Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/john11.htm

Your greek to english is above. And if you don’t understand how my earlier reference about the corrupted texts and translations ties into the very heart of the matter you’re dense. You need not make wholesale changes.

A simple greek “a” for instance, can be the difference in doctrine. And you can’t keep referring to the already translated scriptures to have your “debate” as some of you here are want to do…because you keep arguing over corrupted material. Among you, you cannot even agree on the meaning of the scriptures you quote.

It is one thing to have “faith” in something you cannot touch, or see. It is quite another, to have faith in a number of writers, copiers, forgers, church leaders and translators. [/quote]

Amen to that but based on the amount of times that has been touched on I’m afraid objective logic is out the window at this point.

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

I don’t think you will get that argument. You see we would interpret this verse as Jesus in his Human (mediator role) so yes He would be subject to God the Father, and that when he is no longer in that mediator role he is now God all in all.

With that being said God the Son would be in subjection to God the Father. Just like a wife is subject to a Husband, but they make up one family. Week analogy, but you get the point. So you won’t get a disagreement from protestants on that. You will get it on what it actually means.

just my .02
btw I am not looking to defend that interpretation, just trying to point out why no one is really biting on it everytime you post it.

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

Philippians 2:5-11

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to deathâ??
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Would you say that these verses show that Jesus chooses to be subject to God? This is where Jesus humbles himself and becomes sin. This is the doctrine you guys refuse to beleive. Jesus is God in Human form.

He gave up his throne in heave so that he could be come sin for us on Earth. He wants us all to be with him in Heaven. I would also say that verse 9 shows that God exalted the name of Jesus to be higher than any name in heaven and on earth and under the earth. That makes the name of Jesus higher than Jehovah.

Oh that is right. The name Jesus in Hebrew comes from the same root word as Jehovah. One and the same again.

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

I don’t think you will get that argument. You see we would interpret this verse as Jesus in his Human (mediator role) so yes He would be subject to God the Father, and that when he is no longer in that mediator role he is now God all in all. With that being said God the Son would be in subjection to God the Father.

Just like a wife is subject to a Husband, but they make up one family. Week analogy, but you get the point. So you won’t get a disagreement from protestants on that. You will get it on what it actually means.

just my .02
btw I am not looking to defend that interpretation, just trying to point out why no one is really biting on it everytime you post it.[/quote]
Again, people’s beliefs blind them. I apprieciate your .02. That verse is written after Jesus has ascended to heaven and is no longer in human form. When this passage was written Jesus had been in heaven for about 22 years.

Also the passage from verse 20 is talking about a future event that had not and did not happen for centuries so this could not be talking about Jesus when he was in human form.

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

Other scriptures also make it clear that He is in Him. If you have seen Me (Jesus) you have seen the Father. How can you say show us the Father.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

Philippians 2:5-11

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to deathâ??
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Would you say that these verses show that Jesus chooses to be subject to God? This is where Jesus humbles himself and becomes sin. This is the doctrine you guys refuse to beleive. Jesus is God in Human form. He gave up his throne in heave so that he could be come sin for us on Earth. He wants us all to be with him in Heaven.

I would also say that verse 9 shows that God exalted the name of Jesus to be higher than any name in heaven and on earth and under the earth. That makes the name of Jesus higher than Jehovah. Oh that is right. The name Jesus in Hebrew comes from the same root word as Jehovah. One and the same again.[/quote]
D, again click on this link and read the footnote after verse 6 where it states “who being very nature God.” You will be taken to a footnote that states: “Or in the form of”

When you apply the footnote that the NIV give it changes the meaning of the verse. Verse six then reads: “Who, being in the form of God.” Which means that he existed in God’s form which is a spirit being. Diggity D, yes it is sad that you have to look at different Bible translations before you use a passage to prove a belief.

This is at least the second time you did this. Look at other translations on Bible.com and you will see that they say “Who, being in the form of God.”

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

I don’t think you will get that argument. You see we would interpret this verse as Jesus in his Human (mediator role) so yes He would be subject to God the Father, and that when he is no longer in that mediator role he is now God all in all. With that being said God the Son would be in subjection to God the Father.

