So how do you really feel Gregg? Hey, can you forward me those links you had about micrcurrent again? I wrote them down but had lost the paper I wrote them on. Thanks.
warning–super long post
Dr Gregg,
You?re getting a great deal of promotion for your new practice on the forum?c?mon, don?t you want to share! I am interested in promoting Rolfing?it?s great work, really helps people, that?s why I do it?but not at the expense of other effective therapies. That?s why I also recommended SOMA and Hellerwork as worth looking into. I don?t need to compete with other practitioners/types of practitioners, as there are so so so many people out there who need our help.
I was up front about my bias towards Rolfing, and my opinion of ART, (and the fact that my opinion of ART was based on very little information) in the hope that you would give me some more information about what exactly differentiates Rolfing from ART so that I could have a more well-formed opinion, perhaps even a different one (I am open to changing my mind). My clients and potential clients commonly ask me what the difference is between Rolfing and other therapies and I answer them as best I can?I would think that asking what makes ART different from other similar sounding therapies would be a common enough question (ART’s sophistication only “speaks for itself,” as you say, if you know what it is).
And I?m still not certain what the difference is between your myofascial work and mine. I can think of many differences between Rolfing as a whole and ART?I?ll get into that in a bit? but my question to you very specifically deals with soft tissue manipulation. In initially asking you to comment I presumed that you would either have some understanding of Rolfing and be able to say “there is/is not a relationship between the two, and the differences are x, y and z” or not, and then you would say “I?m not familiar with Rolfing, so I can?t say.”
I was hoping to engage you in a spirited discussion. I really did want to know what makes ART different from Rolfing, really did want to know if the way you strategize a course of sessions is typical or not. I still do, but if neither of us is familiar with the other?s work that might not be a question that can be answered here (since you likened Rolfing to a deep tissue massage, I can only assume that you are not familiar with my work. Rolfing and massage are very different. If you?d like to know the difference I?d be happy to tell you; I get asked that question all the time).
Perhaps calling your teacher deluded and misleading was a little too spirited even for this feisty forum. I?m sure Dr Leahy is good at what he does, but I have a philosophical aversion to the idea of “fixing” and so I let the way he promotes his work push my buttons?shoulders aren?t carburetors; bodies are infinitely complicated and bodyworkers are never going to have the same sort of success rates as mechanics or plumbers. So, in the spirit of debate, I?ll take back my mean adjectives, but I sill stand by my doubt of the believability of his claims. In the interview with Dr. Leahy in t-mag he claims that 95% of his patients are fixed, for good, in 3-6 visits (visits that are 5-15 minutes long). From my perspective working in this field, those are some eyebrow raising-stats, and strike me as too good to be true. Are those numbers anecdotal or based on hard evidence? I would need to see some very hard data to believe those stats, and even then it would be tough to believe, as I know for a fact that Dr. Leahy doesn?t know whether or not he fixed my boyfriend?s knee. He may think he helped him since my fella felt a little better for a little while, but that?s’ not fixed. So how is he figured into ART stats? If I?m wrong, and there is evidence, I?ll publicly cop to being dead wrong. I can do that.
To respond to your post:
Why would I do a series of 10 sessions on someone with an ankle injury? Here is where I?ll have to say a bit more about Rolfing. Rolfing isn?t about fixing things, even though pain is the primary reason that people seek out Rolfing. Rolfing is about balancing a person?s structure in relationship to gravity. That?s what I do with all of my clients; the benefits (improved posture and alignment, decreased aches and pains, increased flexibility and freedom of movement, increased energy, fuller and easier breath, increased body awareness, improved athletic and everyday performance, ability to relax more fully and easily, psychological growth) are secondary, but are common enough that people are willing to try it, even without a guarantee. Every session is has different structural and functional goals, and each series is adapted to each client (meaning I don?t do the exact same work on everyone). Back to the 10-series for an ankle injury?yes there can be fascial restrictions throughout the body relating to the ankle. And even if the ankle was a person?s sole focus, and the ankle existed independently of everything above it, what athlete wouldn?t be interested in improving their breathing, body awareness and freedom of movement? However, if a person really wasn?t interested anything other than their ankle, well, that?s when I might refer to a talented ART practitioner. I don?t have to work on everyone, and if Rolfing isn?t appropriate then I won?t.
