I don’t won’t want to harp on this, but I believe I’ve discovered a picture of the only afterlife an atheistic upright man of reason/science can honestly contemplate. How this image was captured is beyond me. It will follow directly after this sentence, and I’ll follow it up with a few words…
There. That’s your afterlife. Well, the best illustration concievable. But really, you’d have no brain to even contemplate the nothingness of it. Good night all, pleasant dreams!
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
The thing about these religious threads are, for the most part, the only people involved are those with views so profound that they would never possibly change them. Its like arguing with a retard who’s parents told him his shit is concentrated evil. You ain’t going to change his views with reason and absolute logic vs blind faith. That said I am fucking amaaaaaaazed at how thoroughly people can be brainwashed by a religion(or government) from an early age. Far be it from me to pull the holier than though but to be an actual “Christian” or “Muslim”, ect, I see as the sign of a weak minded person. To not be able to question something that has no evidence and is so goddamn illogical is alarming. Lowest common denominator, man.
And for what its worth I am definitely not calling all strict Christians/ect unintelligent. I think some people have just invested so much into the bullshit they believe it would be a near fatal blow to their pride to reconsider. Hell if I gave 10% of my earnings to my “god” for my whole life I’d be goddamn pressed to say it was in vain - not that their are very man true Christians who give nearly that much.
Again for what its worth, I was a damn good little Christian, untill I picked up the bible and fucking actually read it. How anyone could read that book and offer praise to its god is far beyond me. I wouldn’t offer my worship to that god if he was real and the universe creator. I’d rather go to hell and kick it with Satan. I believe he’d have a nice spot for me next to him, kickin’ back sippin’ brews, chucking some fireballs at some child molesters.
Anyway, I still find myself reading these threads and listening to anyone willing to preach on religion; just looking for a scrap of something to cling to in order to find faith. I’ve looked thoroughly for something like that and I’ll tell ya, I sure as hell have not find it in the least. What I’m saying is I wish their was some God I could worship; what better purpose in life than bettering your God? I just sure have not found this God and judging from these asinine threads or listening to the illogical, often downright false preachings of these religious scholars - neither has anyone else.[/quote]
18 years old and you have everything all figured out, huh? You go git 'em, tiger.[/quote]
Is that what you got out of that? Read it again old man. I was asking anyone to tell me why I should worship their god. I am LOOKING for a goddamn excuse to do so. You think anybody likes not having faith? I’m just not a fucking mindless moron who will offer his worship to a false god. Give me a logical reason to worship a god and see if I don’t do so. In my 18 years I have yet to hear 1 goddamn person give 1 goddamn logical reason to offer worship to their god.
[/quote]
I consider myself a pantheist. My god is the universe. You should worship the universe because (a) you can’t deny its existence (since you would have to exist in order to deny it, and even if only you exist, then that’s the universe and it exists 
), and (b) it contains lots of beautiful women.
Think about it. [/quote]
So since you can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the universe it exists? Not trying to be an ass, but what if your senses were wrong?
[/quote]
Then my senses would have to exist to have the chance to be wrong, and would need a universe to exist within (or be their own universe)
[quote]
Can you see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the wind? I guess you can smell it if you are breaking wind, but I digress. We can only see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the affects of the wind. The same is true for God of the Bible.
I have never been out side the atmosphere, so how can I accept outerspace if I have not been outside the atmosphere. I have to go on faith that NASA is telling me the truth. You see where my argument is going? It takes faith in certain things for me to beleive a lot of stuff that is going on in the world. I believe the Bible because the people that wrote it had a personal expirience with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. That is the same for people that have faith that science is right. They have faith that people smarter than themselves found this proof that X hypothesis is correct.[/quote]
Again, we’re getting into faith with reason and faith against reason. You believe in outerspace because you have no logical reason not to, and believing that it exists aligns with all the available data you have. So you have faith, even though you’ve never seen it, and that faith is supported by reason.
There are many things in the bible that go against reason when you try to believe them in a literal interpretation. Deciding that you believe the bible to be totally correct, and therefore forcing yourself to believe everything in it, even when you have data that contradicts it, is faith without reason.