Just like a wife is subject to a Husband, but they make up one family. Week analogy, but you get the point. So you won’t get a disagreement from protestants on that. You will get it on what it actually means.

just my .02
btw I am not looking to defend that interpretation, just trying to point out why no one is really biting on it everytime you post it.[/quote]
Again, people’s beliefs blind them. I apprieciate your .02. That verse is written after Jesus has ascended to heaven and is no longer in human form. When this passage was written Jesus had been in heaven for about 22 years.

Also the passage from verse 20 is talking about a future event that had not and did not happen for centuries so this could not be talking about Jesus when he was in human form. [/quote]

I am not blinded by this or any particular dogma. I could point to a more lengthy reasoning on why It is interpreted by Orthodoxy that way, but I am trying to not get too sucked into the discussion. So forgive me for not defending my position more. Which is always open to change when I find a more compelling argument.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have two questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs:

  1. Why don’t JWs want blood transfusions? I understand they cite scripture, but I still don’t understand why it’s such a big deal. One of my friends growing up needed a bone marrow transplant. Without it, she would have died (she had Leukima). Would you truly reject such a treatment?

  2. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

They do in fact reject certain medical procedures. I handled an insurance case with a JW as a plaintiff. They constrain physicians with their beliefs which I guess is their religious right, but they have no reservation about suing that doctor when he cannot act according to the practice of medicine.

Lady almost lost her life, because she would only accept blood products in accordance with their strict doctrine.

GET OFF MY DOOR STEP!!!
[/quote]

That would add a whole new stress for the doctor during a procedure too. If they treat them correctly, they could get sued. If they don’t treat them, they could get sued for negligence.

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

I read the link, and I understand the argument from that perspective, but I think it still leaves it open. For instance what if John did want to indicate that Jesus was God. in that verse. What wording structure would he have used? If it is the same, then are we not both conceding that it is a tit for tat argument?

[/quote]

It wouldn’t have been the same. Greek has a definite article.
John 1:1

in beginning was the word and the word was with the god
and god was the word

To mean what you are saying it would have read something like:

in beginning was the word and the word was with the god
and [i]the[/i] god was the word

Notice the insertion of the definite article after the second god? That isn’t there in the Greek. [/quote]

Interesting, I will have to look into the justification of the translators as to why edit they think it should be translated that way. After all the Bible at some point no matter how close it tries to stay to the original is still going to be translated idea for idea. So I would be curious as to see what conveys that to them.[/quote]

translated not for accuracy, but for doctrine you mean.

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have two questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs:

  1. Why don’t JWs want blood transfusions? I understand they cite scripture, but I still don’t understand why it’s such a big deal. One of my friends growing up needed a bone marrow transplant. Without it, she would have died (she had Leukima). Would you truly reject such a treatment?

  2. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

They do in fact reject certain medical procedures. I handled an insurance case with a JW as a plaintiff. They constrain physicians with their beliefs which I guess is their religious right, but they have no reservation about suing that doctor when he cannot act according to the practice of medicine.

Lady almost lost her life, because she would only accept blood products in accordance with their strict doctrine.

GET OFF MY DOOR STEP!!!
[/quote]

That would add a whole new stress for the doctor during a procedure too. If they treat them correctly, they could get sued. If they don’t treat them, they could get sued for negligence.[/quote]

I’m working on the answer to your question. I should be done shortly.

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

I don’t think you will get that argument. You see we would interpret this verse as Jesus in his Human (mediator role) so yes He would be subject to God the Father, and that when he is no longer in that mediator role he is now God all in all. With that being said God the Son would be in subjection to God the Father.

Just like a wife is subject to a Husband, but they make up one family. Week analogy, but you get the point. So you won’t get a disagreement from protestants on that. You will get it on what it actually means.

just my .02
btw I am not looking to defend that interpretation, just trying to point out why no one is really biting on it everytime you post it.[/quote]
Again, people’s beliefs blind them. I apprieciate your .02. That verse is written after Jesus has ascended to heaven and is no longer in human form. When this passage was written Jesus had been in heaven for about 22 years.

Also the passage from verse 20 is talking about a future event that had not and did not happen for centuries so this could not be talking about Jesus when he was in human form. [/quote]

So when Jesus ascended into heaven he stopped being human? Where did his skin go after the resurrection? If he was resurrected and had skin that Thomas touched and then ascended did his skin fall off on the way to heaven? I contend that Jesus still has his skin and humanity once he went back to heaven so the above interpretation is still legitimate. He still chooses to submit to the Father.

