At Least 21 Killed at V. Tech

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]david dunne wrote:
Did NYC just evacuate 10 square blocks for shootings that happened last night? Philadelphia maybe?

[/quote]

No, and they didn’t evacuate a building when a plane crashed into it either.

Ummmmm how hard is is to station people at the entrances and turn people away? With 7,000 employees I would gander they could spare 50 or so and position them at various parts of the campus.

For the students in school…how hard is it to pull fire alarms and evacuate buildings and make an announcement that classes are over? There are intercoms, phone systems, campus wide alarms, etc. There are countless ways to notify students.

Yet they chose EMAIL, over 2 hours after the first murders… If “email” was the “best” way, how the hell were those “11,000” students “driving in” supposed to get the email? They weren’t so you notify them when they reach campus BEFORE they have a chance to enter the school grounds.

A murder took place on a COLLEGE CAMPUS. Seems you continually compare a college campus to a city so stop that. The killer was not in custody. Someone somewhere decided that “Hey, the killer is gone. There’s no danger to the rest of the people on campus.”

102

just a quote from tv yesterday pretty much sums it all up in this time of tragedy. “This is a tragedy in American history. So for today, forget any and all your college affiliations. For today, we are all HOKIES” -CNN

103

Think about it, if the killer had to go to great lengths to get a gun because guns were protected, he may have had time to calm his emotions and may not have done the crime.

104

[quote]PGA wrote:
That’s right, lets just assume he or she left and no longer poses a threat.

How the fuck do you assume that the killer just left? That’s beyond ridiculous.[/quote]

I didn’t see any official claiming they believed the shooter “no longer posed a threat” after the first shooting pga.

Thats just your hysterical screeching again I guess.

In fact they were working an active murder investigation. And then only 2 hours after the initial shot is fired at one part of the 2,600 acre campus - another shooting in progress is reported and the cops responded immediately to that scene.

105

[quote]PGA wrote:
david dunne wrote:
Did NYC just evacuate 10 square blocks for shootings that happened last night? Philadelphia maybe?

No, and they didn’t evacuate a building when a plane crashed into it either.

Ummmmm how hard is is to station people at the entrances and turn people away? With 7,000 employees I would gander they could spare 50 or so and position them at various parts of the campus.

For the students in school…how hard is it to pull fire alarms and evacuate buildings and make an announcement that classes are over? There are intercoms, phone systems, campus wide alarms, etc. There are countless ways to notify students.

Yet they chose EMAIL, over 2 hours after the first murders… If “email” was the “best” way, how the hell were those “11,000” students “driving in” supposed to get the email? They weren’t so you notify them when they reach campus BEFORE they have a chance to enter the school grounds.

A murder took place on a COLLEGE CAMPUS. Seems you continually compare a college campus to a city so stop that. The killer was not in custody. Someone somewhere decided that “Hey, the killer is gone. There’s no danger to the rest of the people on campus.”[/quote]

Ok I will try to see the difference between a 2,600 acre complex of buildings and residences for 25,000 people as something different than a small city.

If this was a sniper attack I think you would have a point.

But it wasn’t. It was an unknown who shot two people with a handgun in a dorm. The residents told police there had been rumors of the female victim having arguments with her boyfriend. So the cops knew that information.

If it was a situation where the shooter offed two people and then witnesses saw him flee into some campus area or building - then you would have a point.

But that isn’t what the reports are saying.

I simply don’t see the logic in claiming the entire campus/city should be evacuated or locked down because a murder took place.

What if the murder was 1 block off campus with student victims?
Whats the call then?
Evacuate the town?
Evacuate the campus?
For a couple hours?
For a few days?

Unrealistic.

106

Jack Asshole Thompson blaming it on video games once again…

107

[quote]david dunne wrote:
PGA wrote:
That’s right, lets just assume he or she left and no longer poses a threat.

How the fuck do you assume that the killer just left? That’s beyond ridiculous.

I didn’t see any official claiming they believed the shooter “no longer posed a threat” after the first shooting pga.

Thats just your hysterical screeching again I guess.

In fact they were working an active murder investigation. And then only 2 hours after the initial shot is fired at one part of the 2,600 acre campus - another shooting in progress is reported and the cops responded immediately to that scene.[/quote]

They said they thought he fled.

ONCE AGAIN I haven’t mentioned cops once. I think this has much more to do with campus officials not wanting to create a “scene” than cops dragging their feet.

From what I’ve read and heard so far the cops did their jobs with the second shooting. Shots were fired and they attempted to make their way in immediately. If that’s how that happened there isn’t anything they could have done.

