[quote]opie wrote:
Why is it that the Federal Government can pick and choose what “Federal Laws” it wishes to enforce regarding the states. I was taught that federal law was the law of the country but each state was allowed to implement laws that were along the same guidelines, but stricter. Here we have states going against federal narcotics laws (marijuana) and allowing for the production and distribution of illegal substances, and the federal government says “That’s not a priority of ours.” On the other hand you have states that are simply enforcing federal and state laws that are already on the books, and because that contradicts a political agenda it’s alright?
Am I missing something? I think we are slowly undermining ourselves as a country.[/quote]
The truth is that obama doesn’t want to secure the boarders, he doesn’t want illegals gone, He wants to give them tax dollars, because he cares more for them than tax paying American citizens.[/quote]
I support the eradication of illegal immigration from this country, but the above statement is absolutely ridiculous. This is nothing more than another warped attempt to gain votes. It’s politics as usual for Obama, something he supposedly was the anti-thesis of. He doesn’t give a shit about illegal immigrants any more than anyone else does, but he certainly gives a shit about votes, and in his mind this attempt to usurp Arizona’s laws is a chance to gain some votes. Nothing more.
Regarding the Arizona law: while I believe that the existing law in Arizona should be enforced, I think there are better ways to go about ending massive illegal immigration. If you had a pile of shit in your house with a bunch of flies all over the place, would you swat at the flies or remove the pile of shit entirely? (And no Push I am not equating illegals with piles of shit or flies)
There is a huge incentive for illegals to risk life and limb to come here. Contrary to popular opinion on this forum, illegals don’t come here specifically to bilk the system and take advantage of the U.S. They come here because for them, there is no other option. No amount of arrests will deter them from continuing to sneak across the border because the incentive is so large compared to what is available to them in Mexico. The incentive is the piece of shit and it needs to be removed.
The Arizona law, while it makes sense in many ways, also serves to create divisiveness and it does not address the larger issue, which is why illegals come here in the first place despite all the inherent dangers. Along with enorcing current state laws, the govt should also enact some sort of legislature or something that fines into oblivion the American business owners who continually hire illegals despite the economic drain their presence in this country has become. It is them who provide the incentive for illegals to come here. As long as this country is in better shape than Mexico and there are people willing to risk a slap on the wrist in order to hire extremely cheap labor rather than hire their fellow Americans, the illegal immigrants will continue to come here. Obviously no one wants the country to slip below the status level of Mexico, so the only alternative is to remove the incentive. It makes more sense than simply jailing/deporting as many illegals as we can find (swatting at flies). Incarceration is expensive and we all know that deportation is not a significant deterrent.[/quote]
Trying to get votes? Really? That just doesn’t hold water. This is pissing of a majority of Americans. Look at the numbers:
[quote]opie wrote:
Why is it that the Federal Government can pick and choose what “Federal Laws” it wishes to enforce regarding the states. I was taught that federal law was the law of the country but each state was allowed to implement laws that were along the same guidelines, but stricter. Here we have states going against federal narcotics laws (marijuana) and allowing for the production and distribution of illegal substances, and the federal government says “That’s not a priority of ours.” On the other hand you have states that are simply enforcing federal and state laws that are already on the books, and because that contradicts a political agenda it’s alright?
Am I missing something? I think we are slowly undermining ourselves as a country.[/quote]
The truth is that obama doesn’t want to secure the boarders, he doesn’t want illegals gone, He wants to give them tax dollars, because he cares more for them than tax paying American citizens.[/quote]
I think it is more like he is trying to mobilize a large group that is notoriously nonvoting being the Legal Mexican Vote [/quote]
Then he’s an idiot trying to please a few people by pissing off a majority. Either way, It’s a waste of more tax dollars, and an immoral action.
I’m curious as to why someone would suggest that a wall wouldn’t work. Built on a sufficient scale, I believe it would.
On the other hand, I also think there should be a dead zone between the border and the wall that should be mined…and that sure isn’t going to happen.
I remember many years ago when the Berlin Wall fell. I suggested back then that they should have taken all those out of work border guards, brought them to the US, given them a place to live, new weapons and new fields of fire along the Mexican border. They would have been happier than the proverbial pigs in you-know-what. Better pay…US citizenship. It would have been a public relations success story.