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

Philippians 2:5-11

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death�¢??
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Would you say that these verses show that Jesus chooses to be subject to God? This is where Jesus humbles himself and becomes sin. This is the doctrine you guys refuse to beleive. Jesus is God in Human form. He gave up his throne in heave so that he could be come sin for us on Earth. He wants us all to be with him in Heaven.

I would also say that verse 9 shows that God exalted the name of Jesus to be higher than any name in heaven and on earth and under the earth. That makes the name of Jesus higher than Jehovah. Oh that is right. The name Jesus in Hebrew comes from the same root word as Jehovah. One and the same again.[/quote]
D, again click on this link and read the footnote after verse 6 where it states “who being very nature God.” You will be taken to a footnote that states: “Or in the form of”

When you apply the footnote that the NIV give it changes the meaning of the verse. Verse six then reads: “Who, being in the form of God.” Which means that he existed in God’s form which is a spirit being. Diggity D, yes it is sad that you have to look at different Bible translations before you use a passage to prove a belief.

This is at least the second time you did this. Look at other translations on Bible.com and you will see that they say “Who, being in the form of God.”

And that changes the meaning how? Whether being in the form of or being in the nature God does not make a difference. They both show he is God. Angels are not in the nature or form of God, and man is not in the form or the nature of God, but made in his image. What is your point?

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have two questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs:

  1. Why don’t JWs want blood transfusions? I understand they cite scripture, but I still don’t understand why it’s such a big deal. One of my friends growing up needed a bone marrow transplant. Without it, she would have died (she had Leukima). Would you truly reject such a treatment?

  2. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Great questions! I’ll answer the first on in this post and I’m still debating whether I’ll answer the second one.

From the beginning of the Bible to the end of the Bible God’s law regarding taking in blood into the body is clear. God says do not eat it and then later on he says to abstain from blood. God constitutes how blood should be used which is for the atonement of sin and when it is used in the wrong way it devalues the redeeming qualities of blood. That’s why the blood of animals played a heavy role in the sacrificing of animals which the Israelites were required to do to have their sins forgiven. The need to sacrifice animals was done away with after Jesus’ sacrifice. His blood was greater than any animals or humans blood.

This command was given to Noah, to the Israelites under the Mosaic Law and to the Christians. I’ll just list the scripture given to the Christians: Act 15:28:
“28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”

That verse shows the seriousness of abstaining from blood because it list it with idol worship and fornication. This has been observed since the apostolic times. For example, The Ecclesiastical History, by Eusebius, V, I, 26 states: In 177 C.E., in Lyons (now in France), when religious enemies falsely accused Christians of eating children, a woman named Biblis said: “How would such men eat children, when they are not allowed to eat the blood even of irrational animals?”

Christians back then and we now understand the meaning of blood so we respect the commandment to abstain from it.

Now this is what separates us from other Christian religions.

We would rather die than break God’s commandments. There is a scripture at Revelation 2:10 that states this:
Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of YOU into prison that YOU may be fully put to the test, and that YOU may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The sentence I but in bold is the main focus so remaining faithful to God’s commandments even if it means that we lose our lives is of utmost importance to us. We are confident that God will resurrect us after armegeddon.

Also, we see examples in the Bible when servants of God chose death rather than break God’s law. The three Hebrews who were in Babylonian captivity in the book of Daniel is one such example. The king said whoever didn’t bow down to the image he made was going to be thrown into a firey furnace. When they didn’t bow down the first time he even gave them a second chance to bow down and boasted about their God not being able to save them. They then replied back to the king that if their God will rescue them then he will but if not they still weren’t going to bow down to the image. Long story short they were thrown into the furnace and God rescued them. All they had to do was bow down but they chose death instead of breaking God’s law. (Daniel 3:12-30)

Another example is Daniel himself. Again, the king of Babylon made a law that no one could pray to their God for 30 days or else be thrown into the lions pit. Daniel was used to praying in view of many people so when this law was put into affect Daniel did not pray in seclusion. He prayed in the same manner for anyone to see. He was then thrown into the lions pit(Daniel 6) So he too chose death rather than break God’s law.

