[quote]pushharder wrote:
“My biology.” You can present no evidence whatsoever that your biology influences a single facet of your morality. It is subjective conjecture, period.
[/quote]
[quote]
Affecting it is different from causing it.
Lifting weights affects my muscles. It did not cause me to have them.[/quote]
Is this you silently retracting your first statement, Pushharder?
[quote]anonfactor wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Yeesh.
No matter how many people’s lives it saves. No matter what disaster it prevents. No matter what war is averted. No many how many other children protected from harm. It is still morally wrong to fuck a 7 year old boy in the asshole.
I can’t believe this is something I’m being challenged to “prove.”
[/quote]
This is getting absurd. You are not a making a defense, you are just making assertions and question begging. Do you disagree with the premise that the context of actions affect the morality of such actions, that normally moral actions in some circumstances would be considered immoral and vice versa?
If you don’t, then what it the problem? If you do, then make the case for an objective moral law or moral absolutes and counter the objections I’ve brought up previously.
I know full well that you believe the rape of children is morally wrong, as do I. However, your justification for that belief, that an objective moral law exists, is not valid from what you have presented.
[/quote]
You’re equivocating. You cannot say that you believe the rape of children to be morally wrong, but then it suddenly becomes okay when it is beneficial to someone else (and you can’t hear the absurdity in all of this?).
This is why I asked for a yes or no answer. As it stands, your answer appears to be no, that the rape of children can, indeed, be justified. If you disagree, then you find yourself in a dilemma.
Again, this is not situational. If you believe that raping children can be justified in some perverted situation, then you don’t really believe that child rape is bad. Period.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
“My biology.” You can present no evidence whatsoever that your biology influences a single facet of your morality. It is subjective conjecture, period.
[/quote]
Good catch. No retraction needed. In the context of everything I’ve written here that statement would more succinctly read, “You can present no evidence whatsoever that your biology influences a single facet of the basis of your morality.” I think you understood this. If you didn’t then your intellect is probably carrying a king size mattress in a footrace against a guy who isn’t.
Of course, we can come up with an example of a debilitated Down’s Syndrome man raping a 7 year child…and all that goes with that…
This, if you think about it, actually strengthens my case and weakens yours. Because if you want to run with the “biology is the causation of my morality” ethos then we’re back to wolves, dolphins, and chimps (and Down’s syndrome people); in other words morality just ebbs and flows by chance with no creator or guide in place.[/quote]
Good point, however I don’t agree that morality “just ebbs and flows by chance”, our sense of morality gives us an advantage to survive and prosper as a specie and is a part of our natural evolution and adaptation. It is just a stronger, more developed sense than the social behaviour that many animals do express (Sociality - Wikipedia)
My point is that our stronger sense of morality does not disprove natural evolution. Its complexity could be the work of a creator or it could be a game of probabilities guided by adaptation and survival
[quote]Raging Frenchman wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
“My biology.” You can present no evidence whatsoever that your biology influences a single facet of your morality. It is subjective conjecture, period.
[/quote]
Good catch. No retraction needed. In the context of everything I’ve written here that statement would more succinctly read, “You can present no evidence whatsoever that your biology influences a single facet of the basis of your morality.” I think you understood this. If you didn’t then your intellect is probably carrying a king size mattress in a footrace against a guy who isn’t.
Of course, we can come up with an example of a debilitated Down’s Syndrome man raping a 7 year child…and all that goes with that…
This, if you think about it, actually strengthens my case and weakens yours. Because if you want to run with the “biology is the causation of my morality” ethos then we’re back to wolves, dolphins, and chimps (and Down’s syndrome people); in other words morality just ebbs and flows by chance with no creator or guide in place.[/quote]
Good point, however I don’t agree that morality “just ebbs and flows by chance”, our sense of morality gives us an advantage to survive and prosper as a specie and is a part of our natural evolution and adaptation. It is just a stronger, more developed sense than the social behaviour that many animals do express (Sociality - Wikipedia)
My point is that our stronger sense of morality does not disprove natural evolution. Its complexity could be the work of a creator or it could be a game of probabilities guided by adaptation and survival
[/quote]
Then why is this evolutionary mechanism so atrociously wrong so often?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
“My upbringing/experiences.” If your upbringing occurred in Europe, the western hemisphere, much of Asia or Australia/New Zealand then your upbringing was directly influenced by the absolute morals of an outer-dimensional Being. You can run but you can’t hide from this simple, basic, unchallengeable truth.[/quote]
Proof?[/quote]
Anyway, you guys tip your cards too often.
push is asserting that the cultures of these areas are steeped in monotheistic religion, to the point that you cannot escape its influence.
