Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:
I used to be a Christian. Baptist to be exact. In fact I thought I wanted to be in the ministry some how. I grew up in the church and attended regularly until I was about 36. That’s all changed in the last 3-4 years.

There are lot’s of things that have changed me. First, I still believe that we might be spirit etc… (Ghosts) but I don’t believe that Christians have the market cornered on religion nor any other religion for that matter.

For me leaving Christianity was simple after you start to think about it. I’ll tell you that very few Christians have actually read the entire Bible. If they did and started in the old testament that would probably be enough to change their viewpoint. There is raping, killing, abortion all in the name of God and for God. If you read the passages it’s very easy to see all this was written by man and not inspired by God. Noah’s arc makes no sense what so ever and the garden of eden and creation stories don’t either.

To me if you can’t believe the Bible is inspired as it’s supposed to be then the basis of faith in what it says is gone. We don’t even have the original manuscripts. There copies of copies of copies. Also there have been changes made to these copies. Remember the verse that say’s “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”? Christian scholars now totally agree this was added by a scribe and they actually know the name of the scribe.

Religion is a way to make people do thing’s they should be doing anyway which is helping your fellow human and doing what’s right. Also, all common sense goes out the door when religion is involved. [/quote]

Did we read the same Bible? If your common sense went out the door when you were a Christian it is no wonder that you lost your faith. faith and reason are inseperable in the enlightened mind.

162

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
This could become a good thread after all . . .[/quote]

This is PWI, give it time. This thread will become an example of a cyber poo-flinging match. Totally inevitable.[/quote]

I hope we keep this pretty civilized. If people are willing to discuss, not convert, and not argue, then this will be a really good thread. Christians are going to believe what they believe, Atheists are going to believe what they believe, and all the others will believe what they believe. I personally do not want to have a who is better contest. Some call it whose dick is bigger contest.

163

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:
The thing about these religious threads are, for the most part, the only people involved are those with views so profound that they would never possibly change them. Its like arguing with a retard who’s parents told him his shit is concentrated evil. You ain’t going to change his views with reason and absolute logic vs blind faith. That said I am fucking amaaaaaaazed at how thoroughly people can be brainwashed by a religion(or government) from an early age. Far be it from me to pull the holier than though but to be an actual “Christian” or “Muslim”, ect, I see as the sign of a weak minded person. To not be able to question something that has no evidence and is so goddamn illogical is alarming. Lowest common denominator, man.

And for what its worth I am definitely not calling all strict Christians/ect unintelligent. I think some people have just invested so much into the bullshit they believe it would be a near fatal blow to their pride to reconsider. Hell if I gave 10% of my earnings to my “god” for my whole life I’d be goddamn pressed to say it was in vain - not that their are very man true Christians who give nearly that much.

Again for what its worth, I was a damn good little Christian, untill I picked up the bible and fucking actually read it. How anyone could read that book and offer praise to its god is far beyond me. I wouldn’t offer my worship to that god if he was real and the universe creator. I’d rather go to hell and kick it with Satan. I believe he’d have a nice spot for me next to him, kickin’ back sippin’ brews, chucking some fireballs at some child molesters.

Anyway, I still find myself reading these threads and listening to anyone willing to preach on religion; just looking for a scrap of something to cling to in order to find faith. I’ve looked thoroughly for something like that and I’ll tell ya, I sure as hell have not find it in the least. What I’m saying is I wish their was some God I could worship; what better purpose in life than bettering your God? I just sure have not found this God and judging from these asinine threads or listening to the illogical, often downright false preachings of these religious scholars - neither has anyone else.[/quote]

18 years old and you have everything all figured out, huh? You go git 'em, tiger.[/quote]

Is that what you got out of that? Read it again old man. I was asking anyone to tell me why I should worship their god. I am LOOKING for a goddamn excuse to do so. You think anybody likes not having faith? I’m just not a fucking mindless moron who will offer his worship to a false god. Give me a logical reason to worship a god and see if I don’t do so. In my 18 years I have yet to hear 1 goddamn person give 1 goddamn logical reason to offer worship to their god.
[/quote]

I consider myself a pantheist. My god is the universe. You should worship the universe because (a) you can’t deny its existence (since you would have to exist in order to deny it, and even if only you exist, then that’s the universe and it exists :stuck_out_tongue: ), and (b) it contains lots of beautiful women.