In both of the above examples God protected them and they survived the punishment but we see that later during the persecution of the Christians under emporer Nero that God did not always save his servants from death when they chose to remain faithful instead of breaking his laws. Emporer Nero required his people to worship him and one of the ways to do this was by having them take incense and throw it into a fire and say “Hail Caesar.” If one didn’t do this they faced the gladiators arena which meant certain death. Faithful christians of that time chose to die rather than simply throw incense into the fire and say hail Caesar and many did die.

Because of all that I mentioned above if we are in a situation where we are injured and we need blood we as a religion are encouraged to abstain from taking blood because of the reasons I listed above. This isn’t something we blindly follow. We all clearly understand the scriptures in the Bible, why blood is important to God and we see the examples in the Bible were faithful servants chose death instead of breaking God’s commands. Now if a Jehovah’s Witness is in a situation where he or a loved one needs a blood transfusion to survive then this becomes the ultimate test of faith and often times it is not an easy decision. At that moment the issue is between them and God. I can’t say that every Jehovah’s Witness that has ever been in that situation remains faithful but the abstaining from blood is heavily stressed in our religion so that when one is faced with this ultimate test they are more likely to pass it and abstain from blood. Because if it is not made clear why we should abstain and how important it is to abstain from blood, then when a Jehovah’s Witnesses is in a situation where they are facing this ultimate test they will most likely break God’s command and have the blood transfusion to save his life. So it is made crystal clear as to why we should abstain from blood and we even carry a Durable Power of Attorney card in our wallet so that in the case we are unconscious it is clear of our stance.

Again, this is one of the things that separates us from other religions. The Bible states that God is only going to have one group of people be his chosen people. We see this with the Israelites who were the only group at that time that were acceptable to God. And we also see that when the Christian congregation was formed they became God’s people and he rejected the Israelites worship. The Bible makes clear that one belief or faith is going to be accepted by God at Ephesians 4:5,6(NIV) which states:
“There is one body and one Spiritâ??just as you were called to one hope when you were calledâ?? 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;”

BIA, all of the religions of the world with different faiths are offering their worship to God. Who’s worship do you think he will accept? The worship of those who are willing to follow all of the commands in the Bible, fully understand the commands and are willing to prove faithful even to the point of death in any situation instead of breaking Gods command? Or a group that picks and chooses what commands to follow?

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

I don’t think you will get that argument. You see we would interpret this verse as Jesus in his Human (mediator role) so yes He would be subject to God the Father, and that when he is no longer in that mediator role he is now God all in all. With that being said God the Son would be in subjection to God the Father.

Just like a wife is subject to a Husband, but they make up one family. Week analogy, but you get the point. So you won’t get a disagreement from protestants on that. You will get it on what it actually means.

just my .02
btw I am not looking to defend that interpretation, just trying to point out why no one is really biting on it everytime you post it.[/quote]
Again, people’s beliefs blind them. I apprieciate your .02. That verse is written after Jesus has ascended to heaven and is no longer in human form. When this passage was written Jesus had been in heaven for about 22 years.

Also the passage from verse 20 is talking about a future event that had not and did not happen for centuries so this could not be talking about Jesus when he was in human form. [/quote]

So when Jesus ascended into heaven he stopped being human? Where did his skin go after the resurrection? If he was resurrected and had skin that Thomas touched and then ascended did his skin fall off on the way to heaven? I contend that Jesus still has his skin and humanity once he went back to heaven so the above interpretation is still legitimate. He still chooses to submit to the Father.[/quote]
Man D. I’m sorry to say that you really need to read the Bible more. This is one of the reasons we offer free home Bible studies so that we can help people understand the Bible. How about I come by say Saturdays at 11 am:) Just kidding.

At John 3:3 Jesus says unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. Do you know what that means?

1 Corinthians 15:35-52(NIV) explains what born again means:
"But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. 42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven." 50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changedâ?? 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

D, can you for once say: “Oh, I didn’t know that, thanks for pointing that out.”

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have two questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs:

  1. Why don’t JWs want blood transfusions? I understand they cite scripture, but I still don’t understand why it’s such a big deal. One of my friends growing up needed a bone marrow transplant. Without it, she would have died (she had Leukima). Would you truly reject such a treatment?

  2. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Great questions! I’ll answer the first on in this post and I’m still debating whether I’ll answer the second one.

