[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I don’t believe that the Bible is literal, and I don’t particularly believe in all of the dogma they purvey. But I do believe in spirits, I do believe in good and evil, and I do believe in some kind of God. Is there no one else that isn’t quite so militant one way or the other?[/quote]
…
Burn him!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
As an atheist you’ve no need for such flowery language. The state you’re returning to would be complete and total nothingness. For an atheist this must be the only possibility. You are your body, and solely your body. Your will is the result of an organic machine at work. Therefore, when said machine breaks down, you’re gone. For someone who isn’t afraid of death, you went out of your way to leave the door open for something besides unthinking oblivion. There is no “whatever state.” In fact, it came off like you really wanted to avoid stating the only end left to the atheist.[/quote]
So not believing in the existence of God = not believing in any possible sort of afterlife?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
On these threads I see a lot of talk about it being Christianity vs. atheist, or science, or whatever else, and I’m always surprised at the number of people who post who don’t think there’s anything afterwards.
I’m hardly a christian and I break Push’s balls a lot, but I do think there’s some sort of God and that humans most likely have souls and that there is some kind of continuation once this consciousness ends.
To me, all of the science in the world can’t explain why most species roll around on dead stuff and eat piles of shit and piss on each and why only one has created the Sistine Chapel, has a written language, created bridges and buildings and airplanes and nations, and has even traveled off the planet and sent probes into space.
I don’t believe that the Bible is literal, and I don’t particularly believe in all of the dogma they purvey. But I do believe in spirits, I do believe in good and evil, and I do believe in some kind of God. Is there no one else that isn’t quite so militant one way or the other?[/quote]
Yes, but I don’t think there’s room in the debates for people like us haha. Sometimes our views are radical enough they attract the bite of both parties.
The science point you brought up is very important. Some claims in various religious texts are contradicted by science. Science is also largely demonstrable and each of us here believes in it to some degree (we’re using computers).
But in these debates, which often involve biology, why can’t the biological process be the syntax and the spiritual be the semantics? Cognitive science considers this possibility in terms of brain chemistry/conscious thought occurring simultaneously. Outside of claims made to explain the world before we had anything else, I’m not sure what remains so incompatible.
I know there are VERY dogmatic scientists on one side of the debate. Regardless of how well researched/demonstrated their science is, they still do not know better than any other living thing what happens when we die.
I dunno. Just throwing it out there.
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
As an atheist you’ve no need for such flowery language. The state you’re returning to would be complete and total nothingness. For an atheist this must be the only possibility. You are your body, and solely your body. Your will is the result of an organic machine at work. Therefore, when said machine breaks down, you’re gone. For someone who isn’t afraid of death, you went out of your way to leave the door open for something besides unthinking oblivion. There is no “whatever state.” In fact, it came off like you really wanted to avoid stating the only end left to the atheist.[/quote]
So not believing in the existence of God = not believing in any possible sort of afterlife?[/quote]
Well, if you hold out on the possibility for a supernatural and eternal spirit you kind of lose all your anti-theist ammo.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
As an atheist you’ve no need for such flowery language. The state you’re returning to would be complete and total nothingness. For an atheist this must be the only possibility. You are your body, and solely your body. Your will is the result of an organic machine at work. Therefore, when said machine breaks down, you’re gone. For someone who isn’t afraid of death, you went out of your way to leave the door open for something besides unthinking oblivion. There is no “whatever state.” In fact, it came off like you really wanted to avoid stating the only end left to the atheist.[/quote]
So not believing in the existence of God = not believing in any possible sort of afterlife?[/quote]
Well, if you hold out on the possibility for a supernatural and eternal spirit you kind of lose all your anti-theist ammo. [/quote]
Is a supernatural and eternal spirit absolutely essential to there being an afterlife?
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
As an atheist you’ve no need for such flowery language. The state you’re returning to would be complete and total nothingness. For an atheist this must be the only possibility. You are your body, and solely your body. Your will is the result of an organic machine at work. Therefore, when said machine breaks down, you’re gone. For someone who isn’t afraid of death, you went out of your way to leave the door open for something besides unthinking oblivion. There is no “whatever state.” In fact, it came off like you really wanted to avoid stating the only end left to the atheist.[/quote]
So not believing in the existence of God = not believing in any possible sort of afterlife?[/quote]
For me it was the fact that I don’t know what state I was in prior to gaining consciousness.
Sloth, your attacks are getting feeble. Your definition of Atheist is quite clearly different to mine.
This is actually veering towards one of those times I get pissed that nephorm doesn’t post anymore.
Guy even managed to make SAMA an intelligent place to visit, on occasion.
[quote]anonym wrote:
This is actually veering towards one of those times I get pissed that nephorm doesn’t post anymore.