108

[quote]orion wrote:
If logic dictates otherwise, why do these shootings never happen at gun shows?

jsbrook wrote:
Because lunatic, anti-social misfit teenagers typically don’t attend gunshows. They do attend high school and college can easily kill 20 people before the small percentage of those who would actually carry guns–amidst the vast majority who don’t–would attempt to respond and contain the lunatic, killing more people in the process.[/quote]

Actually, anti-social misfit teens/young adults also go to other heavily populated places like malls, grocery stores, movie theaters, parks, etc. Yet most of this violent behavior seems to be confined to “gun free” zones like schools and colleges. Is this a coincidence or a conscious choice on their part?

By choosing schools and colleges instead of malls and theaters they avoid a confrontation with people (like me) who are capable of defending themselves and others around them.

There is no need to fear a cross fire between an armed lawful citizen and a violent criminal. Just use the diversion as an opportunity to escape while the lawful citizen engages and destroys the killer.

It would be a nice gesture to attend any ceremonies where the heroic lawful citizen is formally recognized. Also, be sure to thank him/her for doing what few others were willing to do in the face of danger.

109

yeah, as a cop that’s just we want, thousands of students, any one of whom could be the shooter, running around a campus in hysteria because somebody freaks out and yells about a murder on the loose over a loud speaker.

And to the poster who reported about the police hiding behind trees and checking the students…They were probably assigned to that position and told to check anyone leaving the building.

Meanwhile, if you took the time to check it out, there was a team of police officers in the building immediately after it was reported who followed the shots to the second floor just as he shot himself.

The officers on the outside set up a perimeter and attempt to contain the suspect. And yes, you check each and every person who leaves that area so that you don’t miss the suspect.

110

[quote]david dunne wrote:
What if the murder was 1 block off campus with student victims?
Whats the call then?
Evacuate the town?
Evacuate the campus?
For a couple hours?
For a few days?

Unrealistic.

[/quote]

Again…this happened ON a COLLEGE CAMPUS in a COLLEGE DORM and in a COLLEGE CLASSROOM. This wasn’t on the outskirts of the college involving non-students. This happened to COLLEGE KIDS on a COLLEGE CAMPUS.

People were murdered on campus and the killer was on the loose. Seems perfectly logical to alert people via email that they may not get for hours or days or ever…

111

[quote]superscience wrote:
Think about it, if the killer had to go to great lengths to get a gun because guns were protected, he may have had time to calm his emotions and may not have done the crime.
[/quote]

Excellent point, it’s definitely time to enact a full prohibition on firearms in the US. Best to strike while the iron is hot.

Americans are ready to reconsider the whole “Bill of Rights” thing these days, so we should jump on this chance to choke out the 2nd Amendment. After that, we can use this Imus uproar as a great excuse to go ahead and do away with the First as well.

Once people know that Rights are in fact gifts of a benevolent Government, we will be able to successfully bring these “behavioral abberrations” under control.

In this instance, we’re just lucky all the students obediently observed the “No Guns on Campus” zero-tolerance policy, otherwise this could have turned into a truly tragic and unneccessary bloodbath.

112

he purchased the gun in march is what the news is reporting from a reciept found in his centervile, va apartment (i think thats where they found the reciept).

113

Part of what makes these things tragedies is that the vast majority of those involved occupy a mental space that can best be described as “sane.” Therefore when someone who lives in an “insane” space comes along and starts firing no one expects and or knows just what in the hell is going on or how to best react (do we alert students or do we believe the situation is contained?) because they simply can’t fathom the reality of the situation.

What I find hardest to believe is the fact that some students knew about the first incidents and still PROCEEDED TO GO TO CLASS. Now put aside the issue of whether or not they were reassured that everything was safe, the second I hear that something that may put my life in jeopardy has occurred in a close proximity to me I AM OUT OF THERE.

Bottom line is this is awful and things happened the way they did, anyone who is complaining about the way things went down needs to take a deep breath and realize how lucky they are to have the gift of life.

114

I found a pretty good list of school shootings in the past 2 or 3 decades from a Canadian website:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/school-shootings/

Look at how many took place outside the United States…many in recent times were in Canada, with all of her gun control methods.

Its a shame that less enlightened people immediately jump to make political points out of a situation like this.

Everyone has a pet theory why these things happen. Ultimately, everything boils down to human psychology. Rampage killers, especially in the school environment, follow very similar patterns.

If you are interested, Col. Dave Grossman lays out much of the common traits in his books and articles on his website. As a law enforcement officer, I can also tell you that his work is very influential in our business.

Part of our misperception of these incidents is that they are an “American” problem. This lends itself to the “guns caused this” crap because we are one of the last somewhat free peoples on earth, and as such enjoy some of the more liberal gun regulations on the planet.

A good example is the sarin gas attacks in Japan’s subways a few years ago. Japan has some of the most restrictive gun laws in existence. That didnt stop a couple of disturbed, evil people from finding a way to kill a lot of innocents.

