonable advocates of gun control can still press for a wide variety of items on their agenda, while helping to reform the “gun-free zones” that have become attractive havens for mass killers. If legislators or administrators want to require extensive additional training for armed faculty and other adults, that’s fine. Better that some victims be armed than none at all.

The founder of the University of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson, understood the harms resulting from the type of policy created at Virginia Tech. In his “Commonplace Book,” Jefferson copied a passage from Cesare Beccaria, the founder of criminology, which was as true on Monday as it always has been:

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

Mr. Kopel is research director of the Independence Institute in Golden, Colo., and co-author of the law school textbook, “Gun Control and Gun Rights” (NYU Press).[/i]

And here is an op-ed from a graduate student from Va. Tech who could have been an unlucky victim:

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/80510

[i]Unarmed and vulnerable

Bradford B. Wiles

Wiles, of New Castle, is a graduate student at Virginia Tech.

On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m., my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: “You need to get out of the building.”

Upon exiting the classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles and pump shotguns, and policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.

It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.

Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech’s student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.

I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out.

First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.

Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.

Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech’s campus.

Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.

That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself.

I would also like to point out that when I mentioned to a professor that I would feel safer with my gun, this is what she said to me, “I would feel safer if you had your gun.”

The policy that forbids students who are legally licensed to carry in Virginia needs to be changed.

I am qualified and capable of carrying a concealed handgun and urge you to work with me to allow my most basic right of self-defense, and eliminate my entrusting my safety and the safety of my classmates to the government.

This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.[/i]

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
And here is an op-ed from a graduate student from Va. Tech who could have been an unlucky victim:

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/80510

[i]Unarmed and vulnerable

Bradford B. Wiles

Wiles, of New Castle, is a graduate student at Virginia Tech.

On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m., my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: “You need to get out of the building.”

Upon exiting the classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles and pump shotguns, and policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.

It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.

Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech’s student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.

I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out.

First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.

Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.

Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech’s campus.

Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.

That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself.

I would also like to point out that when I mentioned to a professor that I would feel safer with my gun, this is what she said to me, “I would feel safer if you had your gun.”

The policy that forbids students who are legally licensed to carry in Virginia needs to be changed.

I am qualified and capable of carrying a concealed handgun and urge you to work with me to allow my most basic right of self-defense, and eliminate my entrusting my safety and the safety of my classmates to the government.

This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.[/i][/quote]

I totally agree with him. It’s obvious that Vt and the local security and police weren’t up to it.