Rolfers work with professional athletes too (neener neener). I think www.rolf.org has some testimonials.
Being able to play (to get back on the ice or football field) doesn?t mean you are healthy.
Rolfing sessions are more commonly spaced 1-2, maybe 3 weeks apart, not once a month.
To enter the Rolf Institute you need a college degree, BA or BS. My university degree was pre-physical therapy. The Rolfing training itself is around 900 hours; the Institute can tell you the exact amount. Doctors, chiros, nurses, PTs, massage therapists, etc, can skip the first 1/3 of the Rolfing training. So for them it?s “post-graduate” training (although I think that phrase applies to academic training, not professional); for me it was merely “graduate” level. So as with ART, Rolfers can have widely varying backgrounds. But we all have a significant education.
Which leads me to:
In your post you said, “Active Release Technique is performed by doctors that have a vast knowledge of tissue physiology, injury repair, anatomy and biomechanics.” Confusing. Did you mean that it was invented by doctors? Because I?m sure its been said elsewhere that massage therapists, physical therapists, etc can learn ART, not just doctors.
As to a degree: we are “Certified Rolfers” when finished with the 900ish hour basic training, “Rolf Movement Practitioners” when we have an extra movement training, and an advanced training is required after a few years of practice (and continuing education), after which we are referred to as “Certified Advanced Rolfers.”
Your sign off before (“Anyhow, thank you for your time”) was surely meant to be read as a “screw you,” since you weren?t grateful for my post. I, however, really am grateful for yours. You?ve given me an opportunity to reflect upon what I do and clarify my work. Always a good thing to do.
Best,
Catherine
Catherine,
I have been sending clients to an ART clinic for about 5 years now. It happens to be a clinic Dr. Gregg had worked at before his move to Florida. I can tell you this. 100% of my clients have been, yes are you ready for this, FIXED. Now forgive me, I have gotten to know Gregg pretty well and I can promise you he is much more eloquent than I. So, if I offend you , you should have seen it coming a mile a way and stopped reading this post. Neener, Neener?!?!? Give me a freakin break. Yes ART providers “fix” people in as little as 3-6 visits most of the time. I do have one client who it has taken a bit longer, but then again, her posterior leg was basically numb for well over a year because of a screwed up surgery which caused quite a horrendous problem with her sciatica. Postscript, after the Dr’s told her she would just have to deal with it, and every other professional “McTherapist” she went to said there was nothing that could be done, ART got her feeling back in every part of her leg except some of her hamstring. She is well on her way to a full recovery. So yes, my dear, ART can “fix” people and it works quickly, which is one reason why the claims sound so miraculous. “Rolfing”? Sounds like something I do after too many beers, or reading whiny forum posts. Good day.
You’re getting a great deal of promotion for your new practice on the forum. c’mon, don’t you want to share!
Catherine, I started a thread on ART because it is often recommended and discussed here on T-mag. A lot of people here on the forum knew I had “issues” and got ART to correct those issues. Rather than responding to people one-on-one, privately, I put up a thread to share what I experienced for the benefit of all.
Dr. Gregg isn’t promoting his practice. If anything, I’m the one that has sung his praises. I asked him if he would be willing to join the forum and answer people’s questions re ART. To date, he’s helped a lot of people and answered a lot of questions, both publicly and privately. And I appreciate very much the time he’s spent answering those questions and following up with people.
I think like a few other people that have responded to you that I probably jumped to the wrong conclusions re your post. It sounds like you really do have some questions and aren’t just trying to knock ART. Since this is an ART Case Study thread, why not start a thread of your own on the forum? Your questions, interests and the subject matter are somewhat tangential to the discussion at hand.
I agree with you that there are any number of healing modalities and types of body work that can correct a given problem/issue. I’m an advocate and proponent of anything that works and any skilled practitioner.
Your PM (Private Message) capability doesn’t look like it’s turned on. If you click on “My T-Forums” at the top of the screen and then “Edit Profile,” you can cursor down and change “Allow Private Messages?” to yes. At that point you could drop me a PM if you were so inclined.