From the beginning of the Bible to the end of the Bible God’s law regarding taking in blood into the body is clear. God says do not eat it and then later on he says to abstain from blood. God constitutes how blood should be used which is for the atonement of sin and when it is used in the wrong way it devalues the redeeming qualities of blood. That’s why the blood of animals played a heavy role in the sacrificing of animals which the Israelites were required to do to have their sins forgiven. The need to sacrifice animals was done away with after Jesus’ sacrifice. His blood was greater than any animals or humans blood.

This command was given to Noah, to the Israelites under the Mosaic Law and to the Christians. I’ll just list the scripture given to the Christians: Act 15:28:
“28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”

That verse shows the seriousness of abstaining from blood because it list it with idol worship and fornication. This has been observed since the apostolic times. For example, The Ecclesiastical History, by Eusebius, V, I,Ã? 26 states: In 177Ã? C.E., in Lyons (now in France), when religious enemies falsely accused Christians of eating children, a woman named Biblis said: “How would such men eat children, when they are not allowed to eat the blood even of irrational animals?”

Christians back then and we now understand the meaning of blood so we respect the commandment to abstain from it.

Now this is what separates us from other Christian religions.

We would rather die than break God’s commandments. There is a scripture at Revelation 2:10 that states this:
Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of YOU into prison that YOU may be fully put to the test, and that YOU may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The sentence I but in bold is the main focus so remaining faithful to God’s commandments even if it means that we lose our lives is of utmost importance to us. We are confident that God will resurrect us after armegeddon.

Also, we see examples in the Bible when servants of God chose death rather than break God’s law. The three Hebrews who were in Babylonian captivity in the book of Daniel is one such example. The king said whoever didn’t bow down to the image he made was going to be thrown into a firey furnace. When they didn’t bow down the first time he even gave them a second chance to bow down and boasted about their God not being able to save them. They then replied back to the king that if their God will rescue them then he will but if not they still weren’t going to bow down to the image. Long story short they were thrown into the furnace and God rescued them. All they had to do was bow down but they chose death instead of breaking God’s law. (Daniel 3:12-30)

Another example is Daniel himself. Again, the king of Babylon made a law that no one could pray to their God for 30 days or else be thrown into the lions pit. Daniel was used to praying in view of many people so when this law was put into affect Daniel did not pray in seclusion. He prayed in the same manner for anyone to see. He was then thrown into the lions pit(Daniel 6) So he too chose death rather than break God’s law.

In both of the above examples God protected them and they survived the punishment but we see that later during the persecution of the Christians under emporer Nero that God did not always save his servants from death when they chose to remain faithful instead of breaking his laws. Emporer Nero required his people to worship him and one of the ways to do this was by having them take incense and throw it into a fire and say “Hail Caesar.” If one didn’t do this they faced the gladiators arena which meant certain death. Faithful christians of that time chose to die rather than simply throw incense into the fire and say hail Caesar and many did die.

Because of all that I mentioned above if we are in a situation where we are injured and we need blood we as a religion are encouraged to abstain from taking blood because of the reasons I listed above. This isn’t something we blindly follow. We all clearly understand the scriptures in the Bible, why blood is important to God and we see the examples in the Bible were faithful servants chose death instead of breaking God’s commands. Now if a Jehovah’s Witness is in a situation where he or a loved one needs a blood transfusion to survive then this becomes the ultimate test of faith and often times it is not an easy decision. At that moment the issue is between them and God. I can’t say that every Jehovah’s Witness that has ever been in that situation remains faithful but the abstaining from blood is heavily stressed in our religion so that when one is faced with this ultimate test they are more likely to pass it and abstain from blood. Because if it is not made clear why we should abstain and how important it is to abstain from blood, then when a Jehovah’s Witnesses is in a situation where they are facing this ultimate test they will most likely break God’s command and have the blood transfusion to save his life. So it is made crystal clear as to why we should abstain from blood and we even carry a Durable Power of Attorney card in our wallet so that in the case we are unconscious it is clear of our stance.