I have more reason to believe that France exists, even though I cant see it and have never been there, than to believe that an omnipotent deity exists because someone else a thousand years dead is said to have had a personal experience (when I’m getting the story after several hundred years of retellings and translation changes).
Question for you: Why doesn’t God just talk to you directly? Why are all the stories of God talking directly to someone or burning bushes or making other big showy displays of power always thousands of years old, and never happen these days?
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I’ve made this point several times in the past myself. To some extent, even the scientific minded still have to rely on faith. How do you know evolution is real? Have you ever examined the fossil records yourself? Do you have any knowledge on DNA structures, biology, bio-chemistry, geology, etc.? If not, then you really have to go on faith of what scientists have said. Same can be said of the universe. We know, obviously, that it exists, that the sun is the center of the solar system, that the moon revolves around Earth. How do we know other things? Scientists have told us based on their calculations, but the calculations have been wrong before. Ptolemy, who calculated the Earth to be round, thought it was also the center of the solar system. He created an entire branch of mathematics to explain the irregular revolutions of the planets around Earth. The Sumerians, who with the only the aide of simple mathematics calculated the Great Year, thought the Earth was bowl shaped. When I was a kid we were taught that Cro-magnon man evolved from Neanderthal. Now we are taught differently. So it definitely takes a little faith in what science teaches unless you have personally examined the evidence.
[/quote]
You’re actually making my argument for me.
I have no problem with faith based on the best avaliable information/hypothesis. Pick up any text book from 60 years ago and you’ll find a wealth of misinformation – thats the nature of learning and knowledge, we take our best guess, test it out, keep what works, change what doesn’t. The theory of evolution is far more sound than the theory of spontaneous generation. The theory isn’t perfect, of course. It will be challenged and changed and modified as we learn more.
The problem I have is the fact that Christians are like people with one of those textbooks screaming that it’s right and that it has to be right and everyone who doesn’t agree with it will be punished, despite the fact that all evidence we have now contradicts much of what is in it.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
And I would like to hear an atheists explanation of ghosts and supernatural things. And if you’re only answer is that “it doesn’t exist,” that would be unsatisfactory.[/quote]
Well since you seem interested in that kind of stuff, you should read about
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
…Question for you: Why doesn’t God just talk to you directly? Why are all the stories of God talking directly to someone or burning bushes or making other big showy displays of power always thousands of years old, and never happen these days?[/quote]
Good questions. Questions that even many Christians have. Do you ask them contemptuously or inquisitively?[/quote]
Curiously and skeptically.
Another question for Christians: If you consider the Bible to be divine and impeccable holy word, wouldn’t it be blasphemous to alter it? How then is it generally accepted that some sects of Christianity “use” different books in the bible and some do not?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
For me it was the fact that I don’t know what state I was in prior to gaining consciousness.
[/quote]
If you’re a man of science, you do know. A man of science knows we are biological machines. But, I’ll tell you where you were if you’ll allow me to put on the scientific-atheist hat for a second. Ok, now that it’s on, the answer is…nowhere. Oblivion. And to oblivion you will return.
This shouldn’t even be an issue for you. Not with the replies I’ve seen you make. You should be deadset on the fact that when our brain is dead, we are gone. Kaput. Unawares. Never to know, feel, contemplate, or recall, ever again. How, barring some supernatural explanation, can we know this? BECAUSE THE BRAIN IS DEAD. D-E-A-D. Dead…[/quote]
Er, no I don’t know. It’s not currently testable, ergo I admit I don’t know.
Pretty weak, Sloth.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Either/and.
Never had you pegged. Flat out didn’t know.
I have some thoughts about what Irish wrote too. But I am headed to the gym as well.[/quote]
There we go.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
These questions have been asked for hundreds and hundreds of years.