Guy even managed to make SAMA an intelligent place to visit, on occasion.[/quote]
x2
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
On these threads I see a lot of talk about it being Christianity vs. atheist, or science, or whatever else, and I’m always surprised at the number of people who post who don’t think there’s anything afterwards.
I’m hardly a christian and I break Push’s balls a lot, but I do think there’s some sort of God and that humans most likely have souls and that there is some kind of continuation once this consciousness ends.
To me, all of the science in the world can’t explain why most species roll around on dead stuff and eat piles of shit and piss on each and why only one has created the Sistine Chapel, has a written language, created bridges and buildings and airplanes and nations, and has even traveled off the planet and sent probes into space.
I don’t believe that the Bible is literal, and I don’t particularly believe in all of the dogma they purvey. But I do believe in spirits, I do believe in good and evil, and I do believe in some kind of God. Is there no one else that isn’t quite so militant one way or the other?[/quote]
There are things that science can’t explain. I seriously don’t believe in the religion vs. science debate. Unfortunately, you have some you think you can’t have religion and rational science and vice versa. There is something to be said about the fact that pretty much every society in history has some sort of religion. Whether you want to believe in the Bible, Koran, Torah, Avesta, Vedas, or whatever.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
As an atheist you’ve no need for such flowery language. The state you’re returning to would be complete and total nothingness. For an atheist this must be the only possibility. You are your body, and solely your body. Your will is the result of an organic machine at work. Therefore, when said machine breaks down, you’re gone. For someone who isn’t afraid of death, you went out of your way to leave the door open for something besides unthinking oblivion. There is no “whatever state.” In fact, it came off like you really wanted to avoid stating the only end left to the atheist.[/quote]
So not believing in the existence of God = not believing in any possible sort of afterlife?[/quote]
Well, if you hold out on the possibility for a supernatural and eternal spirit you kind of lose all your anti-theist ammo. [/quote]
Is a supernatural and eternal spirit absolutely essential to there being an afterlife?[/quote]
What do you think and why?[/quote]
What do I think about whether or not God is essential to an afterlife, or what do I think about the possibility of an afterlife, in general?
If it matters (because I would bet you have me pegged as an atheist), my line of thought has always been similar to what Irish wrote. I’ll answer after I get back from the gym.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
There are things that science can’t explain. I seriously don’t believe in the religion vs. science debate. Unfortunately, you have some you think you can’t have religion and rational science and vice versa. There is something to be said about the fact that pretty much every society in history has some sort of religion. Whether you want to believe in the Bible, Koran, Torah, Avesta, Vedas, or whatever. [/quote]
I agree. I was once told by an old guy that when enough people think something is true, there’s probably some kernels of truth to it.
Now, it could be that we all fear dying… sure as shit I do, and I think most folks are the same way, even the atheists who seem to be ready to go.
But still, as I said before- I believe in evolution completely, but to have just one species out of the millions that have lived on this planet over the last billion years, develop intelligence, and then to have that intelligence develop into the amazing catastrophe that is humanity… I find it hard to believe that something like that happens purely by chance.
And really, not to sound childish, but watch the show “Ghosthunters” on SciFi. Although it’s a TV show, it’s put out about as much scientific proof as one can gather on the subject of ghosts, and I think a good amount of it is real.
I have always joked that while most folks are scared of ghosts, I would thoroghly love to see one just because then I could relax and stop drinking so heavily for the rest of my life because my philosophical questions have been addressed.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
There are things that science can’t explain. I seriously don’t believe in the religion vs. science debate. Unfortunately, you have some you think you can’t have religion and rational science and vice versa. There is something to be said about the fact that pretty much every society in history has some sort of religion. Whether you want to believe in the Bible, Koran, Torah, Avesta, Vedas, or whatever. [/quote]
I agree. I was once told by an old guy that when enough people think something is true, there’s probably some kernels of truth to it.
Now, it could be that we all fear dying… sure as shit I do, and I think most folks are the same way, even the atheists who seem to be ready to go.
But still, as I said before- I believe in evolution completely, but to have just one species out of the millions that have lived on this planet over the last billion years, develop intelligence, and then to have that intelligence develop into the amazing catastrophe that is humanity… I find it hard to believe that something like that happens purely by chance.
And really, not to sound childish, but watch the show “Ghosthunters” on SciFi. Although it’s a TV show, it’s put out about as much scientific proof as one can gather on the subject of ghosts, and I think a good amount of it is real.
I have always joked that while most folks are scared of ghosts, I would thoroghly love to see one just because then I could relax and stop drinking so heavily for the rest of my life because my philosophical questions have been addressed.[/quote]
Interesting way to look at things. I’m not sure how to explain ghosts myself. Some like to say that it’s only demons while others say spirits that haven’t moved on. I honestly have never met one to ask. I do believe in something though. Like you said, if so many people believe in something there has to be some truth to it.
