Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

No, it becomes a very useful book for how to lead a good and happy life. Its says don’t kill, dont rape, dont steal, don’t cheat, don’t be jealous, be thankful for what you have, be peaceful, etc.

The fact that all of that becomes “useless” to you if you don’t literally take it all to be exact historical fact is sad, indeed.[/quote]

I obviously disagree. If the Bible is not what it says it is, it is a fraud. The Bible’s theme is not don’t rape, steal cheat, be jealous, etc. The Bible’s theme and its sole reason for existence is redemption.

The platitudes contained therein are certainly worthy but under your purview be no more authoritative than Mein Kampf.[/quote]
Just curious…are you a born again Christian?

102

This debate or discussion, whatever title you want to put is personally a little too broad. I say break religion down a little more and discussion specifics. Although God is a fundamental aspect of religion he has his own debate. If debating religion, then focus on religion, does it still serve a purpose in society, is a worth while endeavour, are the teachings clear and retain meaning.

Talking about God is more a question of whether “it” exists. To an extent this will boil down to opinion and experience.

I would love to participate in this but its way too big to have a proper discussion on. I say the OP frames the debate a little more and maybe we can start to flush the ideas and opinions out a little better.

103

“If death preceded Man then obviously death is not a consequence of Man’s disobedience. In fact, the disobedience of man becomes a moot point - irrelevant. If Man’s obedience or lack thereof is irrelevant than not only is Man a free agent as originally intended by the Creator, he really owes no allegiance or respect to his Creator and can in all seriousness completely disregard Him and conceive his own ideas as to the purpose of Creation, that is, there is no purpose of Creation. Hence no Creator is needed and definitely not desired.”
-doesn’t that depend on religious/spiritual beliefs you have?

“A competing methodology to accommodate this scenario is born. It is stroked and finessed and fine tuned and it too demands Faith. But that’s OK; the Faith accorded to evolution does not include a prerequisite to obedience to any one other than Man.”
-it may refute much about Christian belief, but a) it is the most viable scientific theory for the scientific evidence available and b) it does not refute the central beliefs of other systems… meaning that accepting the theory of evolution as the most likely way that modern creature came into existence is not a faith unto itself.

104

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:
The thing about these religious threads are, for the most part, the only people involved are those with views so profound that they would never possibly change them. Its like arguing with a retard who’s parents told him his shit is concentrated evil. You ain’t going to change his views with reason and absolute logic vs blind faith. That said I am fucking amaaaaaaazed at how thoroughly people can be brainwashed by a religion(or government) from an early age. Far be it from me to pull the holier than though but to be an actual “Christian” or “Muslim”, ect, I see as the sign of a weak minded person. To not be able to question something that has no evidence and is so goddamn illogical is alarming. Lowest common denominator, man.

And for what its worth I am definitely not calling all strict Christians/ect unintelligent. I think some people have just invested so much into the bullshit they believe it would be a near fatal blow to their pride to reconsider. Hell if I gave 10% of my earnings to my “god” for my whole life I’d be goddamn pressed to say it was in vain - not that their are very man true Christians who give nearly that much.

Again for what its worth, I was a damn good little Christian, untill I picked up the bible and fucking actually read it. How anyone could read that book and offer praise to its god is far beyond me. I wouldn’t offer my worship to that god if he was real and the universe creator. I’d rather go to hell and kick it with Satan. I believe he’d have a nice spot for me next to him, kickin’ back sippin’ brews, chucking some fireballs at some child molesters.

Anyway, I still find myself reading these threads and listening to anyone willing to preach on religion; just looking for a scrap of something to cling to in order to find faith. I’ve looked thoroughly for something like that and I’ll tell ya, I sure as hell have not find it in the least. What I’m saying is I wish their was some God I could worship; what better purpose in life than bettering your God? I just sure have not found this God and judging from these asinine threads or listening to the illogical, often downright false preachings of these religious scholars - neither has anyone else.[/quote]

18 years old and you have everything all figured out, huh? You go git 'em, tiger.[/quote]

Ageism is fun.[/quote]

Not only that but it’s a worthwhile, appropriate, legitimate pursuit.[/quote]

Nah, its bullshit considering you wouldn’t be trying to use the age of an 18 year old born again christian as an argument against his faith.[/quote]

He hasn’t presented an argument. He’s just gone epileptic on us.[/quote]

You’re a joke. You truly are not a Christian. I asked for you to help convert me, give me some reason to accept your faith, and you denied me. Your less Christian than I. What you are is somebody who believes in hell and in this fear you do what you believe will keep you from this punishment. If there is a hell I think it will be filled with like minded people. Narcissistic, selfish, illogical people.

