Arm Definition

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Body recomp is a SLOW process…and one I would not waste time on unless advanced and already big.[/quote]

Or in the military and having to do a good deal of running like this guy<<<

Dammit. Can’t wait to finish this contract and bulk. [/quote]

I can honestly say that shit me back YEARS. I was able to hold my heaviest weight for a full year for the first time this past two years…and the result was the retention of more mass when dropping weight. i could never do that before because at most I had 2-3 months before I had to drop weight again for PT.

I mean, I am glad I did it because that experience has helped me in every aspect of my life since I got out (pm me by the way before you separate or get discharged), but I know I had to make a choice back then between making the most progress and a career base.[/quote]

Yep it kinda sucks in a sense, me being held to around 210 or below before the joints take too much of a beating…same as you went through. So my goal when I get out is to be the leanest, strongest 210ish lbs possible, then go from there. Shit, I’ll only be 25, still pretty young.

And yeah I’ll definitely be in touch some of you vets before I get out, I’m sure y’all have plenty of advice on the transition, making the most of our benefits, and all that. Always appreciate any help I can get on that stuff.

42

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
If I could do it over too, as a beginner before lifting weights I would have gotten lean as shit and then entered the gym. [/quote]

No dude, stretch marks… And its actually harder to put decent size on when you’re that lean and small at the same time… rather just keep a decent body fat the whole time and cut to desired weight after.[/quote]

That’s somewhat what he’s saying. He means that if he’d entered the gym lean to begin with, he would’ve had a little more room for error, as it were, and would’ve been less likely to get fat before coming to terms with reality. And yes, I know his background very well, he knows his stuff. [/quote]

Ok, cool. I agree with everything you said, was just trying to stress that I would rather start at 10 or 11% (and keep it under 13) than “lean as shit” which I take to be about 8 or so.[/quote]

Can you explain why?

If you have a guy who’s 6’ tall 185lbs 10%. And a guy 6’ 180 8% (both have roughly 166lbs of LBM), why would you choose the former? Surely the latter would have better insulin sensitivity, even if only theoretically and not that significant in reality. But still, it seems counterintuitive to DESIRE to start a bulk at a higher bf% if the two options are readily available. [/quote]

Wait, you will not find “better insulin sensitivity” just because one patient is 5lbs less than another.

I would hope we all know this already. You would have to be talking about extremes, not small differences in body fat. Someone 30% body fat may have poor insulin sensitivity compared to someone who is 10%, but let’s not get carried away by acting like small fat percentages cause massive destruction to the body.

43

For anyone who gives a shit, this is why austin wished he’d started/stayed leaner when “bulking”. I think it’s safe to assume he didn’t need to let himself go to this point to get where he is now, in the same amount of time or less. Granted, some people let themselves go worse, but the point remains.

44

That’s what excessive protein shakes and weight gainers will do to you.

Anyways bonez hit the nail on the head up there about the point of my post.

45

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
For anyone who gives a shit, this is why austin wished he’d started/stayed leaner when “bulking”. I think it’s safe to assume he didn’t need to let himself go to this point to get where he is now, in the same amount of time or less. Granted, some people let themselves go worse, but the point remains. [/quote]

No, I get it and understood that already…but I was fatter than that before I started dieting 3 months ago (some was intentional to have a more drastic before pic and to induce a state of “panic” lol). That requires dieting and yeah, he was at a good place to drop some fat…just like I was.

That doesn’t mean he somehow did it wrong. He now knows his boundaries and will eventually settle into what is most comfortable for him.

46

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
That’s what excessive protein shakes and weight gainers will do to you.

Anyways bonez hit the nail on the head up there about the point of my post. [/quote]

I wouldn’t blame the protein shakes.

I know for a fact that weight gainers are now something I need to stay far away from. I used one over the last year thinking it would help me at work when I couldn’t eat. It was one reason I was fatter this year at the same weight I had been before and a little leaner.

The ONLY people I think should touch that shit are really skinny newbs.

47

I would post the pic here but I already know what the response will be. The people I show it to don’t even believe it and they knew me 3 months ago.

48

I forget what the on I used was called maybe true mass by optimum nutrition but I was gaining like 2lbs a week at one point.

And I just don’t think dairy, including whey is something my body likes. Biggest changes in body comp have come from eliminating diary and shakes. I’m still eating high carb and getting leaner.

49

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
For anyone who gives a shit, this is why austin wished he’d started/stayed leaner when “bulking”. I think it’s safe to assume he didn’t need to let himself go to this point to get where he is now, in the same amount of time or less. Granted, some people let themselves go worse, but the point remains. [/quote]

No, I get it and understood that already…but I was fatter than that before I started dieting 3 months ago (some was intentional to have a more drastic before pic and to induce a state of “panic” lol). That requires dieting and yeah, he was at a good place to drop some fat…just like I was.