9-11 happened with out one bullet being fired or even a single gun being produced. These incidents happen all of the world. Massacres are as common a part of life in the 3rd world as is starvation and disease. We just rarely hear about them because of a lack of media presence. The United States dominates the world media,
and incidents in our country are broadcast loud, clear and often.

The flip side of thinking that taking guns away from the populace would prevent
future massacres is the belief that more armed, decent citizens could prevent violence from spreading as massively as it did yesterday.

The police can’t get there fast enough.
We have started to realize this more and more. While we have adapted our tactics as best we can(more lessons will come out of yesterday’s shooting), we are always behind the bad guy’s thought curve.

If a lone, motivated nut decides to pack a duffel bag with pipe bombs, or guns or poison gas, he is going to do a lot of damage…barring a miracle that has him getting intercepted before he starts. There is no way to completely protect our malls, schools and public spaces from these type of events. If it were possible, I doubt many of you would want to live in such a world, as individuality and freedom would be forgotten concepts.

Guns aren’t the only scapegoats. The finger will be pointed at rap music, video games, mixed martial arts, and violent movies. While there can certainly be vile aspects to some of those examples, the end result of violence is 1000 times more dependent on the receiver’s state of mind and personal history.

All I can say is try to be safe. If you are fortunate to live in a state that allows you to carry a firearm and you can handle the responsibility, please do so.
You may save many lives one day. Stay in shape. Be vigilant. Think about violent incidents like this from time to time and try to resolve yourself to acting if you are ever thrust in the middle of one.

There is nothing more that any of us can do.

115

I’m not sure of the ages and how familiar everyone is with colleges, but being a current student in a pretty large(28,000 undergrad) school I think I should share a little more. When the local transportation system breaks down we are notified pretty fast, within minutes.

I think they could do the same for a shooting. There are ways to get in contact with entire buildings through their information desks and make quick announcements about things. I could probably notify half the campus myself just by looking at numbers on the school website. The president or whoever could have done the same.

If someone felt it was needed they could have called each building on campus and had them pull the fire alarm and give instructions pretty fast. Or at least informed the students and let them make a decision as to whether they felt comfortable sitting in their class knowing one of their peers/friends was just murdered.

116

I did research earlier this semester on school, or near campus, shootings that weren’t gang related. I had 16 examples, one that happened recently on my own campus, and the underlying factor in 14 of them were the boys were pissed off at a female and targeted her.

I wondered if this guy followed that trend and lo and behold, this spree started because he wanted to kill his girlfriend. I don’t follow the news much but is this talked about at all or is it being blamed on something else?

117

[quote]JD430 wrote:
I found a pretty good list of school shootings in the past 2 or 3 decades from a Canadian website:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/school-shootings/

Look at how many took place outside the United States…many in recent times were in Canada, with all of her gun control methods.

Its a shame that less enlightened people immediately jump to make political points out of a situation like this.

Everyone has a pet theory why these things happen. Ultimately, everything boils down to human psychology. Rampage killers, especially in the school environment, follow very similar patterns.

If you are interested, Col. Dave Grossman lays out much of the common traits in his books and articles on his website. As a law enforcement officer, I can also tell you that his work is very influential in our business.

Part of our misperception of these incidents is that they are an “American” problem. This lends itself to the “guns caused this” crap because we are one of the last somewhat free peoples on earth, and as such enjoy some of the more liberal gun regulations on the planet.

A good example is the sarin gas attacks in Japan’s subways a few years ago. Japan has some of the most restrictive gun laws in existence. That didnt stop a couple of disturbed, evil people from finding a way to kill a lot of innocents.

9-11 happened with out one bullet being fired or even a single gun being produced. These incidents happen all of the world. Massacres are as common a part of life in the 3rd world as is starvation and disease. We just rarely hear about them because of a lack of media presence. The United States dominates the world media,
and incidents in our country are broadcast loud, clear and often.

The flip side of thinking that taking guns away from the populace would prevent
future massacres is the belief that more armed, decent citizens could prevent violence from spreading as massively as it did yesterday.

The police can’t get there fast enough.
We have started to realize this more and more. While we have adapted our tactics as best we can(more lessons will come out of yesterday’s shooting), we are always behind the bad guy’s thought curve.

If a lone, motivated nut decides to pack a duffel bag with pipe bombs, or guns or poison gas, he is going to do a lot of damage…barring a miracle that has him getting intercepted before he starts. There is no way to completely protect our malls, schools and public spaces from these type of events. If it were possible, I doubt many of you would want to live in such a world, as individuality and freedom would be forgotten concepts.

Guns aren’t the only scapegoats. The finger will be pointed at rap music, video games, mixed martial arts, and violent movies. While there can certainly be vile aspects to some of those examples, the end result of violence is 1000 times more dependent on the receiver’s state of mind and personal history.