Okay, my PM is on. The only other forum I participate in regularly changes subjects at anyone’s whim–I can see now that this one is more tidy. Apologies for hijacking a cool thread, I hope it continues as a case study. Anyone who wants to continue with my tangents can PM me–I’m still interested. I want to stress that I meant no disrespect (recall I said something to the effect of “you seem like a good practitioner” to Dr Gregg in my first post–thats the only reason I posted). I love a good conversation/debate (weightlifting for the mind) and jumped at the chance to have one and get some info. I’m not bothered by anyone’s response to my posts–its the nature of forums, after all–but I’ll still bow out now that I’m PM accessible.
ciao
c
Doctor,
I can free squat just fine if I sit back and utilize the hamstrings/glutes more. More of a sprinter/PL style of squatting. Whenever I do more of a olympic type squat (full squat) where my knees start going over my toes, right below my patella (possibly my patella tendon) and sometimes it’s right above my knee (possibly my hamstring tendon). I was thinking of adding more direct compound quad exercises since I train specifically for PL, and I don’t do much direct work on my quads.
My hamstrings are really tight, and so are my hip flexors. I know this because when I squat, I tend to flex forward with my trunk. My low back is also tight.
Also, I talked to Dr. Thomas Deebel, about another problem that I have. My right lat, and trap sit significantly lower. I tried some of the things he suggested, and I realized that my right obliques are extremely tight, so I’ve been stretching them a lot, but I ultimately think I just need to go get some ART done. Do you have any other suggestions. I would type out all of the suggestions Thomas gave me, but it would be a mile long. haha. Props to Tom!
Thanks for your time.
Landon
Dr. Gregg,
Is it ok to have ART done after a training session or should it be done on a seperate day? Is there a “recovery time period” that should be allowed before working out again?
Thanks
awesome post TT
Landon,
Well before adding exercises and changing your program I would implement a stretching routine to effectively stretch the areas of tightness. Now like I have said before stretching is not going to break down adhesions but it is the minimum you should be doing. Above in this thread I described the functional squat. I would suggest having that printed out and then get someone to watch you. Thanks to Terry she has produced pictures of the stretches that I prescribed to her which actually sound like they would be perfect for you. If you play hard then you have to recharge with some type of treatment to break down adhesions. Feel free to write back if you have any other questions
Good Luck
Gregg
Boss,
Depends on the type and amount of lifting. Also are you getting ART treatment for a specific injury or just to improve sports performance? If you are getting an injury taken care of then seperate days work best however I do suggest light lifting and stretching of the area treated after ART sessions to help “dial into the body”.
Good luck
Gregg
Dr Gregg I would like to ask you a question. A year ago at the state trackmeet I heard 3 pops in my leg while I was running, for a while my leg was hurt and was difficult to move. Then about a month later thigns seemed ok I did osme simple jogging then tried to pick up speed it popped again. I toko basicly the whole summer off then about 2 months ago I started running pretty fast again and all things are well besides some irritation in my hip flexor area where I think the injury originated from. And the cause of this irritation from waht I belive is scar tissue I was wondering if the ultrasound treatment the trainer has me on including ice and stretching is helping the scar tissue break away? Also can you recommend anything else besides ART that are more economical(pricewise) for me to try, to help out my left hip flexor? BTW from what the trainers said its in some region where the hip flexor and quad join together.
KingsRevenge,
It sounds like you have a psoas muscle (hip flexor)injury. When your jogging you are not asking the muscle to fully contract and as soon as you increase speed you are asking for that muscle to perform optimally. The problem is the excessive miles without proper treatment will catch up to you. What I have seen is that most runners don’t stretch enough which can initiate the problem. Also you can’t demand your body to work 100% without getting a “tune up”. You bring you car for a tune up after a certain amount of miles why not your body. It is crazy to me that people take better care of their care then their body. Ultrasound will help increase blood flow and tissue extensibility however it doesn’t break scar tissue. There are many treatments that claim to break scar tissue and I have tried many of them. I have found that ART is far and beyond any other treatment with fast and effective results. Also make sure that the development of the posterior (back), medial (inside) and lateral (outside) of the thigh muscles are equally developed as the anterior comapartment. Muscular imbalances are usually the initial source of strain.
Good Luck
Gregg
Get on a good stretching routine at the very least