[quote]opie wrote:
Why is it that the Federal Government can pick and choose what “Federal Laws” it wishes to enforce regarding the states. I was taught that federal law was the law of the country but each state was allowed to implement laws that were along the same guidelines, but stricter. Here we have states going against federal narcotics laws (marijuana) and allowing for the production and distribution of illegal substances, and the federal government says “That’s not a priority of ours.” On the other hand you have states that are simply enforcing federal and state laws that are already on the books, and because that contradicts a political agenda it’s alright?
Am I missing something? I think we are slowly undermining ourselves as a country.[/quote]
The truth is that obama doesn’t want to secure the boarders, he doesn’t want illegals gone, He wants to give them tax dollars, because he cares more for them than tax paying American citizens.[/quote]
I support the eradication of illegal immigration from this country, but the above statement is absolutely ridiculous. This is nothing more than another warped attempt to gain votes. It’s politics as usual for Obama, something he supposedly was the anti-thesis of. He doesn’t give a shit about illegal immigrants any more than anyone else does, but he certainly gives a shit about votes, and in his mind this attempt to usurp Arizona’s laws is a chance to gain some votes. Nothing more.
Regarding the Arizona law: while I believe that the existing law in Arizona should be enforced, I think there are better ways to go about ending massive illegal immigration. If you had a pile of shit in your house with a bunch of flies all over the place, would you swat at the flies or remove the pile of shit entirely? (And no Push I am not equating illegals with piles of shit or flies)
There is a huge incentive for illegals to risk life and limb to come here. Contrary to popular opinion on this forum, illegals don’t come here specifically to bilk the system and take advantage of the U.S. They come here because for them, there is no other option. No amount of arrests will deter them from continuing to sneak across the border because the incentive is so large compared to what is available to them in Mexico. The incentive is the piece of shit and it needs to be removed.
The Arizona law, while it makes sense in many ways, also serves to create divisiveness and it does not address the larger issue, which is why illegals come here in the first place despite all the inherent dangers. Along with enorcing current state laws, the govt should also enact some sort of legislature or something that fines into oblivion the American business owners who continually hire illegals despite the economic drain their presence in this country has become. It is them who provide the incentive for illegals to come here. As long as this country is in better shape than Mexico and there are people willing to risk a slap on the wrist in order to hire extremely cheap labor rather than hire their fellow Americans, the illegal immigrants will continue to come here. Obviously no one wants the country to slip below the status level of Mexico, so the only alternative is to remove the incentive. It makes more sense than simply jailing/deporting as many illegals as we can find (swatting at flies). Incarceration is expensive and we all know that deportation is not a significant deterrent.[/quote]
Trying to get votes? Really? That just doesn’t hold water. This is pissing of a majority of Americans. Look at the numbers:
Give me a break. What doesn’t hold water is your baseless assumption that Obama cares more about illegal immigrants than he does about the Americans who put him in office. He’s making a mistake here, albeit he probably thinks his intentions are good. I suppose if you really hate Obama it’s much more convenient for you to think that this is part of some conspiracy to keep the white man down or to ruin the country in some nefarious attempt to create some global NWO, rather than to accept the fact that he is simply making a mistake in an attempt to (in his mind) better the country. But this doesn’t fit into your narrow worldview so you like to believe that Obama is out to get us all because it lines up with your beliefs a little more snugly. When I hear hoofbeats, I think of horses, not zebras or in your case, centaurs.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I’m curious as to why someone would suggest that a wall wouldn’t work. Built on a sufficient scale, I believe it would.
On the other hand, I also think there should be a dead zone between the border and the wall that should be mined…and that sure isn’t going to happen.
I remember many years ago when the Berlin Wall fell. I suggested back then that they should have taken all those out of work border guards, brought them to the US, given them a place to live, new weapons and new fields of fire along the Mexican border. They would have been happier than the proverbial pigs in you-know-what. Better pay…US citizenship. It would have been a public relations success story.
Alas…[/quote]
Walls built to keep people out can also be used to keep people in.
There isn’t a simple answer to the immigration problem. DBCooper said “remove the incentive,” which I have to partly disagree with. An incentive to one person isn’t to another, there will always be people that want to come to this country, and so they should be allowed as long as they follow the rules and regulations that are there.
There are complaints that it takes entirely too long for people to go through the process, so they people that are petitioning to allow illegals in the country to stay, should be writing new regulations to hurry the process up. I don’t think that Obama cares more about illegals, but I do know he cares about his votes. I think that both sides can agree that he is appealing to a mass of people that haven’t really been targeted because the immigration topic has never been this hot, that I remember.