All I can say is try to be safe. If you are fortunate to live in a state that allows you to carry a firearm and you can handle the responsibility, please do so.
You may save many lives one day. Stay in shape. Be vigilant. Think about violent incidents like this from time to time and try to resolve yourself to acting if you are ever thrust in the middle of one.

There is nothing more that any of us can do. [/quote]

Well said JD.

Nobody know what they would do in that situation…situational awareness can be fleeting and that type of experience comes at a high cost. Those that have those skills probably aren’t going to be present in a peaceful college environment.

I’m sure that college president never thought he would have to make those split second decisions, nor did the campus police. That’s a big burden to carry. A lot of kids died and they are always going to wonder what they could have done differently.

Stay in shape and be vigilant is the best advice many could take away from this sad event.

118

[quote]obatiger11 wrote:
archiewhittaker wrote:
obatiger11 wrote:

violent pleasantries

Do you know what impulsive means? Did you understand my post? I didn’t understand yours. What about color-TV??

Yes, I know what impulsive means, but I am not the type of impulsive person who would kill someone. Then read it again. [/quote]

Why did you bring up Manson like he was the source for the shootings? Manson knew what he was doing, he took drugs and consciously altered his mind-state to be able to kill, the VA kid did probably not. Which one of them deserve the kind of senseless torture you described?

119

[quote]JD430 wrote:
I found a pretty good list of school shootings in the past 2 or 3 decades from a Canadian website:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/school-shootings/

Look at how many took place outside the United States…many in recent times were in Canada, with all of her gun control methods.

Its a shame that less enlightened people immediately jump to make political points out of a situation like this.

Everyone has a pet theory why these things happen. Ultimately, everything boils down to human psychology. Rampage killers, especially in the school environment, follow very similar patterns.

If you are interested, Col. Dave Grossman lays out much of the common traits in his books and articles on his website. As a law enforcement officer, I can also tell you that his work is very influential in our business.

Part of our misperception of these incidents is that they are an “American” problem. This lends itself to the “guns caused this” crap because we are one of the last somewhat free peoples on earth, and as such enjoy some of the more liberal gun regulations on the planet.

A good example is the sarin gas attacks in Japan’s subways a few years ago. Japan has some of the most restrictive gun laws in existence. That didnt stop a couple of disturbed, evil people from finding a way to kill a lot of innocents.

9-11 happened with out one bullet being fired or even a single gun being produced. These incidents happen all of the world. Massacres are as common a part of life in the 3rd world as is starvation and disease. We just rarely hear about them because of a lack of media presence. The United States dominates the world media,
and incidents in our country are broadcast loud, clear and often.

The flip side of thinking that taking guns away from the populace would prevent
future massacres is the belief that more armed, decent citizens could prevent violence from spreading as massively as it did yesterday.

The police can’t get there fast enough.
We have started to realize this more and more. While we have adapted our tactics as best we can(more lessons will come out of yesterday’s shooting), we are always behind the bad guy’s thought curve.

If a lone, motivated nut decides to pack a duffel bag with pipe bombs, or guns or poison gas, he is going to do a lot of damage…barring a miracle that has him getting intercepted before he starts. There is no way to completely protect our malls, schools and public spaces from these type of events. If it were possible, I doubt many of you would want to live in such a world, as individuality and freedom would be forgotten concepts.

Guns aren’t the only scapegoats. The finger will be pointed at rap music, video games, mixed martial arts, and violent movies. While there can certainly be vile aspects to some of those examples, the end result of violence is 1000 times more dependent on the receiver’s state of mind and personal history.

All I can say is try to be safe. If you are fortunate to live in a state that allows you to carry a firearm and you can handle the responsibility, please do so.
You may save many lives one day. Stay in shape. Be vigilant. Think about violent incidents like this from time to time and try to resolve yourself to acting if you are ever thrust in the middle of one.

There is nothing more that any of us can do. [/quote]

Excellent post.

It truly is the responsibility of each of us to protect ourselves and our loved ones. While success is not always assured planning and diligence go a long way. It sure looks like the only person with a plan yesterday was the shooter.

120

I, too, am trying to figure out why this happens so much in America as opposed to other countries. Is that even true? Or is it the fact, as someone suggested already, that our society is so mediatized that we just THINK that it happens here more? I dont know.

One common theme seems to be that the people who do these type of mass campus murders are loner types, very alienated.

That seems to be the case with the guy at Virginia Tech.

But I think such loner individuals can be found in all industrialized societies. So why is it?

Is it that these people know that they can become instant media stars (even if they are dead)? Is there just something instrinsically more violent about American society (as suggested by such authors as Cormac McCarthy?