That doesn’t mean he somehow did it wrong. He now knows his boundaries and will eventually settle into what is most comfortable for him.[/quote]

Of course, you also carry more muscle mass than he did in his “before”…and it’s generally known that at heavier weights, higher bodyfat is required than at lower weights, as a rule of thumb.

Once again, pretty fucking sure we’re all preaching the same message, just worded a lil differently, and with differing opinions on where “the line” between far enough and too far is. Guess I should be used to that by now haha.

50

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
If I could do it over too, as a beginner before lifting weights I would have gotten lean as shit and then entered the gym. [/quote]

No dude, stretch marks… And its actually harder to put decent size on when you’re that lean and small at the same time… rather just keep a decent body fat the whole time and cut to desired weight after.[/quote]

That’s somewhat what he’s saying. He means that if he’d entered the gym lean to begin with, he would’ve had a little more room for error, as it were, and would’ve been less likely to get fat before coming to terms with reality. And yes, I know his background very well, he knows his stuff. [/quote]

Ok, cool. I agree with everything you said, was just trying to stress that I would rather start at 10 or 11% (and keep it under 13) than “lean as shit” which I take to be about 8 or so.[/quote]

I agree with you. Not to mention some gain muscle faster at higher body fat percentages like “12%” instead of “8%”…meaning “lean as shit” could potentially hold back the progress of someone trying to put the most size on.

Also, someone who is “skinny fat” will likely set themselves way back by trying to get ripped before they ever actually build any mass at all.

Everyone doesn’t have the genetics to make optimal progress at sub-10% body fat levels…therefore, making the body fat percentage the main concern right out of the gate before understanding how the body responds to training overall may not be the best choice in most cases.

I mean, if your goal isn’t really to get all that big, then yeah, that approach sounds great.

It sounds really bad for the 90lbs kid looking to get swole or even the 150lbs skinny fat guy who is nearly 6 feet tall.[/quote]

Both of you misunderstood Austins post. He didnt mean that he’d STAY at ‘lean as shit’ while gaining. Just that he’d have preferred to START there. His post wasnt clear on that, but that’s what he meant.

And I dont see a reason, if someone had the choice, to prefer to start a ‘bulk’ at 12% over 8%. If you start at a lower bodyfat you have more time to eat big and gain muscle before going into so called ‘damage control’ mode.

I agree with you on the skinny fat part. Skinny fat guys have, by far, the most difficult task ahead of them. [/quote]

I don’t think I misunderstood him at all. I already know Austin is on some lean kick. If that makes him happy, good for him. The act of a newbie dieting (unless obese), before they get in the gym and see how their body responds makes little sense to me. None of us have any clue what the genetics of someone else even are. I do know that for me, that would have spelled disaster, even though I was read at “11%” body fat when I was only 150lbs.

I remember my abs not being defined. Can you imagine me wasting time trying to drop weight close to 140lbs or less before curling a dumbbell? For what? How would that help someone?[/quote]

You clearly did misunderstand him. You thought he was talking abuot trying to stay ‘super lean’ WHILE bulking (the whole time). I explained that’s not what he meant.

Further. What does anyone else have to do with him? He said that HE would have preferred to be lean. He didnt make a general statement like you are making. Your example of yourself is the exact same thing as his opinion himself. Its just different. We know your opinion on visibile abs while gaining. Now we know austin’s.

General statements dont apply to someone reflecting on their journey; he definitely did not say that EVERYONE or even anyone should want to be super lean at the outset of a bulk.

I firmly believe that if someone is unhappy with their appearance, he should do something about it. Now its very possible (and likely) that OP is delusional and is not carrying nearly the muscle mass that he thinks he is, but we cant know that without a picture. A picture request should have been the first or second response, instead we have a jackass who thinks 20 rep sets burn fat derailing a potentially informative thread.

51

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
I forget what the on I used was called maybe true mass by optimum nutrition but I was gaining like 2lbs a week at one point.

And I just don’t think dairy, including whey is something my body likes. Biggest changes in body comp have come from eliminating diary and shakes. I’m still eating high carb and getting leaner. [/quote]

I wouldn’t even jump to that conclusion. Like I said, I was fatter than that 3 months ago. I can pm you the pic.

I was more focused on the body weight than composition though (because I was purposefully trying to hold a specific weight for reasons I have gone into before)…and I allowed the weight gain shakes thinking I could keep it under control since I had been that heavy before.

Your body likely was just taking in too many carbs and overall calories.