The problem that I see is not so much the immigration, but the lack of enforcement regarding the laws that are already in place. I was talking to a friend from Italy about political topics and the issue of immigration came up.
I, ignorantly believed, that Italy didn’t face a large immigration problem. I was corrected, with the information that they have a huge problem with African’s gaining entrance to the country illegally and a majority of them committing crimes to support themselves/families. The difference with Italy is, once they catch them, they are sent back to where they came from.
That isn’t a solution, but it is a deterrent that is shared by the majority of Europe. I think that the cost associated with implementing a program that sends the majority of illegals back will be huge, but it will also create jobs and therefore revenue. Once a program is established, and hopefully run properly, it could be successful (at what it does and that’s not stopping immigration as a whole)
Give me a break. What doesn’t hold water is your baseless assumption that Obama cares more about illegal immigrants than he does about the Americans who put him in office. He’s making a mistake here, albeit he probably thinks his intentions are good. I suppose if you really hate Obama it’s much more convenient for you to think that this is part of some conspiracy to keep the white man down or to ruin the country in some nefarious attempt to create some global NWO, rather than to accept the fact that he is simply making a mistake in an attempt to (in his mind) better the country. But this doesn’t fit into your narrow worldview so you like to believe that Obama is out to get us all because it lines up with your beliefs a little more snugly. When I hear hoofbeats, I think of horses, not zebras or in your case, centaurs.[/quote]
So you are arguing that heâ??s dumb rather than evil? And you just somehow know heâ??s trying to do good? Sounds like you have as many preconceived notions as I do. Do you really think he just didnâ??t think about how this is going to piss off most Americans?
I at least have numbers to essentially disprove your theory. If he is doing this to get votes, heâ??s a retard.
It is not this incident that has informed my opinion. He has a long track record. He is systematically attempting to destroy the American ideal.
And why did you bring up race? Do you naturally associate tax payer with whiteness, I said tax payer, you read that as “white man”? You sound like a racist asshole. And no one mentioned a â??NWOâ?? but you. So quit with the idiotic straw men.
When I hear hoof beats then turn around and see black and white strips I think zebra, not oddly birth marked horses.
Oh, and going after this law in order to garner votes with AMERICANS of Mexican ancestry (What I think you meant by “legal Mexicans”) is in no way shape or form an “attempt to (in his mind) better the country”. If what you are arguing were true it would just be an attempt stay in power, and there is nothing noble about that. People are being killed out there, our economy is collapsing, people are loosing jobs, maybe deciding based on the right and wrong of it would be a noble start.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Give me a break. What doesn’t hold water is your baseless assumption that Obama cares more about illegal immigrants than he does about the Americans who put him in office. .[/quote]
A. Healthcare Forced on us , which covers Illegals
B. Instead of securing the borders like 70% want, he sues AZ
C. He won’t even attempt secure a border untill Amnesty is completed
Hardly a baseless arguement. Additionally, the herd of people who DID put him in office have thinned drastically. He now needs illegals more than the citizens.
Additionally why sue AZ under the Supremecy clause when there are
A. Sanctuary cities? Are they bnot breaking the federal law?
b. Pot houses in CA. Does the Fed law making pot illegal trump any state attempts? Hummm???
Give me a break. What doesn’t hold water is your baseless assumption that Obama cares more about illegal immigrants than he does about the Americans who put him in office. He’s making a mistake here, albeit he probably thinks his intentions are good. I suppose if you really hate Obama it’s much more convenient for you to think that this is part of some conspiracy to keep the white man down or to ruin the country in some nefarious attempt to create some global NWO, rather than to accept the fact that he is simply making a mistake in an attempt to (in his mind) better the country. But this doesn’t fit into your narrow worldview so you like to believe that Obama is out to get us all because it lines up with your beliefs a little more snugly. When I hear hoofbeats, I think of horses, not zebras or in your case, centaurs.[/quote]
So you are arguing that heâ??s dumb rather than evil? And you just somehow know heâ??s trying to do good? Sounds like you have as many preconceived notions as I do. Do you really think he just didnâ??t think about how this is going to piss off most Americans?
I at least have numbers to essentially disprove your theory. If he is doing this to get votes, heâ??s a retard.
It is not this incident that has informed my opinion. He has a long track record. He is systematically attempting to destroy the American ideal.