106

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

No, actually the main reason evolution is inconsistent with any valid interpretation of Scripture is evolution is a story of death. Lots of death. For millions of years. The Scripture from Genesis to Revelation unquestionably teaches that death is a direct result of man’s sin.

If man’s sin and its consequence of death is a myth then the story of redemption, THE theme of the Bible, is worthless. Completely worthless. And people like you are then justified in your insolent chortling.[/quote]

Does it have to be a story about death? To me it’s really a story of chance, persistence, and more importantly life. We all die in the end, but life always finds a way to keep going.

It also adds an interesting perspective to our existence. We were absolutely still created, but through changes in our environment, and over a period much longer than 6 days.

107

Regarding the death thing, you invent a sky fairy who looks after you and invent an afterlife and still pretend not to be afraid of death?

LOL

108

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Regarding the death thing, you invent a sky fairy who looks after you and invent an afterlife and still pretend not to be afraid of death?

LOL[/quote]

Err, who is saying Christians aren’t afraid of death? Of course we are. Only the insane aren’t afraid of death.

Your atheism is at a very immature level Mak. Do you belittle your parents like this? Do you call those delusional Hindus of yours, insane cowards? Do you scream at them for not being one of the brights, like yourself? Mak, you’ve become a bigger zealot than me. I feel inadequate, considering your fanaticism.

109

[quote]Daygon wrote:
This debate or discussion, whatever title you want to put is personally a little too broad. I say break religion down a little more and discussion specifics. Although God is a fundamental aspect of religion he has his own debate. If debating religion, then focus on religion, does it still serve a purpose in society, is a worth while endeavour, are the teachings clear and retain meaning.

Talking about God is more a question of whether “it” exists. To an extent this will boil down to opinion and experience.

I would love to participate in this but its way too big to have a proper discussion on. I say the OP frames the debate a little more and maybe we can start to flush the ideas and opinions out a little better.[/quote]

Yeah, it was my fault for not being a little more specific. I was just sick of trying to debate or discuss with people in another thread that just wanted to argue. I tried to cite a couple different sources and someone actually told, while trying to invalidate my claim, they weren’t my secretary and didn’t have time to look up other sources themselves. I just always think it’s funny that for the numerous sources that are out there for evolution or against the Bible nobody can cite one. I know they are there because I’ve read them.

110

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
Does it have to be a story about death? To me it’s really a story of chance, persistence, and more importantly life. We all die in the end, but life always finds a way to keep going.

It also adds an interesting perspective to our existence. We were absolutely still created, but through changes in our environment, and over a period much longer than 6 days.[/quote]

There’s a great quote from Terry Pratchett: “I’d rather be a rising ape than a fallen angel.”

111

[quote]novocaine wrote:
is there free will in heaven?

since we are given free will here on earth, and have the option of turning away from god - for which in the end we are punished - is there free will after death?[/quote]

Yes, there is free will in heaven. that wasn’t hard at all . . .

112

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
Does it have to be a story about death? To me it’s really a story of chance, persistence, and more importantly life. We all die in the end, but life always finds a way to keep going.

It also adds an interesting perspective to our existence. We were absolutely still created, but through changes in our environment, and over a period much longer than 6 days.[/quote]

There’s a great quote from Terry Pratchett: “I’d rather be a rising ape than a fallen angel.”[/quote]

and you have succeeded!! :slight_smile:

113

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:
The thing about these religious threads are, for the most part, the only people involved are those with views so profound that they would never possibly change them. Its like arguing with a retard who’s parents told him his shit is concentrated evil. You ain’t going to change his views with reason and absolute logic vs blind faith. That said I am fucking amaaaaaaazed at how thoroughly people can be brainwashed by a religion(or government) from an early age. Far be it from me to pull the holier than though but to be an actual “Christian” or “Muslim”, ect, I see as the sign of a weak minded person. To not be able to question something that has no evidence and is so goddamn illogical is alarming. Lowest common denominator, man.

