God did not need to glorify himself - any creation he created would glorify him - the result is part of the act - he creates, he is glorified - not an egotistical matter at all. He is perfect, creates a masterpiece and the masterpieces glorifes his perfection - simpe as 1, 2, 3
[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Why does a painter paint? A writer write? Why does an engineer design and build? Why do we men do anything? A creator creates. No deep philosophy required.[/quote]
If that held true then you think we would see many more planets with life on them wouldn’t you? Did he send his son to die for all those as well?[/quote]
I don’t know. Are you holding back on technology that would allow us to gaze upon the far reaches of the universe? And in a manner that would allow us to determine if there are few, lots, or no planets with life, in the first place? Who can say? We’re not even in the position, technologically, to pose that question.
[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:
That’s my point. You said “He, being perfect , chose to create to glorify himself” This is a trait that man would have not a prefect being. [/quote]
Hold up…
Why are YOU determining what traits a perfect being must or must not have?
Where is this idea coming from that glorifying self is evil? You do it everytime you carry yourself like a gentleman. If you’re a poet, and you write poetry for the simple reason that you like to create poetry, you’re glorifying yourself.
Why is an atheist describing what the nature of a diety HAS to be/CAN’T be, in the first place? How do you even begin to formulate what something that, too you, can’t exist, must be like?
Edit: Basically, I’m mystified that you have a theology.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Why does a painter paint? A writer write? Why does an engineer design and build? Why do we men do anything? A creator creates. No deep philosophy required.[/quote]
If that held true then you think we would see many more planets with life on them wouldn’t you? Did he send his son to die for all those as well?[/quote]
I don’t know. Are you holding back on technology that would allow us to gaze upon the far reaches of the universe? And in a manner that would allow us to determine if there are few, lots, or no planets with life, in the first? Who can say? We’re not even in the position, technologically, to pose that question.
[/quote]
I would like to expound on this question. Let’s hypothetically think about it. Are these Aliens perfect or have they sinned? If they are sinners, then I would think that Jesus died for them also. If they are perfect then why would they need Jesus? If they are perfect they are already walking with God as Adam did in the Garden of Eden. You see my point.
But then again we might be the only creatures ever created that would have the knowledge to understand and think about God. Maybe there are other planets out there like ours, but we have not found one yet. There is a very slim margin of error to have a planet like ours circling around a star like ours. Is the probability there, sure, but not as high as some would like to beleive.
Some people say the universe is a big waste of space if we are the only sentient life, but I say the universe is there to show how big God is and yet he still loves us individually. Everytime we look farther into the universe it gets bigger and bigger. Go figure.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Why is an atheist describing what the nature of a diety HAS to be/CAN’T be, in the first place? How do you even begin to forumulate what something that, too you, can’t exist, must be like?
Edit: Basically, I’m mystified that you have a theology.[/quote]
LMAO - this is awesome Sloth!
You’ve pointed out the logical paradox of an atheist arguing about the existence of God - he argues against the Christian God’s existence (whose very nature he denies) by creating his own strange version of the nature of the Christian God as proof that he does not exist!
The atheist then must have as much faith as the believer - since he can never prove that the Christian God does not exist, he must simply exercise his faith in choosing to believe that the Christian God doesn’t exist.
Atheist try to hide form their faith all of the time - which is sad, really, because their faith is massive. Your belief system is not defined by what you do not believe to be true, but by what you believe to be true.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Again, I think that this God is likely much different than we think.
He may have created the universe but did not mean to create humans- they just evolved. Now that we’re here, he pays attention. He may not be omnipotent, he may not be all powerful… these are legends and myths that humans have put on him.
It may be just a spiritual force with no real embodiment, just a need to create and destroy and move.
Sometimes I think that when we’re dead, we’re going to find that things were absolutely nothing like we thought they would be. The idea that any of this is comprehensible to the human mind… that’s an arrogant thought, to me.[/quote]
I see your point and you might be right. I guess we will not know in this life, but we will know one day. What if the Christians are correct? There is evidence that Jesus lived. Josephus the first century Jewish Historian as stated as such. Some think since he was paid by the Roman Empire that is why he wrote about Jesus. The Romans hated Christians during this time frame so that is not a logical reason to deny what Josephus wrote about.
This spiritual force has been here on Earth a long time then. When is he going to move to the next planet? Seems like this spiritual force really likes us humans, or better yet actually loves us.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
And as far as aliens - there’s no way to know, but I bet they worship something, because the only guarantee in this universe is that everything ends, and so their lives will end too. If they’re cognizant of their own existence, they realize that they will die. And i doubt they want to do that either. [/quote]
What if Aliens came down to Earth, and said, “Earthlings we come to tell you about Jesus.” Would you believe then?
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
Is a supernatural and eternal spirit absolutely essential to there being an afterlife?[/quote]
ummm . . . nice dive into the deep end of an unknown pool . . . whose definition of afterlife? Hindu, Shinto, Christian - you cannot discuss a concept without context.[/quote]
This is why someone should drag nephorm’s ass in here. He would be better able to philosophize about this than most of us combined.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Why is an atheist describing what the nature of a diety HAS to be/CAN’T be, in the first place? How do you even begin to forumulate what something that, too you, can’t exist, must be like?