And why did you bring up race? Do you naturally associate tax payer with whiteness, I said tax payer, you read that as “white man”? You sound like a racist asshole. And no one mentioned a â??NWOâ?? but you. So quit with the idiotic straw men.
When I hear hoof beats then turn around and see black and white strips I think zebra, not oddly birth marked horses.
Oh, and going after this law in order to garner votes with AMERICANS of Mexican ancestry (What I think you meant by “legal Mexicans”) is in no way shape or form an “attempt to (in his mind) better the country”. If what you are arguing were true it would just be an attempt stay in power, and there is nothing noble about that. People are being killed out there, our economy is collapsing, people are loosing jobs, maybe deciding based on the right and wrong of it would be a noble start.
[/quote]
Yes, I am arguing that he is stupid rather than evil, just like I believed Bush was stupid not evil. Your numbers disprove shit, and he while he certainly has a track record, it is short and nothing in it suggests that he values the opinions or welfare of illegal immigrants OVER Americans. Perhaps he values them both, and there is certainly room for him or any other President to value both, but I don’t believe for one second that he purposefully places American interests below those of illegal immigrants.
As for the “white man” comment and NWO comment, if I put words in your mouth I apologize. That was not my intent; I was simply repeating a common theme I hear amongst people who subscribe to the theory that Obama is inherently evil or places little value in the welfare of Americans. I didn’t mean to lump you specifically into that crowd.
I do believe that Obama is acting the way he is (in his mind) in an attempt at magnanimity. I think this attempt is far off-base. We have the same info available to us, but you have arrived at the conclusion that Obama cares more about illegals than he does Americans, whereas I have arrived at the conclusion that he is erroneously doing what he thinks is best for the country. Place these two assumptions next to each other and you tell me what is the more likely scenario. Where I see mistakes, you see intent.
Like I said earlier, it is much more convenient for you (and presents little to no challenge to your pre-conceived notions about liberalism, Dems and Obama) to think that Obama is “systematically destroying the American ideal” rather than accept that he may in fact have the country’s best interests at heart and is simply going about his business in the wrong way.
Based on your previous posts on various thread within this forum, you appear to hold to the theory that Democrats and liberals are hellbent on intentionally running this country into the ground to further their own liberal agenda. They may be running this country into the ground, but not intentionally. However, for you to accept that liberals and Dems are not on a specific mission or whatever you want to call it to fuck this country up presents a serious challenge to your rigid, pre-conceived notions, and it is a challenge you are clearly not up to.
Give me a break. What doesn’t hold water is your baseless assumption that Obama cares more about illegal immigrants than he does about the Americans who put him in office. He’s making a mistake here, albeit he probably thinks his intentions are good. I suppose if you really hate Obama it’s much more convenient for you to think that this is part of some conspiracy to keep the white man down or to ruin the country in some nefarious attempt to create some global NWO, rather than to accept the fact that he is simply making a mistake in an attempt to (in his mind) better the country. But this doesn’t fit into your narrow worldview so you like to believe that Obama is out to get us all because it lines up with your beliefs a little more snugly. When I hear hoofbeats, I think of horses, not zebras or in your case, centaurs.[/quote]
So you are arguing that he�¢??s dumb rather than evil? And you just somehow know he�¢??s trying to do good? Sounds like you have as many preconceived notions as I do. Do you really think he just didn�¢??t think about how this is going to piss off most Americans?
I at least have numbers to essentially disprove your theory. If he is doing this to get votes, he�¢??s a retard.
It is not this incident that has informed my opinion. He has a long track record. He is systematically attempting to destroy the American ideal.
And why did you bring up race? Do you naturally associate tax payer with whiteness, I said tax payer, you read that as “white man”? You sound like a racist asshole. And no one mentioned a Ã?¢??NWOÃ?¢?? but you. So quit with the idiotic straw men.
When I hear hoof beats then turn around and see black and white strips I think zebra, not oddly birth marked horses.
Oh, and going after this law in order to garner votes with AMERICANS of Mexican ancestry (What I think you meant by “legal Mexicans”) is in no way shape or form an “attempt to (in his mind) better the country”. If what you are arguing were true it would just be an attempt stay in power, and there is nothing noble about that. People are being killed out there, our economy is collapsing, people are loosing jobs, maybe deciding based on the right and wrong of it would be a noble start.