And for what its worth I am definitely not calling all strict Christians/ect unintelligent. I think some people have just invested so much into the bullshit they believe it would be a near fatal blow to their pride to reconsider. Hell if I gave 10% of my earnings to my “god” for my whole life I’d be goddamn pressed to say it was in vain - not that their are very man true Christians who give nearly that much.

Again for what its worth, I was a damn good little Christian, untill I picked up the bible and fucking actually read it. How anyone could read that book and offer praise to its god is far beyond me. I wouldn’t offer my worship to that god if he was real and the universe creator. I’d rather go to hell and kick it with Satan. I believe he’d have a nice spot for me next to him, kickin’ back sippin’ brews, chucking some fireballs at some child molesters.

Anyway, I still find myself reading these threads and listening to anyone willing to preach on religion; just looking for a scrap of something to cling to in order to find faith. I’ve looked thoroughly for something like that and I’ll tell ya, I sure as hell have not find it in the least. What I’m saying is I wish their was some God I could worship; what better purpose in life than bettering your God? I just sure have not found this God and judging from these asinine threads or listening to the illogical, often downright false preachings of these religious scholars - neither has anyone else.[/quote]

18 years old and you have everything all figured out, huh? You go git 'em, tiger.[/quote]

Is that what you got out of that? Read it again old man. I was asking anyone to tell me why I should worship their god. I am LOOKING for a goddamn excuse to do so. You think anybody likes not having faith? I’m just not a fucking mindless moron who will offer his worship to a false god. Give me a logical reason to worship a god and see if I don’t do so. In my 18 years I have yet to hear 1 goddamn person give 1 goddamn logical reason to offer worship to their god.
[/quote]

I consider myself a pantheist. My god is the universe. You should worship the universe because (a) you can’t deny its existence (since you would have to exist in order to deny it, and even if only you exist, then that’s the universe and it exists :stuck_out_tongue: ), and (b) it contains lots of beautiful women.

Think about it.[/quote]

So since you can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the universe it exists? Not trying to be an ass, but what if your senses were wrong?

Can you see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the wind? I guess you can smell it if you are breaking wind, but I digress. We can only see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the affects of the wind. The same is true for God of the Bible.

I have never been out side the atmosphere, so how can I accept outerspace if I have not been outside the atmosphere. I have to go on faith that NASA is telling me the truth. You see where my argument is going? It takes faith in certain things for me to beleive a lot of stuff that is going on in the world. I believe the Bible because the people that wrote it had a personal expirience with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. That is the same for people that have faith that science is right. They have faith that people smarter than themselves found this proof that X hypothesis is correct.

114

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:
The thing about these religious threads are, for the most part, the only people involved are those with views so profound that they would never possibly change them. Its like arguing with a retard who’s parents told him his shit is concentrated evil. You ain’t going to change his views with reason and absolute logic vs blind faith. That said I am fucking amaaaaaaazed at how thoroughly people can be brainwashed by a religion(or government) from an early age. Far be it from me to pull the holier than though but to be an actual “Christian” or “Muslim”, ect, I see as the sign of a weak minded person. To not be able to question something that has no evidence and is so goddamn illogical is alarming. Lowest common denominator, man.

And for what its worth I am definitely not calling all strict Christians/ect unintelligent. I think some people have just invested so much into the bullshit they believe it would be a near fatal blow to their pride to reconsider. Hell if I gave 10% of my earnings to my “god” for my whole life I’d be goddamn pressed to say it was in vain - not that their are very man true Christians who give nearly that much.

Again for what its worth, I was a damn good little Christian, untill I picked up the bible and fucking actually read it. How anyone could read that book and offer praise to its god is far beyond me. I wouldn’t offer my worship to that god if he was real and the universe creator. I’d rather go to hell and kick it with Satan. I believe he’d have a nice spot for me next to him, kickin’ back sippin’ brews, chucking some fireballs at some child molesters.