I’m not actually afraid of death itself. I guess the dying process scares me. I would hate to die some horrific way. I’m actually terrified of flying on planes though with my sleep apnea I’ll probably just suffocate in my sleep one night. I am looking forward to what lies beyond though. The way I look at it, if I’m right with my beliefs then I have something wonderful to look forward to. If the atheists are right then I seriously didn’t waste my life by trying to live for a higher purpose.
I never like to argue with people about religion. I love discussions though. Argues are pretty much a waste of time. I was a non believer in a small town that was the headquarters for both the Church of God and the Church of God of Prophecy. Needless to say, it was a very conservative, Christian town. One of the things that used to really irritate me was people that would try to prove their point of view by quoting the Bible. I like to take a much different approach. Once someone has shown interest in the Bible then I’ll start teaching them about what it’s about. Afterall, my job is to present information not convert anyone.
I used to be a Christian. Baptist to be exact. In fact I thought I wanted to be in the ministry some how. I grew up in the church and attended regularly until I was about 36. That’s all changed in the last 3-4 years.
There are lot’s of things that have changed me. First, I still believe that we might be spirit etc… (Ghosts) but I don’t believe that Christians have the market cornered on religion nor any other religion for that matter.
For me leaving Christianity was simple after you start to think about it. I’ll tell you that very few Christians have actually read the entire Bible. If they did and started in the old testament that would probably be enough to change their viewpoint. There is raping, killing, abortion all in the name of God and for God. If you read the passages it’s very easy to see all this was written by man and not inspired by God. Noah’s arc makes no sense what so ever and the garden of eden and creation stories don’t either.
To me if you can’t believe the Bible is inspired as it’s supposed to be then the basis of faith in what it says is gone. We don’t even have the original manuscripts. There copies of copies of copies. Also there have been changes made to these copies. Remember the verse that say’s “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”? Christian scholars now totally agree this was added by a scribe and they actually know the name of the scribe.
Religion is a way to make people do thing’s they should be doing anyway which is helping your fellow human and doing what’s right. Also, all common sense goes out the door when religion is involved.
[quote]anonym wrote:
Is a supernatural and eternal spirit absolutely essential to there being an afterlife?[/quote]
Well, yeah… If one is a man of SCIENCE!, as opposed to us superstitious (though many of us also fit science into our lives) folk, he must accept that his conciousness only exists as the output of the biological machinery we call the brain. So, you die. Brain is dead. Brain even rots away. You are gone. Oblivion. That’s just Anatomy and Phys. 101. To claim any other possiblity is a claim to the supernatural. Now you fellars aren’t telling me you’re holding out a bit faith for some afterlife, now are ya? You’re men of reason! Science, by Go…er, George!
[quote]Makavali wrote:
For me it was the fact that I don’t know what state I was in prior to gaining consciousness.
[/quote]
If you’re a man of science, you do know. A man of science knows we are biological machines. But, I’ll tell you where you were if you’ll allow me to put on the scientific-atheist hat for a second. Ok, now that it’s on, the answer is…nowhere. Oblivion. And to oblivion you will return.
This shouldn’t even be an issue for you. Not with the replies I’ve seen you make. You should be deadset on the fact that when our brain is dead, we are gone. Kaput. Unawares. Never to know, feel, contemplate, or recall, ever again. How, barring some supernatural explanation, can we know this? BECAUSE THE BRAIN IS DEAD. D-E-A-D. Dead…
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I never like to argue with people about religion. I love discussions though. Argues are pretty much a waste of time. I was a non believer in a small town that was the headquarters for both the Church of God and the Church of God of Prophecy. Needless to say, it was a very conservative, Christian town. One of the things that used to really irritate me was people that would try to prove their point of view by quoting the Bible. I like to take a much different approach. Once someone has shown interest in the Bible then I’ll start teaching them about what it’s about. Afterall, my job is to present information not convert anyone.
[/quote]
I completely agree. For all Push’s faults, and there are many, he does at least try to use the idea that somehow creationism has some kind of scientific justification.
Back when Zeb used to argue this, he would just continually quote the bible, or at least refer to it’s teachings… and that, to someone who doesn’t believe in the Bible, is meaningless.
That being said, I do believe the Bible to be an interesting book and worthy of reading… just not in the context of making yourself live in the ways it says (although if you can manage to pull that out of all the contradictions you’re a better man than I).
And I would like to hear an atheists explanation of ghosts and supernatural things. And if you’re only answer is that “it doesn’t exist,” that would be unsatisfactory.