http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=5766041
Rose training the catcher in an ALL-STAR GAME. If I remember right this ended the catchers career.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Why should players get a pass just because they made things interesting? Is cheating not cheating anymore? [/quote]
Technically MLB banned steroids in 1991 but did not implement testing until 2003.
Is it cheating if you know the ruling body is not going to enforce the rule, or is it a justifiable defense to believe MLB was merely paying lip service to the public on the issue?
[/quote]
Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I see it as cheating. Whether testing occurred or not doesn’t matter to me.
If there is a rule to keep a level playing field and you break said rule to get an advantage over other, that is cheating to me. Whether the rule was lip service to the fans or not. [/quote]
If by “old-fashioned” you mean “unwilling to examine the context of the issue,” then yes, you are that.
Steroids were widely used in baseball in the 70s and 80s when they were not only NOT against baseball’s rules, but they were also perfectly legal. In an attempt at revisionist history, baseball now tries to pretend as if somehow its players were not using steroids when they were legal.
Even when baseball established a drug policy in 1991, it still allowed for players to be using steroids with a valid prescription. So that’s an interesting tidbit to stew on.
So, baseball allowed for the creation of a drug culture in its sport among its athletes, i.e. the creation of a level playing field. It then said, “You can’t do that! But we aren’t going to make sure you don’t do that.” And then it twiddled its thumbs while roided up sluggers made the game more exciting than it had ever been (or would be again).
So, if after absorbing all that you still want to live in a black/white world and act as if the “level playing field” didn’t exist, then fine. But it’s silly, IMO.
[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Why should players get a pass just because they made things interesting? Is cheating not cheating anymore? [/quote]
Technically MLB banned steroids in 1991 but did not implement testing until 2003.
Is it cheating if you know the ruling body is not going to enforce the rule, or is it a justifiable defense to believe MLB was merely paying lip service to the public on the issue?
[/quote]
Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I see it as cheating. Whether testing occurred or not doesn’t matter to me.
If there is a rule to keep a level playing field and you break said rule to get an advantage over other, that is cheating to me. Whether the rule was lip service to the fans or not. [/quote]
If by “old-fashioned” you mean “unwilling to examine the context of the issue,” then yes, you are that.
Steroids were widely used in baseball in the 70s and 80s when they were not only NOT against baseball’s rules, but they were also perfectly legal. In an attempt at revisionist history, baseball now tries to pretend as if somehow its players were not using steroids when they were legal.
Even when baseball established a drug policy in 1991, it still allowed for players to be using steroids with a valid prescription. So that’s an interesting tidbit to stew on.
So, baseball allowed for the creation of a drug culture in its sport among its athletes, i.e. the creation of a level playing field. It then said, “You can’t do that! But we aren’t going to make sure you don’t do that.” And then it twiddled its thumbs while roided up sluggers made the game more exciting than it had ever been (or would be again).
So, if after absorbing all that you still want to live in a black/white world and act as if the “level playing field” didn’t exist, then fine. But it’s silly, IMO.[/quote]
Lol, wow.
First off, I wouldn’t exactly call this an “issue”. We aren’t talking troop withdrawal here.
If you read my original post, you’ll see I have no problems at all with steroids. In fact they should just be legalized or the MLB should just stop testing.
All that said, once a rule is implemented and you violate that rule, you are cheating. Did players in 70s use steroids legally, sure. That would make it not cheating.
If my teacher says “We are taking a quiz now, you are free to talk with the people around you to get the answer,” and I do just that. It isn’t cheating. If the next day she says,“Today is test day, no looking at other peoples work, that’s cheating,” and I look at little Jimmy’s paper to my right, what am I doing?
If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying hard enough to win.
Anyone watch the 60 minutes special about A-Rod?
Some pretty interesting stuff reguarding the protocols he used and how he said it was basically impossible to test positive.
He had him on a regimen of what amounted to testosterone gummie bears that would be in and out of your system by the time the game was over lol
[quote]gregron wrote:
Anyone watch the 60 minutes special about A-Rod?
Some pretty interesting stuff reguarding the protocols he used and how he said it was basically impossible to test positive.
He had him on a regimen of what amounted to testosterone gummie bears that would be in and out of your system by the time the game was over lol[/quote]
Does anyone know if there is any legitimacy about it only staying in the system for a couple of hours and if it would even help if that were the case? Wouldn’t any benefit from testosterone require an elevated amount in the athletes system long enough to induce gene expression?
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
Anyone watch the 60 minutes special about A-Rod?
Some pretty interesting stuff reguarding the protocols he used and how he said it was basically impossible to test positive.