Anyway, I still find myself reading these threads and listening to anyone willing to preach on religion; just looking for a scrap of something to cling to in order to find faith. I’ve looked thoroughly for something like that and I’ll tell ya, I sure as hell have not find it in the least. What I’m saying is I wish their was some God I could worship; what better purpose in life than bettering your God? I just sure have not found this God and judging from these asinine threads or listening to the illogical, often downright false preachings of these religious scholars - neither has anyone else.[/quote]

18 years old and you have everything all figured out, huh? You go git 'em, tiger.[/quote]

Is that what you got out of that? Read it again old man. I was asking anyone to tell me why I should worship their god. I am LOOKING for a goddamn excuse to do so. You think anybody likes not having faith? I’m just not a fucking mindless moron who will offer his worship to a false god. Give me a logical reason to worship a god and see if I don’t do so. In my 18 years I have yet to hear 1 goddamn person give 1 goddamn logical reason to offer worship to their god.
[/quote]

I consider myself a pantheist. My god is the universe. You should worship the universe because (a) you can’t deny its existence (since you would have to exist in order to deny it, and even if only you exist, then that’s the universe and it exists :stuck_out_tongue: ), and (b) it contains lots of beautiful women.

Think about it.[/quote]

So since you can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the universe it exists? Not trying to be an ass, but what if your senses were wrong?

Can you see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the wind? I guess you can smell it if you are breaking wind, but I digress. We can only see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the affects of the wind. The same is true for God of the Bible.

I have never been out side the atmosphere, so how can I accept outerspace if I have not been outside the atmosphere. I have to go on faith that NASA is telling me the truth. You see where my argument is going? It takes faith in certain things for me to beleive a lot of stuff that is going on in the world. I believe the Bible because the people that wrote it had a personal expirience with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. That is the same for people that have faith that science is right. They have faith that people smarter than themselves found this proof that X hypothesis is correct.[/quote]

I’ve made this point several times in the past myself. To some extent, even the scientific minded still have to rely on faith. How do you know evolution is real? Have you ever examined the fossil records yourself? Do you have any knowledge on DNA structures, biology, bio-chemistry, geology, etc.? If not, then you really have to go on faith of what scientists have said. Same can be said of the universe. We know, obviously, that it exists, that the sun is the center of the solar system, that the moon revolves around Earth. How do we know other things? Scientists have told us based on their calculations, but the calculations have been wrong before. Ptolemy, who calculated the Earth to be round, thought it was also the center of the solar system. He created an entire branch of mathematics to explain the irregular revolutions of the planets around Earth. The Sumerians, who with the only the aide of simple mathematics calculated the Great Year, thought the Earth was bowl shaped. When I was a kid we were taught that Cro-magnon man evolved from Neanderthal. Now we are taught differently. So it definitely takes a little faith in what science teaches unless you have personally examined the evidence.

115

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:
The thing about these religious threads are, for the most part, the only people involved are those with views so profound that they would never possibly change them. Its like arguing with a retard who’s parents told him his shit is concentrated evil. You ain’t going to change his views with reason and absolute logic vs blind faith. That said I am fucking amaaaaaaazed at how thoroughly people can be brainwashed by a religion(or government) from an early age. Far be it from me to pull the holier than though but to be an actual “Christian” or “Muslim”, ect, I see as the sign of a weak minded person. To not be able to question something that has no evidence and is so goddamn illogical is alarming. Lowest common denominator, man.

And for what its worth I am definitely not calling all strict Christians/ect unintelligent. I think some people have just invested so much into the bullshit they believe it would be a near fatal blow to their pride to reconsider. Hell if I gave 10% of my earnings to my “god” for my whole life I’d be goddamn pressed to say it was in vain - not that their are very man true Christians who give nearly that much.

Again for what its worth, I was a damn good little Christian, untill I picked up the bible and fucking actually read it. How anyone could read that book and offer praise to its god is far beyond me. I wouldn’t offer my worship to that god if he was real and the universe creator. I’d rather go to hell and kick it with Satan. I believe he’d have a nice spot for me next to him, kickin’ back sippin’ brews, chucking some fireballs at some child molesters.