I don’t use much milk now at all (especially now that I have the MAG-10), and will never touch another weight gain shake.

52

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
I forget what the on I used was called maybe true mass by optimum nutrition but I was gaining like 2lbs a week at one point.

And I just don’t think dairy, including whey is something my body likes. Biggest changes in body comp have come from eliminating diary and shakes. I’m still eating high carb and getting leaner. [/quote]

I certainly some people are better of minimizing dairy intake partially for your reasons, and partially because it’s not exactly the best option for a fat source in favor of healthier joints, and the high rate of people allergic to it…somewhat relevant to point #1.

Thankfully, my body handles dairy pretty well.

53

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
If I could do it over too, as a beginner before lifting weights I would have gotten lean as shit and then entered the gym. [/quote]

No dude, stretch marks… And its actually harder to put decent size on when you’re that lean and small at the same time… rather just keep a decent body fat the whole time and cut to desired weight after.[/quote]

That’s somewhat what he’s saying. He means that if he’d entered the gym lean to begin with, he would’ve had a little more room for error, as it were, and would’ve been less likely to get fat before coming to terms with reality. And yes, I know his background very well, he knows his stuff. [/quote]

Ok, cool. I agree with everything you said, was just trying to stress that I would rather start at 10 or 11% (and keep it under 13) than “lean as shit” which I take to be about 8 or so.[/quote]

Can you explain why?

If you have a guy who’s 6’ tall 185lbs 10%. And a guy 6’ 180 8% (both have roughly 166lbs of LBM), why would you choose the former? Surely the latter would have better insulin sensitivity, even if only theoretically and not that significant in reality. But still, it seems counterintuitive to DESIRE to start a bulk at a higher bf% if the two options are readily available. [/quote]

Wait, you will not find “better insulin sensitivity” just because one patient is 5lbs less than another.

I would hope we all know this already. You would have to be talking about extremes, not small differences in body fat. Someone 30% body fat may have poor insulin sensitivity compared to someone who is 10%, but let’s not get carried away by acting like small fat percentages cause massive destruction to the body.[/quote]

I obvously do know that. And made that clear as I emphasized the difference may only be theoretical. But I wasnt talking to you on that issue, I was asking Silo his opinion. I just cant think of a reason to WANT to start a bulk at a higher bf if its entirely possible to do it at a lower body fat. I want to hear a reason why he would prefer that because I cant come up with a reason, not because he’s right or wrong.

54

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
If I could do it over too, as a beginner before lifting weights I would have gotten lean as shit and then entered the gym. [/quote]

No dude, stretch marks… And its actually harder to put decent size on when you’re that lean and small at the same time… rather just keep a decent body fat the whole time and cut to desired weight after.[/quote]

That’s somewhat what he’s saying. He means that if he’d entered the gym lean to begin with, he would’ve had a little more room for error, as it were, and would’ve been less likely to get fat before coming to terms with reality. And yes, I know his background very well, he knows his stuff. [/quote]

Ok, cool. I agree with everything you said, was just trying to stress that I would rather start at 10 or 11% (and keep it under 13) than “lean as shit” which I take to be about 8 or so.[/quote]

I agree with you. Not to mention some gain muscle faster at higher body fat percentages like “12%” instead of “8%”…meaning “lean as shit” could potentially hold back the progress of someone trying to put the most size on.

Also, someone who is “skinny fat” will likely set themselves way back by trying to get ripped before they ever actually build any mass at all.

Everyone doesn’t have the genetics to make optimal progress at sub-10% body fat levels…therefore, making the body fat percentage the main concern right out of the gate before understanding how the body responds to training overall may not be the best choice in most cases.

I mean, if your goal isn’t really to get all that big, then yeah, that approach sounds great.

It sounds really bad for the 90lbs kid looking to get swole or even the 150lbs skinny fat guy who is nearly 6 feet tall.[/quote]

Both of you misunderstood Austins post. He didnt mean that he’d STAY at ‘lean as shit’ while gaining. Just that he’d have preferred to START there. His post wasnt clear on that, but that’s what he meant.

And I dont see a reason, if someone had the choice, to prefer to start a ‘bulk’ at 12% over 8%. If you start at a lower bodyfat you have more time to eat big and gain muscle before going into so called ‘damage control’ mode.

I agree with you on the skinny fat part. Skinny fat guys have, by far, the most difficult task ahead of them. [/quote]

I don’t think I misunderstood him at all. I already know Austin is on some lean kick. If that makes him happy, good for him. The act of a newbie dieting (unless obese), before they get in the gym and see how their body responds makes little sense to me. None of us have any clue what the genetics of someone else even are. I do know that for me, that would have spelled disaster, even though I was read at “11%” body fat when I was only 150lbs.

