[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Jfbalabama wrote:
Someone
Did
Somewhere
[/quote]
Copy and paste the someone’s post.[/quote]
I could be wrong since I haven’t gone back to look, but I do believe that Maximus said as much earlier.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I’m curious as to why someone would suggest that a wall wouldn’t work. Built on a sufficient scale, I believe it would.
On the other hand, I also think there should be a dead zone between the border and the wall that should be mined…and that sure isn’t going to happen.
I remember many years ago when the Berlin Wall fell. I suggested back then that they should have taken all those out of work border guards, brought them to the US, given them a place to live, new weapons and new fields of fire along the Mexican border. They would have been happier than the proverbial pigs in you-know-what. Better pay…US citizenship. It would have been a public relations success story.
Alas…[/quote]
so maybe i jumped to a conclusion and mapwhap suggests somewhere we need better laws.
So I’m going to add another to-be-explored avenue to this thread (in addition to IrishSteel’s national security one).
Illegal Mexican immigration allows a stop-gap for Mexico’s corrupt and frequently incompetent government. Instead of being constrained in-country, its peoples dissatisfied with the government and economy are (relatively) free to emigrate to the US. Preventing this would force Mexico’s entire workforce to stay in-country and thus prod its government to deal with its economic/governmental issues in a direct, head-on fashion instead of being offered the ability to let off steam through emigration.
So really, putting up a wall (in the figurative sense) would have Mexico’s long-term interests at heart.
[quote]Otep wrote:
So I’m going to add another to-be-explored avenue to this thread (in addition to IrishSteel’s national security one).
Illegal Mexican immigration allows a stop-gap for Mexico’s corrupt and frequently incompetent government. Instead of being constrained in-country, its peoples dissatisfied with the government and economy are (relatively) free to emigrate to the US. Preventing this would force Mexico’s entire workforce to stay in-country and thus prod its government to deal with its economic/governmental issues in a direct, head-on fashion instead of being offered the ability to let off steam through emigration.
So really, putting up a wall (in the figurative sense) would have Mexico’s long-term interests at heart.[/quote]
agree. It would also cut off a big portion of their GDP. Money coming back from America is number 2 or 3 for revenue generation in Mexico.
^ great post Otep, I like your thinking on this one. Mexico was making great strides economically in the early 90’s and then it seems like everything collapsed internally. Someone more familiar with the government in Mexico might be able to explain what happened there and why economic progress has stalled out - I personally think corruption is the biggest problem, but as I said I’m not thoroughly versed on the subject.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
…And if you think tunnels under the walls is some sort of wild assumption on my part or that there aren’t people going under the border via tunnel right now, you’re sorely mistaken. I worked for several years for a landscaper who hired tons of illegals and you know what? Every single one of them had come across the border via tunnel at some point or another. If you think that building wall footings deeper is an acceptable solution to this problem, you’re more far-gone than even I thought was possible…[/quote]
Tunnels would never be capable of serving as the sole conduits for the masses of illegals we see now. Never.[/quote]
You’re 100% correct on that one! If we built a wall, I’m sure that along with using tunnels, we’d see illegals coming by boat as well as some exotic means of smuggling.[/quote]
More geography ineptitude. Look at a map of North America and tell us how a maritime invasion of the US by Mexican illegals would work.[/quote]
While I look at a map, you look in my previous post and tell me where I suggested we’d be subjected to a maritime invasion.
[quote]Otep wrote:
So I’m going to add another to-be-explored avenue to this thread (in addition to IrishSteel’s national security one).
Illegal Mexican immigration allows a stop-gap for Mexico’s corrupt and frequently incompetent government. Instead of being constrained in-country, its peoples dissatisfied with the government and economy are (relatively) free to emigrate to the US. Preventing this would force Mexico’s entire workforce to stay in-country and thus prod its government to deal with its economic/governmental issues in a direct, head-on fashion instead of being offered the ability to let off steam through emigration.