He had him on a regimen of what amounted to testosterone gummie bears that would be in and out of your system by the time the game was over lol[/quote]
Does anyone know if there is any legitimacy about it only staying in the system for a couple of hours and if it would even help if that were the case? Wouldn’t any benefit from testosterone require an elevated amount in the athletes system long enough to induce gene expression?[/quote]
Apparently there is benifit and it’s out of your system because the guy showed a bunch of texts back and forth about the protocols as well as him beating more than a dozen tests while “on.”
If there was no benifit he wouldn’t have been paying the guy $12,000+ bucks a month.
[quote]gregron wrote:
If there was no benifit he wouldn’t have been paying the guy $12,000+ bucks a month.[/quote]
I wouldn’t be so sure of that. The guy’s quite a head case. It might have just been expensive placebo. Alex hired a personal coach whose job it was to leave him voice messages and text messages telling him how great he is.
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
If there was no benifit he wouldn’t have been paying the guy $12,000+ bucks a month.[/quote]
I wouldn’t be so sure of that. The guy’s quite a head case. It might have just been expensive placebo. Alex hired a personal coach whose job it was to leave him voice messages and text messages telling him how great he is.[/quote]
A-Rod wasn’t his only client though.
[quote]gregron wrote:
He had him on a regimen of what amounted to testosterone gummie bears that would be in and out of your system by the time the game was over lol[/quote]
I was wondering about this all day. Wtf are these test gummies? Was he giving him cheque drops or something? That’s the only thing I could think of. Can someone who knows more about gear explain this fast acting oral that’s back out of your system in a few hours?
That dude was so full of shit. “hey, I’m just here to get the truth out” or some such thing. He just wanted to “educate” Arod so that Arod could take the products safely.
I’m thinking the lozenges were nothing more than a magic feather and Arod is such a head case (and so great of an athlete) that it worked. I half expected some spirit to float around and tell Arod that the magic was inside him all along…
I don’t know a lot about the subject, but I’m guessing short term transient spikes in T aren’t going to do much. There’s a lot of natural variation: " Blood samples obtained from 20 healthy young men every second day for 2 months were assayed for total testosterone concentration by radioligand saturation analysis with late-pregnancy plasma. The flucturations of plasma testosterone levels over the total time span were substantial for most individuals; the coefficients of variation ranged from 14 to 42% (median 21%)"
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1975 Mar;40(3):492-500
Unless someone can tell me exactly wtf those gummies were and/or confirm that they were working cheque drops (rare) then I agree with Pangloss. Arod’s dealer sounds like a bullshit shaman.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I’ll try again.[/quote]
This makes the case look pretty black and white to me.
[quote]doublelung84 wrote:
[quote]Phoenix44e wrote:
[quote]red04 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Why should players get a pass just because they made things interesting? Is cheating not cheating anymore? [/quote]
Technically MLB banned steroids in 1991 but did not implement testing until 2003.
Is it cheating if you know the ruling body is not going to enforce the rule, or is it a justifiable defense to believe MLB was merely paying lip service to the public on the issue?
[/quote]
Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I see it as cheating. Whether testing occurred or not doesn’t matter to me.
If there is a rule to keep a level playing field and you break said rule to get an advantage over other, that is cheating to me. Whether the rule was lip service to the fans or not. [/quote]
So where do you draw the line on ‘cheating?’ The HoF is filled with cheaters if you go strictly by the rulebook or banned substance list.[/quote]
I say let them all in, except people that bet on the game.
Maddox was first ballot, and he was notorious for scuffing the ball…in essence that’s cheating[/quote]
Can you provide a game that he was busted scuffing the ball?
[/quote]
Greg Maddux was not notorious for scuffing the ball. He never held a ball on the mound long enough to scuff it. What is impressive to me is that Maddux did what he did against the juiced up guys. Steroids cant help you if the pitcher makes you hit weak grounders to 2nd.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
He had him on a regimen of what amounted to testosterone gummie bears that would be in and out of your system by the time the game was over lol[/quote]
I was wondering about this all day. Wtf are these test gummies? Was he giving him cheque drops or something? That’s the only thing I could think of. Can someone who knows more about gear explain this fast acting oral that’s back out of your system in a few hours?[/quote]
Ya, I call bullshit on that one too!
And the peptide talk was bullshit also. Although it MAY help, I don’t see many BB or PL’s stocking up on it.
Another thing that threw me was the part getting the mid-stream piss. I’m no expert but your urine is held in your bladder, you get what was in there. I know the labs ask you to leak some before starting to add to the cup but I believe that’s just to clear the pipes.
He also said A-Rod was taking HGH with the peptides. Why the hell would you bother with peptides if you had access to HGH?