I remember my abs not being defined. Can you imagine me wasting time trying to drop weight close to 140lbs or less before curling a dumbbell? For what? How would that help someone?[/quote]

You clearly did misunderstand him. You thought he was talking abuot trying to stay ‘super lean’ WHILE bulking (the whole time). I explained that’s not what he meant.

Further. What does anyone else have to do with him? He said that HE would have preferred to be lean. He didnt make a general statement like you are making. Your example of yourself is the exact same thing as his opinion himself. Its just different. We know your opinion on visibile abs while gaining. Now we know austin’s.

General statements dont apply to someone reflecting on their journey; he definitely did not say that EVERYONE or even anyone should want to be super lean at the outset of a bulk.
[/quote]

Is this a fight?

LOL.

Generally speaking:
I said that NONE OF US KNOWS what genetics a newb has…meaning they COULD get in the gym and immediately start losing fat and gain a little muscle with ZERO change in diet. We don’t know…so assuming they would be better off leaner without knowing how they respond to the training and diet of someone who lifts regularly is a mistake.

I didn’t even respond to “lean bulking” as far as Austin and that wasn’t the point of my post. Maybe you misunderstood me. I didn’t even approach how he would gain weight after that.

55

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Your body likely was just taking in too many carbs and overall calories.
[/quote]

Something to note here…it seems like MANY people ignore the carbs in milk. I’ve found myself treating it (mentally) as a low/no-carb calorie source, despite the obvious fact that it has about 50% more carbs than protein. Those macros sure add up.

56

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I just cant think of a reason to WANT to start a bulk at a higher bf if its entirely possible to do it at a lower body fat. I want to hear a reason why he would prefer that because I cant come up with a reason, not because he’s right or wrong. [/quote]

This is not about what you would prefer as a newb. I am sure he would “prefer” to look like a cover model. The reality is that someone with low muscle mass and relatively average body fat should first define their goals.

If those goals involve getting big muscles, worrying about dieting all fat off is a waste of time…which is the main factor I always go into as the main limiting factor as far as your own progress. Bottom line, you don’t have forever to get really really big. That is coming from someone who was skinnier than most I’ve seen here and smaller overall.

The real question is, what is the benefit to being more focused on body fat if it lengthens the time it takes to make significant progress when time is the greatest factor working against you?

57

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
If I could do it over too, as a beginner before lifting weights I would have gotten lean as shit and then entered the gym. [/quote]

No dude, stretch marks… And its actually harder to put decent size on when you’re that lean and small at the same time… rather just keep a decent body fat the whole time and cut to desired weight after.[/quote]

That’s somewhat what he’s saying. He means that if he’d entered the gym lean to begin with, he would’ve had a little more room for error, as it were, and would’ve been less likely to get fat before coming to terms with reality. And yes, I know his background very well, he knows his stuff. [/quote]

Ok, cool. I agree with everything you said, was just trying to stress that I would rather start at 10 or 11% (and keep it under 13) than “lean as shit” which I take to be about 8 or so.[/quote]

Can you explain why?

If you have a guy who’s 6’ tall 185lbs 10%. And a guy 6’ 180 8% (both have roughly 166lbs of LBM), why would you choose the former? Surely the latter would have better insulin sensitivity, even if only theoretically and not that significant in reality. But still, it seems counterintuitive to DESIRE to start a bulk at a higher bf% if the two options are readily available. [/quote]

Those would not be the options. You are considering two different people. If it was the same guy considering first cutting to 8 at a lower bodyweight or staying at 10 or 11 at his current bodyweight before trying to gain muscle then he would likely be wasting time cutting to 8 and just getting smaller. Better to go straight to gaining and keep the diet in check so as not to get over 13% during bulk.

Ps this is now purely hypothetical theory and has nothing to do with Austin

58

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
I forget what the on I used was called maybe true mass by optimum nutrition but I was gaining like 2lbs a week at one point.

And I just don’t think dairy, including whey is something my body likes. Biggest changes in body comp have come from eliminating diary and shakes. I’m still eating high carb and getting leaner. [/quote]

I wouldn’t even jump to that conclusion. Like I said, I was fatter than that 3 months ago. I can pm you the pic.

I was more focused on the body weight than composition though (because I was purposefully trying to hold a specific weight for reasons I have gone into before)…and I allowed the weight gain shakes thinking I could keep it under control since I had been that heavy before.

Your body likely was just taking in too many carbs and overall calories.

I don’t use much milk now at all (especially now that I have the MAG-10), and will never touch another weight gain shake.[/quote]

Yeah I’d be interested in seeing the pic.