Anyway, I still find myself reading these threads and listening to anyone willing to preach on religion; just looking for a scrap of something to cling to in order to find faith. I’ve looked thoroughly for something like that and I’ll tell ya, I sure as hell have not find it in the least. What I’m saying is I wish their was some God I could worship; what better purpose in life than bettering your God? I just sure have not found this God and judging from these asinine threads or listening to the illogical, often downright false preachings of these religious scholars - neither has anyone else.[/quote]

18 years old and you have everything all figured out, huh? You go git 'em, tiger.[/quote]

Is that what you got out of that? Read it again old man. I was asking anyone to tell me why I should worship their god. I am LOOKING for a goddamn excuse to do so. You think anybody likes not having faith? I’m just not a fucking mindless moron who will offer his worship to a false god. Give me a logical reason to worship a god and see if I don’t do so. In my 18 years I have yet to hear 1 goddamn person give 1 goddamn logical reason to offer worship to their god.
[/quote]

I consider myself a pantheist. My god is the universe. You should worship the universe because (a) you can’t deny its existence (since you would have to exist in order to deny it, and even if only you exist, then that’s the universe and it exists :stuck_out_tongue: ), and (b) it contains lots of beautiful women.

Think about it.[/quote]

It contains a lot of uglies too. :frowning:

116

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Err, who is saying Christians aren’t afraid of death? Of course we are. Only the insane aren’t afraid of death.

Your atheism is at a very immature level Mak. Do you belittle your parents like this? Do you call those delusional Hindus of yours, insane cowards? Do you scream at them for not being one of the brights, like yourself? Mak, you’ve become a bigger zealot than me. I feel inadequate, considering your fanaticism.[/quote]

I don’t scream at my parents, nor do I scream at you.

I’m not afraid of death, and yet I’m perfectly sane. More so than you I’d wager given your beliefs. No, I’m not afraid of death, I may not be looking forward to the actual dying part, but death to me is a return to whatever state I was in before I was born. It didn’t bother me greatly then, and I doubt it will be a huge deal when I’m gone.

Also, don’t call me a Bright. I take the Christopher Hitchens route when it comes to that awful term.

117

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I’ve made this point several times in the past myself. To some extent, even the scientific minded still have to rely on faith. How do you know evolution is real? Have you ever examined the fossil records yourself? Do you have any knowledge on DNA structures, biology, bio-chemistry, geology, etc.? If not, then you really have to go on faith of what scientists have said.[/quote]

Read a book, go to a museum. It’s not hard.

118

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I’ve made this point several times in the past myself. To some extent, even the scientific minded still have to rely on faith. How do you know evolution is real? Have you ever examined the fossil records yourself? Do you have any knowledge on DNA structures, biology, bio-chemistry, geology, etc.? If not, then you really have to go on faith of what scientists have said.[/quote]

Read a book, go to a museum. It’s not hard.[/quote]

I could take the same approach with the Bible. People have written books about it. People accept evolution, the Big Bang, whatever because they’ve read it in a book or been told. Those things can be wrong though.

119

On these threads I see a lot of talk about it being Christianity vs. atheist, or science, or whatever else, and I’m always surprised at the number of people who post who don’t think there’s anything afterwards.

I’m hardly a christian and I break Push’s balls a lot, but I do think there’s some sort of God and that humans most likely have souls and that there is some kind of continuation once this consciousness ends.

To me, all of the science in the world can’t explain why most species roll around on dead stuff and eat piles of shit and piss on each and why only one has created the Sistine Chapel, has a written language, created bridges and buildings and airplanes and nations, and has even traveled off the planet and sent probes into space.

I don’t believe that the Bible is literal, and I don’t particularly believe in all of the dogma they purvey. But I do believe in spirits, I do believe in good and evil, and I do believe in some kind of God. Is there no one else that isn’t quite so militant one way or the other?

120

[quote]Makavali wrote:
I’m not afraid of death, and yet I’m perfectly sane. [/quote]

Why do people do this? So, you’re devoid of that fight or flight response when sudden danger appears? Do you happen to be missing the physiology that actually benefits us as species? I blame this on heroic action movies, I guess. Courage, bravery, heroism is action in the face of fear. Saying you’re not afraid of death is pure silliness.

Hoho! Maybe me and your less-sane-than-you parents would get along better than you and I!

As an atheist you’ve no need for such flowery language. The state you’re returning to would be complete and total nothingness. For an atheist this must be the only possibility. You are your body, and solely your body. Your will is the result of an organic machine at work. Therefore, when said machine breaks down, you’re gone. For someone who isn’t afraid of death, you went out of your way to leave the door open for something besides unthinking oblivion. There is no “whatever state.” In fact, it came off like you really wanted to avoid stating the only end left to the atheist.