Think about it. [/quote]

So since you can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the universe it exists? Not trying to be an ass, but what if your senses were wrong?
[/quote]

Then my senses would have to exist to have the chance to be wrong, and would need a universe to exist within (or be their own universe)

[quote]

Can you see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the wind? I guess you can smell it if you are breaking wind, but I digress. We can only see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the affects of the wind. The same is true for God of the Bible.

I have never been out side the atmosphere, so how can I accept outerspace if I have not been outside the atmosphere. I have to go on faith that NASA is telling me the truth. You see where my argument is going? It takes faith in certain things for me to beleive a lot of stuff that is going on in the world. I believe the Bible because the people that wrote it had a personal expirience with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. That is the same for people that have faith that science is right. They have faith that people smarter than themselves found this proof that X hypothesis is correct.[/quote]

Again, we’re getting into faith with reason and faith against reason. You believe in outerspace because you have no logical reason not to, and believing that it exists aligns with all the available data you have. So you have faith, even though you’ve never seen it, and that faith is supported by reason.

There are many things in the bible that go against reason when you try to believe them in a literal interpretation. Deciding that you believe the bible to be totally correct, and therefore forcing yourself to believe everything in it, even when you have data that contradicts it, is faith without reason.

I have more reason to believe that France exists, even though I cant see it and have never been there, than to believe that an omnipotent deity exists because someone else a thousand years dead is said to have had a personal experience (when I’m getting the story after several hundred years of retellings and translation changes).

Question for you: Why doesn’t God just talk to you directly? Why are all the stories of God talking directly to someone or burning bushes or making other big showy displays of power always thousands of years old, and never happen these days?[/quote]

Good post.

I am going to use the Bible, which many on here to not beleive, but to answer your question. It is because God has sent the Holy Spirit to us. That is how he speaks to us today. Do I hear an audible voice telling me that what I beleive is right? No, but I do sence his precense when I am spending time with God. I know he is leading me.

In this day in time if you went to the Doctor and said, “Doc I was walking in the backyard when all of a sudden my bush caught on fire, but it was not consumed. Then I heard this voice saying go to Iraq and free my people.” What do you think the Doc is going to do to you? Yeah that is right put you in a mental facility. Our enlightenment has deminished the supernatural to nothingness.

I also would like to hear what an atheist has to say about ghosts. Just so you all know ghosts are Biblical. They are conjured by mediums, that are frowned upon by God, but I do believe they do exist.[/quote]

And so does the catholic church, which I learned of very intimately at my time at a Jesuit Prep School.

I have also been very close with people who believe they spoke with Satan(along with acquaintances to Catholic Church appointed exorcists). Maybe Satan is just more modest than god and takes time out for the little people but it was obvious they felt his presence more than they have ever felt the presence of god.

164

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
This could become a good thread after all . . .[/quote]

This is PWI, give it time. This thread will become an example of a cyber poo-flinging match. Totally inevitable.[/quote]

Yes, I fear your right. All too often, the non-beleivers and beleivers alike only ask questions to prove their point, rather than to seek understanding of the other’s POV

165

CappedAndPlanIT = captain planet - LOL whew . . .I’m slow on the uptake . . .

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[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:
The thing about these religious threads are, for the most part, the only people involved are those with views so profound that they would never possibly change them. Its like arguing with a retard who’s parents told him his shit is concentrated evil. You ain’t going to change his views with reason and absolute logic vs blind faith. That said I am fucking amaaaaaaazed at how thoroughly people can be brainwashed by a religion(or government) from an early age. Far be it from me to pull the holier than though but to be an actual “Christian” or “Muslim”, ect, I see as the sign of a weak minded person. To not be able to question something that has no evidence and is so goddamn illogical is alarming. Lowest common denominator, man.