[/quote]
Yes, I am arguing that he is stupid rather than evil, just like I believed Bush was stupid not evil. Your numbers disprove shit, and he while he certainly has a track record, it is short and nothing in it suggests that he values the opinions or welfare of illegal immigrants OVER Americans. Perhaps he values them both, and there is certainly room for him or any other President to value both, but I don’t believe for one second that he purposefully places American interests below those of illegal immigrants.
[/quote]
When it is obvious to an elementary school student that what he is doing is going to lose him votes, it disproves that he’s doing it to get votes. At least thats how my mind works. The only logical conclusion I see is the one I mentioned. (oh, and bush was evil too)
Once again doing what he thinks will keep him in power is not even in the same ballpark as “whats best for the country”. You are arguing he’s making a selfish power grab, then claiming its doing what he feels is best for the country? Wrong. It’s an evil act if he is doing it for either the reason I believe OR the reason you believe. At best, he is doing what he thinks will get votes outside of what is actual justice.
Same deal as above.
[quote]
Based on your previous posts on various thread within this forum, you appear to hold to the theory that Democrats and liberals are hellbent on intentionally running this country into the ground to further their own liberal agenda. They may be running this country into the ground, but not intentionally. However, for you to accept that liberals and Dems are not on a specific mission or whatever you want to call it to fuck this country up presents a serious challenge to your rigid, pre-conceived notions, and it is a challenge you are clearly not up to.[/quote]
And you’re only counter is that they are running it in the ground for selfish reasons. You’ve yet to show in any way that it’s could be construed as the “best interest” for Americans, other than your apparent mind reading abilities. And I don’t limit my hatred to dems.
You admit they are destroying America but are arguing that they just haven’t figured out thats what they are doing yet. When I see repeated actions destroying something I begin to think that the intent must be to destroy. You can shoot someone once or twice in self defense, you shoot them 15 times and your intent was to kill.
A friend sent me this in an email and I checked it out at snopes.com
Presidents have done mass deportation of illegals in the past.
[u]What did Hoover, Truman, and Eisenhower have in common?[/u]
Here is something that should be of great interest for you to pass around.
I didn’t know of this until it was pointed out to me.
Back during The Great Depression, President Herbert Hoover ordered the
deportation of ALL illegal aliens in order to make jobs available to American
citizens that desperately needed work…
Harry Truman deported over two million Illegal’s after WWII to create jobs for returning veterans.
And then again in 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower deported 13 million
Mexican Nationals! The program was called ‘Operation Wetback’. It was
done so WWII and Korean Veterans would have a better chance at jobs.
It took 2 Years, but they deported them!
Now…if they could deport the illegal’s back then - they could sure do it today.
lf you have doubts about the veracity of this information, enter Operation
Wetback into your favorite search engine and confirm it for yourself.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Give me a break. What doesn’t hold water is your baseless assumption that Obama cares more about illegal immigrants than he does about the Americans who put him in office. .[/quote]
A. Healthcare Forced on us , which covers Illegals
B. Instead of securing the borders like 70% want, he sues AZ
C. He won’t even attempt secure a border untill Amnesty is completed
Hardly a baseless arguement. Additionally, the herd of people who DID put him in office have thinned drastically. He now needs illegals more than the citizens.
Additionally why sue AZ under the Supremecy clause when there are
A. Sanctuary cities? Are they bnot breaking the federal law?
b. Pot houses in CA. Does the Fed law making pot illegal trump any state attempts? Hummm???
Obama’s focus here tells the entire story.
[/quote]
If I were Govenor of AZ , i would sue the Fed for the cost of housing illegals. They owe us a lot of money
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Give me a break. What doesn’t hold water is your baseless assumption that Obama cares more about illegal immigrants than he does about the Americans who put him in office. .[/quote]
A. Healthcare Forced on us , which covers Illegals
B. Instead of securing the borders like 70% want, he sues AZ
C. He won’t even attempt secure a border untill Amnesty is completed
Hardly a baseless arguement. Additionally, the herd of people who DID put him in office have thinned drastically. He now needs illegals more than the citizens.
Additionally why sue AZ under the Supremecy clause when there are
A. Sanctuary cities? Are they bnot breaking the federal law?
b. Pot houses in CA. Does the Fed law making pot illegal trump any state attempts? Hummm???
Obama’s focus here tells the entire story.