[/quote]
What does that tell you?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
And really, not to sound childish, but watch the show “Ghosthunters” on SciFi. Although it’s a TV show, it’s put out about as much scientific proof as one can gather on the subject of ghosts, and I think a good amount of it is real.[/quote]
Scientific proof? I don’t think a reality TV show is quite up to that standard. Of course, I may be wrong, in which case they can go and collect their $1m from the Randi foundation.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I’ve made this point several times in the past myself. To some extent, even the scientific minded still have to rely on faith. How do you know evolution is real? Have you ever examined the fossil records yourself? Do you have any knowledge on DNA structures, biology, bio-chemistry, geology, etc.? If not, then you really have to go on faith of what scientists have said. Same can be said of the universe. We know, obviously, that it exists, that the sun is the center of the solar system, that the moon revolves around Earth. How do we know other things? Scientists have told us based on their calculations, but the calculations have been wrong before. Ptolemy, who calculated the Earth to be round, thought it was also the center of the solar system. He created an entire branch of mathematics to explain the irregular revolutions of the planets around Earth. The Sumerians, who with the only the aide of simple mathematics calculated the Great Year, thought the Earth was bowl shaped. When I was a kid we were taught that Cro-magnon man evolved from Neanderthal. Now we are taught differently. So it definitely takes a little faith in what science teaches unless you have personally examined the evidence.
[/quote]
You’re actually making my argument for me.
I have no problem with faith based on the best avaliable information/hypothesis. Pick up any text book from 60 years ago and you’ll find a wealth of misinformation – thats the nature of learning and knowledge, we take our best guess, test it out, keep what works, change what doesn’t. The theory of evolution is far more sound than the theory of spontaneous generation. The theory isn’t perfect, of course. It will be challenged and changed and modified as we learn more.
The problem I have is the fact that Christians are like people with one of those textbooks screaming that it’s right and that it has to be right and everyone who doesn’t agree with it will be punished, despite the fact that all evidence we have now contradicts much of what is in it.[/quote]
Well, my only point was that for those who say they only believe in science, there are very few who could actually explain why they believe what is in a science book. Take a person that believes in the Red Shift. Have they worked out the mathematics to prove it? Have they ever checked scientists work to prove it? Doubtfully, yet they will say a Christian is accepting things on blind faith. Well, if that Christian is going on what somebody told them was in the Bible then, yes. However, if they actually read and studied what is in the Bible then that is different. The bottom line is whether you put your stock in pure religion or pure science there is a degree of faith in either.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
And I would like to hear an atheists explanation of ghosts and supernatural things. And if you’re only answer is that “it doesn’t exist,” that would be unsatisfactory.[/quote]
That was something I always wondered myself when I was a non believer. I guess though I was never a pure atheist. I always believed there was some sort of greater power, spirit, something.
There are a lot of supernatural things that I don’t believe people have just totally made up over the years. They may be a bit fabricated or embellished, but there had to be something that made them come up with whatever it was: magic, the afterlife, out of body experience, possession, etc.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Ok, I’m interested in serious debate about anything religious. You can be religious (any religion), anti-religious, irreligious, whatever. Just be ready to back your statements or claims with real sources otherwise it’s just an argument about God vs. Science or whatever.
I am well aware that it will probably get bogged down with arguments, insults, and whatever else, but if you would like to avoid all that I am open to debate about anything. Post away.[/quote]
What do you mean by “back your statements or claims with real sources?” By sources do you mean the Bible?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
The thing about these religious threads are, for the most part, the only people involved are those with views so profound that they would never possibly change them. Its like arguing with a retard who’s parents told him his shit is concentrated evil. You ain’t going to change his views with reason and absolute logic vs blind faith. That said I am fucking amaaaaaaazed at how thoroughly people can be brainwashed by a religion(or government) from an early age. Far be it from me to pull the holier than though but to be an actual “Christian” or “Muslim”, ect, I see as the sign of a weak minded person. To not be able to question something that has no evidence and is so goddamn illogical is alarming. Lowest common denominator, man.
And for what its worth I am definitely not calling all strict Christians/ect unintelligent. I think some people have just invested so much into the bullshit they believe it would be a near fatal blow to their pride to reconsider. Hell if I gave 10% of my earnings to my “god” for my whole life I’d be goddamn pressed to say it was in vain - not that their are very man true Christians who give nearly that much.