Definitely think it’s pretty easy to consume too many calories when they’re in liquid form.

Cutting out all sugary beverages was something that clearly helped too. I like diet drinks more now anyways.

59

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
I forget what the on I used was called maybe true mass by optimum nutrition but I was gaining like 2lbs a week at one point.

And I just don’t think dairy, including whey is something my body likes. Biggest changes in body comp have come from eliminating diary and shakes. I’m still eating high carb and getting leaner. [/quote]

Probably ON serious mass? Loads of simple sugars.

60

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Silo101 wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
If I could do it over too, as a beginner before lifting weights I would have gotten lean as shit and then entered the gym. [/quote]

No dude, stretch marks… And its actually harder to put decent size on when you’re that lean and small at the same time… rather just keep a decent body fat the whole time and cut to desired weight after.[/quote]

That’s somewhat what he’s saying. He means that if he’d entered the gym lean to begin with, he would’ve had a little more room for error, as it were, and would’ve been less likely to get fat before coming to terms with reality. And yes, I know his background very well, he knows his stuff. [/quote]

Ok, cool. I agree with everything you said, was just trying to stress that I would rather start at 10 or 11% (and keep it under 13) than “lean as shit” which I take to be about 8 or so.[/quote]

I agree with you. Not to mention some gain muscle faster at higher body fat percentages like “12%” instead of “8%”…meaning “lean as shit” could potentially hold back the progress of someone trying to put the most size on.

Also, someone who is “skinny fat” will likely set themselves way back by trying to get ripped before they ever actually build any mass at all.

Everyone doesn’t have the genetics to make optimal progress at sub-10% body fat levels…therefore, making the body fat percentage the main concern right out of the gate before understanding how the body responds to training overall may not be the best choice in most cases.

I mean, if your goal isn’t really to get all that big, then yeah, that approach sounds great.

It sounds really bad for the 90lbs kid looking to get swole or even the 150lbs skinny fat guy who is nearly 6 feet tall.[/quote]

Both of you misunderstood Austins post. He didnt mean that he’d STAY at ‘lean as shit’ while gaining. Just that he’d have preferred to START there. His post wasnt clear on that, but that’s what he meant.

And I dont see a reason, if someone had the choice, to prefer to start a ‘bulk’ at 12% over 8%. If you start at a lower bodyfat you have more time to eat big and gain muscle before going into so called ‘damage control’ mode.

I agree with you on the skinny fat part. Skinny fat guys have, by far, the most difficult task ahead of them. [/quote]

I don’t think I misunderstood him at all. I already know Austin is on some lean kick. If that makes him happy, good for him. The act of a newbie dieting (unless obese), before they get in the gym and see how their body responds makes little sense to me. None of us have any clue what the genetics of someone else even are. I do know that for me, that would have spelled disaster, even though I was read at “11%” body fat when I was only 150lbs.

I remember my abs not being defined. Can you imagine me wasting time trying to drop weight close to 140lbs or less before curling a dumbbell? For what? How would that help someone?[/quote]

You clearly did misunderstand him. You thought he was talking abuot trying to stay ‘super lean’ WHILE bulking (the whole time). I explained that’s not what he meant.

Further. What does anyone else have to do with him? He said that HE would have preferred to be lean. He didnt make a general statement like you are making. Your example of yourself is the exact same thing as his opinion himself. Its just different. We know your opinion on visibile abs while gaining. Now we know austin’s.

General statements dont apply to someone reflecting on their journey; he definitely did not say that EVERYONE or even anyone should want to be super lean at the outset of a bulk.
[/quote]

Is this a fight?

LOL.

Generally speaking:
I said that NONE OF US KNOWS what genetics a newb has…meaning they COULD get in the gym and immediately start losing fat and gain a little muscle with ZERO change in diet. We don’t know…so assuming they would be better off leaner without knowing how they respond to the training and diet of someone who lifts regularly is a mistake.

I didn’t even respond to “lean bulking” as far as Austin and that wasn’t the point of my post. Maybe you misunderstood me. I didn’t even approach how he would gain weight after that.[/quote]

FUCK NO this is not a fight. How could you possibly think that? Jesus christ.

Austin made a very specific comment about HIS BODY and you came back with general statements addressed to newbs. I said it seems as if you missed Austin’s point. Ausin was talking about himself, then Silo spoke about himself, then you spoke about newbs in general. Im not sure why. That is all.

Because I would agree with you that someone who said that ALL people should get really lean before bulking is wrong. Some shouldnt. But if the two choices are readily available I dont see how CHOOSING to be fatter at the start is beter.