[/quote]
If I were Govenor of AZ , i would sue the Fed for the cost of housing illegals. They owe us a lot of money[/quote]
The border states have submitted their costs to the federal government for reimbursement and those requests have been ignored.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Give me a break. What doesn’t hold water is your baseless assumption that Obama cares more about illegal immigrants than he does about the Americans who put him in office. .[/quote]
A. Healthcare Forced on us , which covers Illegals
B. Instead of securing the borders like 70% want, he sues AZ
C. He won’t even attempt secure a border untill Amnesty is completed
Hardly a baseless arguement. Additionally, the herd of people who DID put him in office have thinned drastically. He now needs illegals more than the citizens.
Additionally why sue AZ under the Supremecy clause when there are
A. Sanctuary cities? Are they bnot breaking the federal law?
b. Pot houses in CA. Does the Fed law making pot illegal trump any state attempts? Hummm???
Obama’s focus here tells the entire story.
[/quote]
If I were Govenor of AZ , i would sue the Fed for the cost of housing illegals. They owe us a lot of money[/quote]
The border states have submitted their costs to the federal government for reimbursement and those requests have been ignored.[/quote]
$113 BILLION total, all states …in one year.
California has a 19B deficit and cannot balance their budget
Cali Illegal cost are 21B a year…yet we ignore this.
If we solved that ONE problem we would have a 2B SURPULS without cutting ANY programs otside the costs of maintaining illegals… Our Country and state is insane. Helping others to our own severe detriment.
Give me a break. What doesn’t hold water is your baseless assumption that Obama cares more about illegal immigrants than he does about the Americans who put him in office. He’s making a mistake here, albeit he probably thinks his intentions are good. I suppose if you really hate Obama it’s much more convenient for you to think that this is part of some conspiracy to keep the white man down or to ruin the country in some nefarious attempt to create some global NWO, rather than to accept the fact that he is simply making a mistake in an attempt to (in his mind) better the country. But this doesn’t fit into your narrow worldview so you like to believe that Obama is out to get us all because it lines up with your beliefs a little more snugly. When I hear hoofbeats, I think of horses, not zebras or in your case, centaurs.[/quote]
So you are arguing that he�?�¢??s dumb rather than evil? And you just somehow know he�?�¢??s trying to do good? Sounds like you have as many preconceived notions as I do. Do you really think he just didn�?�¢??t think about how this is going to piss off most Americans?
I at least have numbers to essentially disprove your theory. If he is doing this to get votes, he�?�¢??s a retard.
It is not this incident that has informed my opinion. He has a long track record. He is systematically attempting to destroy the American ideal.
And why did you bring up race? Do you naturally associate tax payer with whiteness, I said tax payer, you read that as “white man”? You sound like a racist asshole. And no one mentioned a Ã??Ã?¢??NWOÃ??Ã?¢?? but you. So quit with the idiotic straw men.
When I hear hoof beats then turn around and see black and white strips I think zebra, not oddly birth marked horses.
Oh, and going after this law in order to garner votes with AMERICANS of Mexican ancestry (What I think you meant by “legal Mexicans”) is in no way shape or form an “attempt to (in his mind) better the country”. If what you are arguing were true it would just be an attempt stay in power, and there is nothing noble about that. People are being killed out there, our economy is collapsing, people are loosing jobs, maybe deciding based on the right and wrong of it would be a noble start.
[/quote]
Yes, I am arguing that he is stupid rather than evil, just like I believed Bush was stupid not evil. Your numbers disprove shit, and he while he certainly has a track record, it is short and nothing in it suggests that he values the opinions or welfare of illegal immigrants OVER Americans. Perhaps he values them both, and there is certainly room for him or any other President to value both, but I don’t believe for one second that he purposefully places American interests below those of illegal immigrants.
[/quote]
When it is obvious to an elementary school student that what he is doing is going to lose him votes, it disproves that he’s doing it to get votes. At least thats how my mind works. The only logical conclusion I see is the one I mentioned. (oh, and bush was evil too)
Once again doing what he thinks will keep him in power is not even in the same ballpark as “whats best for the country”. You are arguing he’s making a selfish power grab, then claiming its doing what he feels is best for the country? Wrong. It’s an evil act if he is doing it for either the reason I believe OR the reason you believe. At best, he is doing what he thinks will get votes outside of what is actual justice.
Same deal as above.
[quote]
Based on your previous posts on various thread within this forum, you appear to hold to the theory that Democrats and liberals are hellbent on intentionally running this country into the ground to further their own liberal agenda. They may be running this country into the ground, but not intentionally. However, for you to accept that liberals and Dems are not on a specific mission or whatever you want to call it to fuck this country up presents a serious challenge to your rigid, pre-conceived notions, and it is a challenge you are clearly not up to.[/quote]
And you’re only counter is that they are running it in the ground for selfish reasons. You’ve yet to show in any way that it’s could be construed as the “best interest” for Americans, other than your apparent mind reading abilities. And I don’t limit my hatred to dems.