And for what its worth I am definitely not calling all strict Christians/ect unintelligent. I think some people have just invested so much into the bullshit they believe it would be a near fatal blow to their pride to reconsider. Hell if I gave 10% of my earnings to my “god” for my whole life I’d be goddamn pressed to say it was in vain - not that their are very man true Christians who give nearly that much.

Again for what its worth, I was a damn good little Christian, untill I picked up the bible and fucking actually read it. How anyone could read that book and offer praise to its god is far beyond me. I wouldn’t offer my worship to that god if he was real and the universe creator. I’d rather go to hell and kick it with Satan. I believe he’d have a nice spot for me next to him, kickin’ back sippin’ brews, chucking some fireballs at some child molesters.

Anyway, I still find myself reading these threads and listening to anyone willing to preach on religion; just looking for a scrap of something to cling to in order to find faith. I’ve looked thoroughly for something like that and I’ll tell ya, I sure as hell have not find it in the least. What I’m saying is I wish their was some God I could worship; what better purpose in life than bettering your God? I just sure have not found this God and judging from these asinine threads or listening to the illogical, often downright false preachings of these religious scholars - neither has anyone else.[/quote]

18 years old and you have everything all figured out, huh? You go git 'em, tiger.[/quote]

Is that what you got out of that? Read it again old man. I was asking anyone to tell me why I should worship their god. I am LOOKING for a goddamn excuse to do so. You think anybody likes not having faith? I’m just not a fucking mindless moron who will offer his worship to a false god. Give me a logical reason to worship a god and see if I don’t do so. In my 18 years I have yet to hear 1 goddamn person give 1 goddamn logical reason to offer worship to their god.
[/quote]

I consider myself a pantheist. My god is the universe. You should worship the universe because (a) you can’t deny its existence (since you would have to exist in order to deny it, and even if only you exist, then that’s the universe and it exists :stuck_out_tongue: ), and (b) it contains lots of beautiful women.

Think about it. [/quote]

So since you can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the universe it exists? Not trying to be an ass, but what if your senses were wrong?
[/quote]

Then my senses would have to exist to have the chance to be wrong, and would need a universe to exist within (or be their own universe)

[quote]

Can you see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the wind? I guess you can smell it if you are breaking wind, but I digress. We can only see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the affects of the wind. The same is true for God of the Bible.

I have never been out side the atmosphere, so how can I accept outerspace if I have not been outside the atmosphere. I have to go on faith that NASA is telling me the truth. You see where my argument is going? It takes faith in certain things for me to beleive a lot of stuff that is going on in the world. I believe the Bible because the people that wrote it had a personal expirience with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. That is the same for people that have faith that science is right. They have faith that people smarter than themselves found this proof that X hypothesis is correct.[/quote]

Again, we’re getting into faith with reason and faith against reason. You believe in outerspace because you have no logical reason not to, and believing that it exists aligns with all the available data you have. So you have faith, even though you’ve never seen it, and that faith is supported by reason.

There are many things in the bible that go against reason when you try to believe them in a literal interpretation. Deciding that you believe the bible to be totally correct, and therefore forcing yourself to believe everything in it, even when you have data that contradicts it, is faith without reason.

I have more reason to believe that France exists, even though I cant see it and have never been there, than to believe that an omnipotent deity exists because someone else a thousand years dead is said to have had a personal experience (when I’m getting the story after several hundred years of retellings and translation changes).

Question for you: Why doesn’t God just talk to you directly? Why are all the stories of God talking directly to someone or burning bushes or making other big showy displays of power always thousands of years old, and never happen these days?[/quote]

Good post.

I am going to use the Bible, which many on here to not beleive, but to answer your question. It is because God has sent the Holy Spirit to us. That is how he speaks to us today. Do I hear an audible voice telling me that what I beleive is right? No, but I do sence his precense when I am spending time with God. I know he is leading me.