Again for what its worth, I was a damn good little Christian, untill I picked up the bible and fucking actually read it. How anyone could read that book and offer praise to its god is far beyond me. I wouldn’t offer my worship to that god if he was real and the universe creator. I’d rather go to hell and kick it with Satan. I believe he’d have a nice spot for me next to him, kickin’ back sippin’ brews, chucking some fireballs at some child molesters.
Anyway, I still find myself reading these threads and listening to anyone willing to preach on religion; just looking for a scrap of something to cling to in order to find faith. I’ve looked thoroughly for something like that and I’ll tell ya, I sure as hell have not find it in the least. What I’m saying is I wish their was some God I could worship; what better purpose in life than bettering your God? I just sure have not found this God and judging from these asinine threads or listening to the illogical, often downright false preachings of these religious scholars - neither has anyone else.[/quote]
18 years old and you have everything all figured out, huh? You go git 'em, tiger.[/quote]
Is that what you got out of that? Read it again old man. I was asking anyone to tell me why I should worship their god. I am LOOKING for a goddamn excuse to do so. You think anybody likes not having faith? I’m just not a fucking mindless moron who will offer his worship to a false god. Give me a logical reason to worship a god and see if I don’t do so. In my 18 years I have yet to hear 1 goddamn person give 1 goddamn logical reason to offer worship to their god.
[/quote]
I consider myself a pantheist. My god is the universe. You should worship the universe because (a) you can’t deny its existence (since you would have to exist in order to deny it, and even if only you exist, then that’s the universe and it exists ), and (b) it contains lots of beautiful women.
Think about it. [/quote]
So since you can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the universe it exists? Not trying to be an ass, but what if your senses were wrong?
[/quote]
Then my senses would have to exist to have the chance to be wrong, and would need a universe to exist within (or be their own universe)
[quote]
Can you see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the wind? I guess you can smell it if you are breaking wind, but I digress. We can only see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the affects of the wind. The same is true for God of the Bible.
I have never been out side the atmosphere, so how can I accept outerspace if I have not been outside the atmosphere. I have to go on faith that NASA is telling me the truth. You see where my argument is going? It takes faith in certain things for me to beleive a lot of stuff that is going on in the world. I believe the Bible because the people that wrote it had a personal expirience with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. That is the same for people that have faith that science is right. They have faith that people smarter than themselves found this proof that X hypothesis is correct.[/quote]
Again, we’re getting into faith with reason and faith against reason. You believe in outerspace because you have no logical reason not to, and believing that it exists aligns with all the available data you have. So you have faith, even though you’ve never seen it, and that faith is supported by reason.
There are many things in the bible that go against reason when you try to believe them in a literal interpretation. Deciding that you believe the bible to be totally correct, and therefore forcing yourself to believe everything in it, even when you have data that contradicts it, is faith without reason.
I have more reason to believe that France exists, even though I cant see it and have never been there, than to believe that an omnipotent deity exists because someone else a thousand years dead is said to have had a personal experience (when I’m getting the story after several hundred years of retellings and translation changes).
Question for you: Why doesn’t God just talk to you directly? Why are all the stories of God talking directly to someone or burning bushes or making other big showy displays of power always thousands of years old, and never happen these days?[/quote]
Good post.
I am going to use the Bible, which many on here to not beleive, but to answer your question. It is because God has sent the Holy Spirit to us. That is how he speaks to us today. Do I hear an audible voice telling me that what I beleive is right? No, but I do sence his precense when I am spending time with God. I know he is leading me.
In this day in time if you went to the Doctor and said, “Doc I was walking in the backyard when all of a sudden my bush caught on fire, but it was not consumed. Then I heard this voice saying go to Iraq and free my people.” What do you think the Doc is going to do to you? Yeah that is right put you in a mental facility. Our enlightenment has deminished the supernatural to nothingness.
I also would like to hear what an atheist has to say about ghosts. Just so you all know ghosts are Biblical. They are conjured by mediums, that are frowned upon by God, but I do believe they do exist.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Er, no I don’t know. It’s not currently testable, ergo I admit I don’t know.