Edit: Basically, I’m mystified that you have a theology.[/quote]
LMAO - this is awesome Sloth!
You’ve pointed out the logical paradox of an atheist arguing about the existence of God - he argues against the Christian God’s existence (whose very nature he denies) by creating his own strange version of the nature of the Christian God as proof that he does not exist!
[/quote]
This is a big and valid problem with the Dawkins crew. It’s a strange theological strawman that he argues against, not anything that the majority of people actually believe in.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
And really, not to sound childish, but watch the show “Ghosthunters” on SciFi. Although it’s a TV show, it’s put out about as much scientific proof as one can gather on the subject of ghosts, and I think a good amount of it is real.[/quote]
Scientific proof? I don’t think a reality TV show is quite up to that standard. Of course, I may be wrong, in which case they can go and collect their $1m from the Randi foundation.[/quote]
And just to augment my point on this- there are several thousand places in this country where you can go where you will hear doors slamming on their own, you will hear footsteps, see apparitions, and hear unnatural noises that sound like voices.
There is no scientific way of explaining some of these things, and so the explanation lies in some area that we haven’t found or can’t conceive of just yet. That is the area where religion, philosophy, and science begin to intersect and nearly become inseperable.[/quote]
I think a lot of these ghost encounters shows are staged or made up, but that doesn’t mean that they all are. Even if you take my view point, that the Bible is real, it specifically mentions a witch brining the prophet Samuel back from the dead and demon possession. Ghosts are something I’ve always been interested in. Unforunately, my wife hates those shows so I don’t get to watch them as much as I used to.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
God did not need to glorify himself - any creation he created would glorify him - the result is part of the act - he creates, he is glorified - not an egotistical matter at all. He is perfect, creates a masterpiece and the masterpieces glorifes his perfection - simpe as 1, 2, 3[/quote]
But we are less than a masterpiece wouldn’t you agree? We kill, we do harm to the earth, we are selfish, egotistical and on and on. I would hardly say that man kind glorify’s God. Which brings me to another point. We do bad things which a Christian will call sin but did not God create this also from Christian perspective? I mean there was nothing and now there is everything including us and sin.
Again, my point about the Bibile and sin etc… etc… make’s no common sense.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I see your point and you might be right. I guess we will not know in this life, but we will know one day. What if the Christians are correct? There is evidence that Jesus lived. Josephus the first century Jewish Historian as stated as such. Some think since he was paid by the Roman Empire that is why he wrote about Jesus. The Romans hated Christians during this time frame so that is not a logical reason to deny what Josephus wrote about.
[/quote]
They could be, I guess. I don’t particularly think any one religion has a monopoly on what really exists. I tend not to believe in polytheistic ideas, but it could happen as easily as Christianity… but it’s hard enough for me to believe in one god, much less 20, so I kind of dismiss that idea.
I don’t doubt that Jesus lived by the way, or really any of the things about his life- it’s just I don’t know whether he was the son of god.
Fair Statements. I really have not rebutal. At least you are willing to talk to me about this.
I am open to your way of thinking and see how you come to these conclusions. I had a hard time with the Church and still do. I was unemployed and still volunteering at a church where the pastor collected 50% of the budget as his salary. He received a Christmas bonus from the church and he laughed about the amount. That was the last day I set foot in that church while he was the pastor. I have learned that looking at the Church as God is not who God really is entirely. I am a hypocrite and all of you have seen it here on T-Nation. I am not perfect, but God is not done with me yet. I heard a saying once that only about 10-20% of people who attend chruch will actually go to heaven. I think it might be close to acurate, but I am not the Judge of people. I could use this information and say god sucks, but I have seen what God can do, and his love for us.
I will say that I have been to India to help orphans. People over there are open to the Gospel because they see rich Americans caring about the people that their own government will not help. They see the mysticism, and the supernatural power, and understand it better than we do over here. The see that God loves them even though they are poorer than anything seen here in America. Poorer than the illegal aliens here in America.
Sorry for preaching.
If one can entertain the possibility of an afterlife (some here have), there are no roadblocks to believing in an uncreated Creator. You’ve already dived in the supernatural end of the pool.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I am open to your way of thinking and see how you come to these conclusions. I had a hard time with the Church and still do. I was unemployed and still volunteering at a church where the pastor collected 50% of the budget as his salary. He received a Christmas bonus from the church and he laughed about the amount. That was the last day I set foot in that church while he was the pastor. I have learned that looking at the Church as God is not who God really is entirely. I am a hypocrite and all of you have seen it here on T-Nation. I am not perfect, but God is not done with me yet. I heard a saying once that only about 10-20% of people who attend chruch will actually go to heaven. I think it might be close to acurate, but I am not the Judge of people. I could use this information and say god sucks, but I have seen what God can do, and his love for us.
[/quote]
I would be much more likely to look at it as 80 percent of your church attendees will go to heaven, but that priest will not.
As is said in the movie Blood Diamond, good moments, moments of compassion and love even in bad men can make up for a lot of bad stuff. People live the best way they know how, and that to me is enough.
I am going to use the Bible.
This is why Jesus said, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.”