In this day in time if you went to the Doctor and said, “Doc I was walking in the backyard when all of a sudden my bush caught on fire, but it was not consumed. Then I heard this voice saying go to Iraq and free my people.” What do you think the Doc is going to do to you? Yeah that is right put you in a mental facility. Our enlightenment has deminished the supernatural to nothingness.

I also would like to hear what an atheist has to say about ghosts. Just so you all know ghosts are Biblical. They are conjured by mediums, that are frowned upon by God, but I do believe they do exist.[/quote]

And so does the catholic church, which I learned of very intimately at my time at a Jesuit Prep School.[/quote]

I was raised Southern Baptist, so you have an idea of what my church beleives about the Roman Catholic Church. I have tried to put that aside, and understand where the Catholics are coming from. My wife was raised Catholic, but I would call her family at the time Easter and Christmas Catholic. You know what I mean. I would like to know more about others POV so I really hope this thread does not spiral down like the others I have been apart of. I am the main factor of why they go down hill, so I will try and refrain from being an ass.

167

And so was I, raised a Southern Baptist. Anyway I’m not sure what you were asking but the POV of the Catholic Church? Or of the average catholic, because the average catholic probably shares the exact same views as the average Baptist. Ask the average catholic if they know that there is supposed to be an exorcist appointed to every parish(in today’s economy this is not always possible).

Anyway the average catholic is in NO way enlightened to what the highers in their church actually believe. The bible? Like a framework for this intricate system of beliefs they have put together over the last 2000 years. Some weird shit honestly.

168

[quote]Deorum wrote:
And so was I, raised a Southern Baptist. Anyway I’m not sure what you were asking but the POV of the Catholic Church? Or of the average catholic, because the average catholic probably shares the exact same views as the average Baptist. Ask the average catholic if they know that there is supposed to be an exorcist appointed to every parish(in today’s economy this is not always possible). Anyway the average catholic is in NO way enlightened to what the highers in their church actually believe. The bible? Like a framework for this intricate system of beliefs they have put together over the last 2000 years. Some weird shit honestly.[/quote]

Good point. Never really thought of it that way. Thanks for your insite.

You had mentioned you went to Catholic school, so I just assumed you were raised Catholic. My bad.

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[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:
I used to be a Christian. Baptist to be exact. In fact I thought I wanted to be in the ministry some how. I grew up in the church and attended regularly until I was about 36. That’s all changed in the last 3-4 years.

There are lot’s of things that have changed me. First, I still believe that we might be spirit etc… (Ghosts) but I don’t believe that Christians have the market cornered on religion nor any other religion for that matter.

For me leaving Christianity was simple after you start to think about it. I’ll tell you that very few Christians have actually read the entire Bible. If they did and started in the old testament that would probably be enough to change their viewpoint. There is raping, killing, abortion all in the name of God and for God. If you read the passages it’s very easy to see all this was written by man and not inspired by God. Noah’s arc makes no sense what so ever and the garden of eden and creation stories don’t either.

To me if you can’t believe the Bible is inspired as it’s supposed to be then the basis of faith in what it says is gone. We don’t even have the original manuscripts. There copies of copies of copies. Also there have been changes made to these copies. Remember the verse that say’s “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”? Christian scholars now totally agree this was added by a scribe and they actually know the name of the scribe.

Religion is a way to make people do thing’s they should be doing anyway which is helping your fellow human and doing what’s right. Also, all common sense goes out the door when religion is involved. [/quote]

Did we read the same Bible? If your common sense went out the door when you were a Christian it is no wonder that you lost your faith. faith and reason are inseperable in the enlightened mind.
[/quote]

What do you mean by this? The reason I said that is this. Christians would have you believe that we were created for fellowship with God. That he was lonely and “wanted” us. So, you have this all powerful all knowing being that’s ALWAY’S been here and all of a sudden he has a hunkering for a friend? Then he creates these people for friendship but don’t eat from that tree! Then the only way this all powewrful being can save them from their downfall is to send his son to die? It’s poppy cock. Common sense tell’s you this is a man made story. These are men’s emotions and men’s understanding not the doing’s of an all powerful, all knowing being that created everything.