Pretty weak, Sloth.[/quote]
Here. Let me help you test it. Do you remember the state you were in two years before you born? No? That’s because you weren’t in a state. You were nothing. No brain, no you. So, when you die, and your brain dies, nothingness. For a tough talking atheist you’re looking very squeemish.
Edit: Look, Mak, I don’t know where this “it isn’t testable” stuff is coming from. Science tells us our thoughts are the result of neurological/chemical activity in the brain. Unless the toe is now believed to the seat of our consciousness, or something. So anyways, when the brain dies, and those activities cease, you’re gone. Here, another test, though. When the brain dies, are those chemical/neural activities still going on? Even when rot has reduced the brain to a simple putrid slime staining the back of a bare skull? The answer is no. So, oblivion.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
On these threads I see a lot of talk about it being Christianity vs. atheist, or science, or whatever else, and I’m always surprised at the number of people who post who don’t think there’s anything afterwards.
I’m hardly a christian and I break Push’s balls a lot, but I do think there’s some sort of God and that humans most likely have souls and that there is some kind of continuation once this consciousness ends.
To me, all of the science in the world can’t explain why most species roll around on dead stuff and eat piles of shit and piss on each and why only one has created the Sistine Chapel, has a written language, created bridges and buildings and airplanes and nations, and has even traveled off the planet and sent probes into space.
I don’t believe that the Bible is literal, and I don’t particularly believe in all of the dogma they purvey. But I do believe in spirits, I do believe in good and evil, and I do believe in some kind of God. Is there no one else that isn’t quite so militant one way or the other?[/quote]
AWESOME POST! an intellectual honest statement, Irish! You, my friend, are a breath of fresh air on this thread. Thanks for the openess.
[quote]EurekaBulldogLaw wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
On these threads I see a lot of talk about it being Christianity vs. atheist, or science, or whatever else, and I’m always surprised at the number of people who post who don’t think there’s anything afterwards.
I’m hardly a christian and I break Push’s balls a lot, but I do think there’s some sort of God and that humans most likely have souls and that there is some kind of continuation once this consciousness ends.
To me, all of the science in the world can’t explain why most species roll around on dead stuff and eat piles of shit and piss on each and why only one has created the Sistine Chapel, has a written language, created bridges and buildings and airplanes and nations, and has even traveled off the planet and sent probes into space.
I don’t believe that the Bible is literal, and I don’t particularly believe in all of the dogma they purvey. But I do believe in spirits, I do believe in good and evil, and I do believe in some kind of God. Is there no one else that isn’t quite so militant one way or the other?[/quote]
Yes, but I don’t think there’s room in the debates for people like us haha. Sometimes our views are radical enough they attract the bite of both parties.
The science point you brought up is very important. Some claims in various religious texts are contradicted by science. Science is also largely demonstrable and each of us here believes in it to some degree (we’re using computers).
But in these debates, which often involve biology, why can’t the biological process be the syntax and the spiritual be the semantics? Cognitive science considers this possibility in terms of brain chemistry/conscious thought occurring simultaneously. Outside of claims made to explain the world before we had anything else, I’m not sure what remains so incompatible.
I know there are VERY dogmatic scientists on one side of the debate. Regardless of how well researched/demonstrated their science is, they still do not know better than any other living thing what happens when we die.
I dunno. Just throwing it out there.[/quote]
Two of you in the same thread - is it possible?
Most excellent - welcome to the world of the open mind! A world where faith and reason work together, a world where concepts are explored, ideas are stretched, truths are revealed and lies are destroyed. This could become a good thread after all . . .
[quote]anonym wrote:
Is a supernatural and eternal spirit absolutely essential to there being an afterlife?[/quote]
ummm . . . nice dive into the deep end of an unknown pool . . . whose definition of afterlife? Hindu, Shinto, Christian - you cannot discuss a concept without context.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
This could become a good thread after all . . .[/quote]
This is PWI, give it time. This thread will become an example of a cyber poo-flinging match. Totally inevitable.