So really, putting up a wall (in the figurative sense) would have Mexico’s long-term interests at heart.[/quote]
Wrong. Mexicans would still come here in similar numbers if they could only get jobs here through legal means. The economic situation in Mexico is such that they willingly put themselves at danger to come here because there are jobs waiting for them. If the same jobs were here for them, but only if they were legal migrants, they would come over here as well. If we want to keep Mexicans in Mexico “for their sake” then the solution is to disallow employers from hiring any sort of Mexican immigrant, legal or not. As long as there are jobs here for them, Mexicans will come here for them, regardless of the process or the avenues in which they travel here. We only allow a certain amount of immigrants here legally each year, a number which is much less than the jobs available. The comprehensive solution is to enact much stricter penalties for those who hire illegals (a tactic that has proven to be successful in Arizona), make the legal process for coming here easier and to allow much more immigrants from Mexico to come here legally each year, rather than capping that number at an inadequate threshold.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
…And if you think tunnels under the walls is some sort of wild assumption on my part or that there aren’t people going under the border via tunnel right now, you’re sorely mistaken. I worked for several years for a landscaper who hired tons of illegals and you know what? Every single one of them had come across the border via tunnel at some point or another. If you think that building wall footings deeper is an acceptable solution to this problem, you’re more far-gone than even I thought was possible…[/quote]
Tunnels would never be capable of serving as the sole conduits for the masses of illegals we see now. Never.[/quote]
You’re 100% correct on that one! If we built a wall, I’m sure that along with using tunnels, we’d see illegals coming by boat as well as some exotic means of smuggling.[/quote]
More geography ineptitude. Look at a map of North America and tell us how a maritime invasion of the US by Mexican illegals would work.[/quote]
While I look at a map, you look in my previous post and tell me where I suggested we’d be subjected to a maritime invasion.[/quote]
Well then my geographically challenged one, if the Pacific and Gulf of Mexico were not what you were talking about, that pretty much leaves the “we’d see illegals coming by boat” avenue to the lower Colorado River. I’ve been at the Colorado River where it enters Mexico; there are no boating opportunities for illegals there, buddy.[/quote]
Alright Push, I’m done quibbling with you over asinine things like this. I’ve fallen prey to your childish sophistry once again, but after this post I’m through. If you really feel that there would be no way whatsoever for Mexicans to sneak into this country via the ocean, then fine. If you really think that a huge wall would eliminate every passageway into this country except for tunnels (an very viable avenue that you ignorantly dismiss) then fine. But I’m not going to lend creedence to your arguments anymore on this subject as long as you continue to display such an infantile ability to evaluate the reality of the situation.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
…And if you think tunnels under the walls is some sort of wild assumption on my part or that there aren’t people going under the border via tunnel right now, you’re sorely mistaken. I worked for several years for a landscaper who hired tons of illegals and you know what? Every single one of them had come across the border via tunnel at some point or another. If you think that building wall footings deeper is an acceptable solution to this problem, you’re more far-gone than even I thought was possible…[/quote]
Tunnels would never be capable of serving as the sole conduits for the masses of illegals we see now. Never.[/quote]
You’re 100% correct on that one! If we built a wall, I’m sure that along with using tunnels, we’d see illegals coming by boat as well as some exotic means of smuggling.[/quote]
More geography ineptitude. Look at a map of North America and tell us how a maritime invasion of the US by Mexican illegals would work.[/quote]
While I look at a map, you look in my previous post and tell me where I suggested we’d be subjected to a maritime invasion.[/quote]
Well then my geographically challenged one, if the Pacific and Gulf of Mexico were not what you were talking about, that pretty much leaves the “we’d see illegals coming by boat” avenue to the lower Colorado River. I’ve been at the Colorado River where it enters Mexico; there are no boating opportunities for illegals there, buddy.[/quote]
Alright Push, I’m done quibbling with you over asinine things like this. I’ve fallen prey to your childish sophistry once again, but after this post I’m through. If you really feel that there would be no way whatsoever for Mexicans to sneak into this country via the ocean, then fine. If you really think that a huge wall would eliminate every passageway into this country except for tunnels (an very viable avenue that you ignorantly dismiss) then fine. But I’m not going to lend creedence to your arguments anymore on this subject as long as you continue to display such an infantile ability to evaluate the reality of the situation. [/quote]
I heard a great quote on Face Books , "Never argue with an IDIOT , he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience "
Coop,
Push is right about a maritime invasion, they have tried and not been very successful at all. I see stories in the LA Times about boats seized by the Coast Guard 30 miles from shore, in some cities like San Diego, La Jolla, Leucadia, and Encinitas. It’s just not a very feasible way to do it with the ease of our technology in detecting them. Some may go through, but nowhere even remotely close the to number who walk across the border.
Mexico needs to implode, then perhaps it has a chance, until then, highly unlikely that they will ever get on their feet with a corrupt and inept government and drug cartels running the show.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Coop,
Push is right about a maritime invasion, they have tried and not been very successful at all. I see stories in the LA Times about boats seized by the Coast Guard 30 miles from shore, in some cities like San Diego, La Jolla, Leucadia, and Encinitas. It’s just not a very feasible way to do it with the ease of our technology in detecting them. Some may go through, but nowhere even remotely close the to number who walk across the border.
Mexico needs to implode, then perhaps it has a chance, until then, highly unlikely that they will ever get on their feet with a corrupt and inept government and drug cartels running the show. [/quote]
Yeah, you’re right. My point was that as long as there is a reason for Mexicans to come here illegally in search of jobs, they’ll do so however they can. If we had a wall comprised of Marines standing arm to arm from one end of the border to the other, there’d be no way for illegals to come here across land. But under it, thru waterways, smuggling, fuck even air; they’d find some way to get here. The conditions in Mexico are so much poorer than they’ll probably ever be here that they’ll always have a reason to come here by any means available.
Now, we can make the means available disappear, but that would be a logistical nightmare that people like Push are in clear denial about. It would also open ourselves up to all sorts of problems from the international community should we enact measures such as building massive walls, shoot-on-sight policies and so on. Another factor that people like Push seem to refuse to accept.
The other way to end illegal immigration is to give them no reason to come here illegally. As long as there are Americans unwilling to work menial jobs for low wages we’ll always be somewhat dependent on cheap labor from Mexico. But illegal labor is costly to the state in the long and short run and making it severely punishable to hire illegals would remove the reason to come here illegally in the first place. I think that this method would be just as effective as a wall, but with less negative consequences for the country and without limiting the availability of cheap labor that we depend on.
I just read this article this morning on NYTimes.com. Pretty interesting and relevant to our interests on this thread. Thoughts?