I’m not saying we aren’t greater than our physical bodies and there’s not spirits and possibly the bid spirit in the sky. It’s just not the way the Bible or any other religion say’s it is. IF I had to pick I would more than likely pick Taoism as a path to follow.

The earth has been here Billions of years. Look how far we’ve come in only 200 years? I would think it’s more plausible that we’ve been planted by aliens billions of years older than us rather than the way the Bible say’s we’ve come about.

You have to lose your common sense to believe what the Bible says.

170

[quote]Deorum wrote:
And so was I, raised a Southern Baptist. Anyway I’m not sure what you were asking but the POV of the Catholic Church? Or of the average catholic, because the average catholic probably shares the exact same views as the average Baptist. Ask the average catholic if they know that there is supposed to be an exorcist appointed to every parish(in today’s economy this is not always possible). Anyway the average catholic is in NO way enlightened to what the highers in their church actually believe. The bible? Like a framework for this intricate system of beliefs they have put together over the last 2000 years. Some weird shit honestly.[/quote]

That’s a pretty common problem actually - I doubt if 5 in 100 Baptists could actually list the 8 Baptist Distinctives either, let alone explain most of the doctrines of the church - definitely a sad situation.

171

[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:

What do you mean by this? The reason I said that is this. Christians would have you believe that we were created for fellowship with God. That he was lonely and “wanted” us. So, you have this all powerful all knowing being that’s ALWAY’S been here and all of a sudden he has a hunkering for a friend? Then he creates these people for friendship but don’t eat from that tree! Then the only way this all powewrful being can save them from their downfall is to send his son to die? It’s poppy cock. Common sense tell’s you this is a man made story. These are men’s emotions and men’s understanding not the doing’s of an all powerful, all knowing being that created everything.

I’m not saying we aren’t greater than our physical bodies and there’s not spirits and possibly the bid spirit in the sky. It’s just not the way the Bible or any other religion say’s it is. IF I had to pick I would more than likely pick Taoism as a path to follow.

The earth has been here Billions of years. Look how far we’ve come in only 200 years? I would think it’s more plausible that we’ve been planted by aliens billions of years older than us rather than the way the Bible say’s we’ve come about.

You have to lose your common sense to believe what the Bible says.[/quote]

No - the Bible never said God was “lonely and wanted us” - it states he created mankind and all creation to glorify himself - huge difference.

In order for mankind to demonstrate that his love for God was based on man’s choice alone, God created man with free will and put him into an environment where he could choose to love God or not free of any restrictions on his soul - and the first man and woman (and every individual since, except Jesus) has chosen love for self over love for God.

But since God loved man without and was not willing for each person’s choice be the final condemnation for that individual - he provided an avenue full of myriad opportunities to choose to avoid the natural consequence of that person’s original choice.

I do not see man’s emotions anywhere in this story. Where do you?

Taoism? Awesome - it was my study of the Tao that brought me back to Christianity. I still consider myself a Taoist Buddhist Christian . . . just to be specific.

I have no problem with the earth being aged at a billion years - not a problem in my undertanding of Scripture.

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[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:

What do you mean by this? The reason I said that is this. Christians would have you believe that we were created for fellowship with God. That he was lonely and “wanted” us. So, you have this all powerful all knowing being that’s ALWAY’S been here and all of a sudden he has a hunkering for a friend? Then he creates these people for friendship but don’t eat from that tree! Then the only way this all powewrful being can save them from their downfall is to send his son to die? It’s poppy cock. Common sense tell’s you this is a man made story. These are men’s emotions and men’s understanding not the doing’s of an all powerful, all knowing being that created everything.