[quote]
If there is a rule to keep a level playing field and you break said rule to get an advantage over other, that is cheating to me. Whether the rule was lip service to the fans or not. [/quote]
You are giving these guys (or any guys for that matter) WAY too much moral credit. Almost no one would stick 100% to the rules given the stakes.
The thing that fans don’t seem to grasp is that this isn’t a game to players. It’s a job. It’s a very well paying job and they will do whatever they think they can do in order to make the most money possible and set themselves and their families up for life. Their “bending the rule” is just on a larger scale because of the stage.
If given the chance to “do what everyone else is going” and make an extra 10-20 million dollars, do you really expect people not to do it? Highly unlikely.
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
[quote]doublelung84 wrote:
[quote]Phoenix44e wrote:
[quote]red04 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Why should players get a pass just because they made things interesting? Is cheating not cheating anymore? [/quote]
Technically MLB banned steroids in 1991 but did not implement testing until 2003.
Is it cheating if you know the ruling body is not going to enforce the rule, or is it a justifiable defense to believe MLB was merely paying lip service to the public on the issue?
[/quote]
Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I see it as cheating. Whether testing occurred or not doesn’t matter to me.
If there is a rule to keep a level playing field and you break said rule to get an advantage over other, that is cheating to me. Whether the rule was lip service to the fans or not. [/quote]
So where do you draw the line on ‘cheating?’ The HoF is filled with cheaters if you go strictly by the rulebook or banned substance list.[/quote]
I say let them all in, except people that bet on the game.
Maddox was first ballot, and he was notorious for scuffing the ball…in essence that’s cheating[/quote]
Can you provide a game that he was busted scuffing the ball?
[/quote]
Greg Maddux was not notorious for scuffing the ball. He never held a ball on the mound long enough to scuff it. What is impressive to me is that Maddux did what he did against the juiced up guys. Steroids cant help you if the pitcher makes you hit weak grounders to 2nd.
[/quote]
I didn’t think he was ever busted for that but I wanted the guy show me if I was wrong. They said he knew how to throw a ball that was scuffed. That doesn’t mean he scuffed it. It could have been a ball that bounced in the dirt that an umpire didn’t ask for.
Being a Phillies fan, I watched that guy perform his magic. Not to mention the man was and is a class act. He’s welcome over for dinner at my place anytime!
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
[quote]doublelung84 wrote:
[quote]Phoenix44e wrote:
[quote]red04 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Why should players get a pass just because they made things interesting? Is cheating not cheating anymore? [/quote]
Technically MLB banned steroids in 1991 but did not implement testing until 2003.
Is it cheating if you know the ruling body is not going to enforce the rule, or is it a justifiable defense to believe MLB was merely paying lip service to the public on the issue?
[/quote]
Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I see it as cheating. Whether testing occurred or not doesn’t matter to me.
If there is a rule to keep a level playing field and you break said rule to get an advantage over other, that is cheating to me. Whether the rule was lip service to the fans or not. [/quote]
So where do you draw the line on ‘cheating?’ The HoF is filled with cheaters if you go strictly by the rulebook or banned substance list.[/quote]
I say let them all in, except people that bet on the game.
Maddox was first ballot, and he was notorious for scuffing the ball…in essence that’s cheating[/quote]
Can you provide a game that he was busted scuffing the ball?
[/quote]
Greg Maddux was not notorious for scuffing the ball. He never held a ball on the mound long enough to scuff it. What is impressive to me is that Maddux did what he did against the juiced up guys. Steroids cant help you if the pitcher makes you hit weak grounders to 2nd.
[/quote]
The fact that he wasn’t a power pitcher makes it even more unreal.
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]
If there is a rule to keep a level playing field and you break said rule to get an advantage over other, that is cheating to me. Whether the rule was lip service to the fans or not. [/quote]
You are giving these guys (or any guys for that matter) WAY too much moral credit. Almost no one would stick 100% to the rules given the stakes.
The thing that fans don’t seem to grasp is that this isn’t a game to players. It’s a job. It’s a very well paying job and they will do whatever they think they can do in order to make the most money possible and set themselves and their families up for life. Their “bending the rule” is just on a larger scale because of the stage.
If given the chance to “do what everyone else is going” and make an extra 10-20 million dollars, do you really expect people not to do it? Highly unlikely.[/quote]
Of course I expect people to do it. I don’t blame guys like Bonds at all. That doesn’t make it not cheating. Integrity may be a long lost word, but it still applies no matter what the stakes are.
Imo, all of this cheating and all of the ruling breaking with little to no repercussion teaches a poor lesson to youth athletes. The stakes are high indeed.