You admit they are destroying America but are arguing that they just haven’t figured out thats what they are doing yet. When I see repeated actions destroying something I begin to think that the intent must be to destroy. You can shoot someone once or twice in self defense, you shoot them 15 times and your intent was to kill. [/quote]
Obama, like anyone else, most likely thinks that if what he does is best for the country, it will garner him more votes in the next election. If he has a vision for what he thinks is best for the country, he can hardly enact this vision if he is not the President anymore. He’s not doing what he’s doing to remain in power for power’s sake; he’s doing what he’s doing to remain in power because it is while he is in power that he has the best chance to enact what he feels are positive changes for the country.
Obviously I have no concrete evidence to back this up, but you have no evidence to back your claims up either. The evidence you have provided does not support the theory that Obama wants power for power’s sake; you have interpreted it in a way that fits into your view of things. I am guilty of the same things, and I freely admit it. But again, I believe that of the two scenarios (yours and mine), mine is the far more likely one.
If you want to continue to believe that people who continually make the same mistakes only do so because of some underlying evil quality, then fine. But the reality is that we all make mistake after mistake after mistake in our lives without realizing that we are making them. We are all also guilty to some degree or at some point in our lives of making the same mistake over and over again and expecting a different result each time. This is insanity; it is not a systematic, intentional destruction of the American ideal.
Give me a break. What doesn’t hold water is your baseless assumption that Obama cares more about illegal immigrants than he does about the Americans who put him in office. He’s making a mistake here, albeit he probably thinks his intentions are good. I suppose if you really hate Obama it’s much more convenient for you to think that this is part of some conspiracy to keep the white man down or to ruin the country in some nefarious attempt to create some global NWO, rather than to accept the fact that he is simply making a mistake in an attempt to (in his mind) better the country. But this doesn’t fit into your narrow worldview so you like to believe that Obama is out to get us all because it lines up with your beliefs a little more snugly. When I hear hoofbeats, I think of horses, not zebras or in your case, centaurs.[/quote]
So you are arguing that he�??�?�¢??s dumb rather than evil? And you just somehow know he�??�?�¢??s trying to do good? Sounds like you have as many preconceived notions as I do. Do you really think he just didn�??�?�¢??t think about how this is going to piss off most Americans?
I at least have numbers to essentially disprove your theory. If he is doing this to get votes, he�??�?�¢??s a retard.
It is not this incident that has informed my opinion. He has a long track record. He is systematically attempting to destroy the American ideal.
And why did you bring up race? Do you naturally associate tax payer with whiteness, I said tax payer, you read that as “white man”? You sound like a racist asshole. And no one mentioned a Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??NWOÃ???Ã??Ã?¢?? but you. So quit with the idiotic straw men.
When I hear hoof beats then turn around and see black and white strips I think zebra, not oddly birth marked horses.
Oh, and going after this law in order to garner votes with AMERICANS of Mexican ancestry (What I think you meant by “legal Mexicans”) is in no way shape or form an “attempt to (in his mind) better the country”. If what you are arguing were true it would just be an attempt stay in power, and there is nothing noble about that. People are being killed out there, our economy is collapsing, people are loosing jobs, maybe deciding based on the right and wrong of it would be a noble start.
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Yes, I am arguing that he is stupid rather than evil, just like I believed Bush was stupid not evil. Your numbers disprove shit, and he while he certainly has a track record, it is short and nothing in it suggests that he values the opinions or welfare of illegal immigrants OVER Americans. Perhaps he values them both, and there is certainly room for him or any other President to value both, but I don’t believe for one second that he purposefully places American interests below those of illegal immigrants.
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When it is obvious to an elementary school student that what he is doing is going to lose him votes, it disproves that he’s doing it to get votes. At least thats how my mind works. The only logical conclusion I see is the one I mentioned. (oh, and bush was evil too)
Once again doing what he thinks will keep him in power is not even in the same ballpark as “whats best for the country”. You are arguing he’s making a selfish power grab, then claiming its doing what he feels is best for the country? Wrong. It’s an evil act if he is doing it for either the reason I believe OR the reason you believe. At best, he is doing what he thinks will get votes outside of what is actual justice.