I’m not saying we aren’t greater than our physical bodies and there’s not spirits and possibly the bid spirit in the sky. It’s just not the way the Bible or any other religion say’s it is. IF I had to pick I would more than likely pick Taoism as a path to follow.

The earth has been here Billions of years. Look how far we’ve come in only 200 years? I would think it’s more plausible that we’ve been planted by aliens billions of years older than us rather than the way the Bible say’s we’ve come about.

You have to lose your common sense to believe what the Bible says.[/quote]

No - the Bible never said God was “lonely and wanted us” - it states he created mankind and all creation to glorify himself - huge difference.

In order for mankind to demonstrate that his love for God was based on man’s choice alone, God created man with free will and put him into an environment where he could choose to love God or not free of any restrictions on his soul - and the first man and woman (and every individual since, except Jesus) has chosen love for self over love for God.

But since God loved man without and was not willing for each person’s choice be the final condemnation for that individual - he provided an avenue full of myriad opportunities to choose to avoid the natural consequence of that person’s original choice.

I do not see man’s emotions anywhere in this story. Where do you?

Taoism? Awesome - it was my study of the Tao that brought me back to Christianity. I still consider myself a Taoist Buddhist Christian . . . just to be specific.

I have no problem with the earth being aged at a billion years - not a problem in my undertanding of Scripture.
[/quote]

Doesn’t it strike you funny that a perfect being would need to glorify himself? Wouldn’t that be a HUGE ego? When I say “man’s emotions” I mean from the stand point of the story in the Bible. I’m trying to contrast a perfect being and what that means to what the Bible say’s God wanted. A perfect omnipotent being would have no need for anyone to worship him. Remember God always has been right? He’s perfect in every way. Why all the sudden an urge to be worshiped after untold eons of existence?

On the other hand I can certainly see man w/our huge egos thinking about God needing to be worshiped and were writing a book to explain something we can’t and we happen to think God needs to be worshiped so we put that in the story.

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Why does a painter paint? A writer write? Why does an engineer design and build? Why do we men do anything? A creator creates. No deep philosophy required.

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[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Ok, I’m interested in serious debate about anything religious. You can be religious (any religion), anti-religious, irreligious, whatever. Just be ready to back your statements or claims with real sources otherwise it’s just an argument about God vs. Science or whatever.

I am well aware that it will probably get bogged down with arguments, insults, and whatever else, but if you would like to avoid all that I am open to debate about anything. Post away.[/quote]
What do you mean by “back your statements or claims with real sources?” By sources do you mean the Bible? [/quote]

No, I mean websites that contain well cited bibliographies, books, etc. That was what I was trying to avoid was a Christian saying “the Bible says” and someone else saying “the Bible isn’t true.” Then it just becomes an argument.

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
Why does a painter paint? A writer write? Why does an engineer design and build? Why do we men do anything? A creator creates. No deep philosophy required.[/quote]

If that held true then you think we would see many more planets with life on them wouldn’t you? Did he send his son to die for all those as well?

I guess that’s how you would explain Genesis 6:1 “When the son’s of God mate w/the daughters of man”. He has more than one son so he could save more than one planet I guess.

I think if anyone were to actually read the Old Testament they would see that it’s not accurate and God told these people to do a lot of terrible things in his name. Things a perfect, loving all knowing God would not do but things man probably would do. Hence man wrote the bible and it was not inspired by anyone but man.

176

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
This could become a good thread after all . . .[/quote]

This is PWI, give it time. This thread will become an example of a cyber poo-flinging match. Totally inevitable.[/quote]

I hope we keep this pretty civilized. If people are willing to discuss, not convert, and not argue, then this will be a really good thread. Christians are going to believe what they believe, Atheists are going to believe what they believe, and all the others will believe what they believe. I personally do not want to have a who is better contest. Some call it whose dick is bigger contest.[/quote]

Yes, this was exactly my intent. I admit, I should have focused in on a more specific topic than “religion,” but I wanted a religion thread with discussions not arguments. You say there is no God, and I don’t believe you. I say there is a God, and you don’t believe me. There, we both lost. Now, if we can discuss things about our beliefs and how we came to them, then it’s a win-win situation.