Simple enough for you? ;)[/quote]
No.
It’s plain and simple to deduce how much religion has previously shaped our civilization. I want proof that this outer dimensional being is what created this absolute morality.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Then why is this evolutionary mechanism so atrociously wrong so often?
[/quote]
Because it’s not perfect and the world isn’t a nice place. The scale of time that evolution works on means that complete eradication for undesirable traits (i.e. fondness for children) will take a very long time. Our disdain for it is one of the mechanisms by which it is eliminated (i.e. stopping pedophiles from breeding).
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Then why is this evolutionary mechanism so atrociously wrong so often?
[/quote]
Because it’s not perfect and the world isn’t a nice place. The scale of time that evolution works on means that complete eradication for undesirable traits (i.e. fondness for children) will take a very long time. Our disdain for it is one of the mechanisms by which it is eliminated (i.e. stopping pedophiles from breeding).[/quote]
What he said. I send you back the question: why is this god-created mechanism so atrociously wrong so often?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Raging Frenchman wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Then why is this evolutionary mechanism so atrociously wrong so often?
[/quote]
Because it’s not perfect and the world isn’t a nice place. The scale of time that evolution works on means that complete eradication for undesirable traits (i.e. fondness for children) will take a very long time. Our disdain for it is one of the mechanisms by which it is eliminated (i.e. stopping pedophiles from breeding).[/quote]
What he said. I send you back the question: why is this god-created mechanism so atrociously wrong so often?[/quote]
God didn’t create Sin.
When the God-created mechanism is followed, i.e.,"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" and “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” THEN atrocious wrongs are avoided.[/quote]
Exactly. More square pegs. Neither push nor I have stated that God created a system that would ensure that we follow it. In fact, we’ve both been stating exactly the opposite from the beginning.
The system is there whether us very fallible humans want to follow it, agree with it, like it, believe it in, or spit on it. Following it, however, will ensure success, happiness, and harmony for those involved.
The very fact that God has to tell us this over and over is evidence that even Christians understand that it doesn’t work the way you are trying say we are saying it works.
Try again.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
God didn’t create Sin.
[/quote]
Didn’t God create EVERYTHING?
^^^^Will you guys at least study the other side’s argument a tiny bit so we don’t have to waste so much time correcting bullshit?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
But a young guy like you might think it’s kewl to play it again.
[/quote]
Do you think maybe this image and expectation that most posters on this forum are young, at least younger than you - Do you think this contributes to your closed-mindedness and to your hostility to others that are “inexperienced” and “ignorant”?
Your a smart cat and I enjoy reading your posts but you come across as you are the self proclaimed genius on the block. You even infer in some of your posts to have a belief differently than you is moronic.
I am sure you are going to spin this and ,in the process, come up with a clever remark to “put me in my place”. But thats simply what you do.
You may have a tense day-to-day life so you are forced to use this forum as an outlet to release all your inadequacies and rage, to prove to yourself your high status, or it might be some other reason… but whatever it is, you get your kicks off it. And I feel it really takes away from the debate.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
CD, you wanna know what God created? Read Genesis 1:1.[/quote]
I was thinking of Isaiah 45:7
" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]"
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
CD, you wanna know what God created? Read Genesis 1:1.[/quote]
I was thinking of Isaiah 45:7
" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]"
[/quote]
Translation and original intent.
If I say, “My stomach hurts” in English, it means that there is a pain in my abdomen. If a Japanese says “My stomach hurts” in his native language, it means, “I need to take a shit.” Similar, but not the same.