Same deal as above.
[quote]
Based on your previous posts on various thread within this forum, you appear to hold to the theory that Democrats and liberals are hellbent on intentionally running this country into the ground to further their own liberal agenda. They may be running this country into the ground, but not intentionally. However, for you to accept that liberals and Dems are not on a specific mission or whatever you want to call it to fuck this country up presents a serious challenge to your rigid, pre-conceived notions, and it is a challenge you are clearly not up to.[/quote]
And you’re only counter is that they are running it in the ground for selfish reasons. You’ve yet to show in any way that it’s could be construed as the “best interest” for Americans, other than your apparent mind reading abilities. And I don’t limit my hatred to dems.
You admit they are destroying America but are arguing that they just haven’t figured out thats what they are doing yet. When I see repeated actions destroying something I begin to think that the intent must be to destroy. You can shoot someone once or twice in self defense, you shoot them 15 times and your intent was to kill. [/quote]
Obama, like anyone else, most likely thinks that if what he does is best for the country, it will garner him more votes in the next election. If he has a vision for what he thinks is best for the country, he can hardly enact this vision if he is not the President anymore. He’s not doing what he’s doing to remain in power for power’s sake; he’s doing what he’s doing to remain in power because it is while he is in power that he has the best chance to enact what he feels are positive changes for the country.
Obviously I have no concrete evidence to back this up, but you have no evidence to back your claims up either. The evidence you have provided does not support the theory that Obama wants power for power’s sake; you have interpreted it in a way that fits into your view of things. I am guilty of the same things, and I freely admit it. But again, I believe that of the two scenarios (yours and mine), mine is the far more likely one.
If you want to continue to believe that people who continually make the same mistakes only do so because of some underlying evil quality, then fine. But the reality is that we all make mistake after mistake after mistake in our lives without realizing that we are making them. We are all also guilty to some degree or at some point in our lives of making the same mistake over and over again and expecting a different result each time. This is insanity; it is not a systematic, intentional destruction of the American ideal.[/quote]
Like I said. You can go on believing shooting someone 15 times is self defense if that seems more “reasonable” to you.
DoubleDuce: Your analogy about shooting someone 15x is nowhere close to being relevant to the discussion. At any rate, we’re both simply spinning our wheels here. I’m not talking about shooting someone. I’m talking about mistakes that are being made with (giving Obama the benefit of the doubt) good intentions behind them. You seem to think that these mistakes are really an intentional destruction of the American ideal, which is fine. Do you even allow for the possibility that Obama is not bent on destroying the American ideal, or is this simply an impossibility for you?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
DoubleDuce: Your analogy about shooting someone 15x is nowhere close to being relevant to the discussion. At any rate, we’re both simply spinning our wheels here. I’m not talking about shooting someone. I’m talking about mistakes that are being made with (giving Obama the benefit of the doubt) good intentions behind them. You seem to think that these mistakes are really an intentional destruction of the American ideal, which is fine. Do you even allow for the possibility that Obama is not bent on destroying the American ideal, or is this simply an impossibility for you?[/quote]
I consider even his official agenda and goals to be the destruction of the American Ideal, so considering that maybe he doesn’t intend to is not necessary.
And you are talking about what you believe are mistakes.
“giving Obama the benefit of the doubt” - and I am the pre-deposed one? This is our impasse.
I can’t wait til the genius author of the Arizona Law, Kris Kobach, points out how Obama and his administration are breaking Federal Law by endorsing sanctuary city policies. How he is picking and choosing which federal laws are being enforced and which aren’t. Obama fucked with the wrong guy, the people behind the AZ law are not simple activists, this thing was crafted knowing full well it would be challenged in court. Much of what is in the law has already been upheld by the most liberal 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
I am calling this now, Obama and his cronies lose in the lawsuit. After he loses the lawsuit, embarrasses himself to the point of no return, we will see the single handed dismantling of his presidency. He shoved health care down our throats, hasn’t done shit for jobs, added insane amounts to the debt, pissed off alot of people who want the law, hasn’t done shit for those who voted for him (he failed to deliver his amnesty.)
The bloom is off the rose with this man. What he had in 2008, was his mystique, but that is gone now. We know what he is about, and he is full of shit like every other president we have had. Conservatives and the Republican Party should be looking for a strong candidate at this point, because the presidency is up for the taking. Come November, watch Obama get his ass handed to him.