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[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:

On the other hand I can certainly see man w/our huge egos thinking about God needing to be worshiped and were writing a book to explain something we can’t and we happen to think God needs to be worshiped so we put that in the story.

[/quote]

Haha one of my thoughts exactly. Religion, among many other things, has been an exercise in arrogance by man. Everybody is god’s chosen people and everybody has some supernatural being guiding them, we are all so important our creator yearns for our worship.

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[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:
Doesn’t it strike you funny that a perfect being would need to glorify himself? Wouldn’t that be a HUGE ego? When I say “man’s emotions” I mean from the stand point of the story in the Bible. I’m trying to contrast a perfect being and what that means to what the Bible say’s God wanted. A perfect omnipotent being would have no need for anyone to worship him. Remember God always has been right? He’s perfect in every way. Why all the sudden an urge to be worshiped after untold eons of existence?

On the other hand I can certainly see man w/our huge egos thinking about God needing to be worshiped and were writing a book to explain something we can’t and we happen to think God needs to be worshiped so we put that in the story.

[/quote]

No, it doesn’t strike me as funny at all. He, being perfect, chose to create to glorify himself - nothing difficult here at all. He created an incredible universe and any observer would have to stand in awe at the majesty of this amazing and mind-blowing creation - and then wonder how magnificent and awesome must the entity be which was responsible for all of this sensational creation. His ability to create a wonder as grand as the universe gives proof to his own magnificence. A great big - “I am here and this is what I can do” - statement from the most amazing being ever - Again - don’t see a human emotion here.

The worship factor should be a natural reaction of the creation towards it creator - not demanded, but warranted. again - not a human emotion - as evidence by your own choices, we reject that which is not of our choosing. We choose constantly and consistently to not worship the creator - so it really is not a “human” emotion to worship the creator - you can’t have it both ways.

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[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:
Doesn’t it strike you funny that a perfect being would need to glorify himself? Wouldn’t that be a HUGE ego? When I say “man’s emotions” I mean from the stand point of the story in the Bible. I’m trying to contrast a perfect being and what that means to what the Bible say’s God wanted. A perfect omnipotent being would have no need for anyone to worship him. Remember God always has been right? He’s perfect in every way. Why all the sudden an urge to be worshiped after untold eons of existence?

On the other hand I can certainly see man w/our huge egos thinking about God needing to be worshiped and were writing a book to explain something we can’t and we happen to think God needs to be worshiped so we put that in the story.

[/quote]

No, it doesn’t strike me as funny at all. He, being perfect, chose to create to glorify himself - nothing difficult here at all. He created an incredible universe and any observer would have to stand in awe at the majesty of this amazing and mind-blowing creation - and then wonder how magnificent and awesome must the entity be which was responsible for all of this sensational creation. His ability to create a wonder as grand as the universe gives proof to his own magnificence. A great big - “I am here and this is what I can do” - statement from the most amazing being ever - Again - don’t see a human emotion here.

The worship factor should be a natural reaction of the creation towards it creator - not demanded, but warranted. again - not a human emotion - as evidence by your own choices, we reject that which is not of our choosing. We choose constantly and consistently to not worship the creator - so it really is not a “human” emotion to worship the creator - you can’t have it both ways. [/quote]

That’s my point. You said “He, being perfect , chose to create to glorify himself” This is a trait that man would have not a prefect being. The very fact that he needed to glorify himself say’s there is something lacking w/this being. Something missing that the worship would fill. A prefect being would not have any inadequacies. He would not need worship or anything to worship him. Only something with an ego would need this. Man would yearn for this but not a perfect being.

So, maybe our definition of God is different?

180

Let me put this more plainly - he could have created anything he wanted to and it would have glorified him. The inclusion of man in his creation was his own choice and it glorifies him - and if we were inanimate objects our creation would still have glorified him.