Again, this is one of the things that separates us from other religions. The Bible states that God is only going to have one group of people be his chosen people. We see this with the Israelites who were the only group at that time that were acceptable to God. And we also see that when the Christian congregation was formed they became God’s people and he rejected the Israelites worship. The Bible makes clear that one belief or faith is going to be accepted by God at Ephesians 4:5,6(NIV) which states:
“There is one body and one Spiritâ??just as you were called to one hope when you were calledâ?? 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;”

BIA, all of the religions of the world with different faiths are offering their worship to God. Who’s worship do you think he will accept? The worship of those who are willing to follow all of the commands in the Bible, fully understand the commands and are willing to prove faithful even to the point of death in any situation instead of breaking Gods command? Or a group that picks and chooses what commands to follow?

[/quote]

First off, thank you for taking the time to put this answer together. You obviously put effort into it and I want to say thank you!

In regards to the scripture you cited (in regards to the blood), do you believe they were planning this for blood transfusions or were they talking about drinking and using blood for other (non-medical) reasons? Even at the last supper, Jesus said “take this and drink it, this is my blood which I give up for you” (paraphrased). Doesn’t this suggest that since he is sacrificing himself, it would be okay for others to do the same? (such as a father donating blood to his son)?

And as to your question…

“Who’s worship do you think he will accept? The worship of those who are willing to follow all of the commands in the Bible, fully understand the commands and are willing to prove faithful even to the point of death in any situation instead of breaking Gods command? Or a group that picks and chooses what commands to follow”

I honestly do not know the answer to that. But ultimately, if God sent someone to hell for for giving a transfusion to a family member, friend, or someone else in need, I honestly don’t think I would respect or worship that God. If I didn’t give the transfusion, I would be responsible for the suffering and death of that person by not helping them. I would rather save that person and take the chance of ending up in hell, if it exists. But this is just my opinion.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

Philippians 2:5-11

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death�?�¢??
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Would you say that these verses show that Jesus chooses to be subject to God? This is where Jesus humbles himself and becomes sin. This is the doctrine you guys refuse to beleive. Jesus is God in Human form. He gave up his throne in heave so that he could be come sin for us on Earth. He wants us all to be with him in Heaven.

I would also say that verse 9 shows that God exalted the name of Jesus to be higher than any name in heaven and on earth and under the earth. That makes the name of Jesus higher than Jehovah. Oh that is right. The name Jesus in Hebrew comes from the same root word as Jehovah. One and the same again.[/quote]
D, again click on this link and read the footnote after verse 6 where it states “who being very nature God.” You will be taken to a footnote that states: “Or in the form of”

When you apply the footnote that the NIV give it changes the meaning of the verse. Verse six then reads: “Who, being in the form of God.” Which means that he existed in God’s form which is a spirit being. Diggity D, yes it is sad that you have to look at different Bible translations before you use a passage to prove a belief.

This is at least the second time you did this. Look at other translations on Bible.com and you will see that they say “Who, being in the form of God.”

And that changes the meaning how? Whether being in the form of or being in the nature God does not make a difference. They both show he is God. Angels are not in the nature or form of God, and man is not in the form or the nature of God, but made in his image. What is your point?[/quote]
D are you and I in the same form? Yes. How? Because we are both made of flesh and blood(At least I hope you’re a human on the other end). Angels along with Jesus are in the same form as God because they all live in the heavenly spirit realm. So whatever substance makes a spirit a spirit being God along with all of his heavenly sons are of the same nature or form meaning they are all spirits. Come on D. It’s not that hard to understand.

If you want scripture here ya go.
John 4:24 states:
God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.â??

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV):
“18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water.”

Can you see? Both God, Jesus and the wicked angels who were imprisoned are called spirits.

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have two questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs:

  1. Why don’t JWs want blood transfusions? I understand they cite scripture, but I still don’t understand why it’s such a big deal. One of my friends growing up needed a bone marrow transplant. Without it, she would have died (she had Leukima). Would you truly reject such a treatment?

  2. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Great questions! I’ll answer the first on in this post and I’m still debating whether I’ll answer the second one.

From the beginning of the Bible to the end of the Bible God’s law regarding taking in blood into the body is clear. God says do not eat it and then later on he says to abstain from blood. God constitutes how blood should be used which is for the atonement of sin and when it is used in the wrong way it devalues the redeeming qualities of blood. That’s why the blood of animals played a heavy role in the sacrificing of animals which the Israelites were required to do to have their sins forgiven. The need to sacrifice animals was done away with after Jesus’ sacrifice. His blood was greater than any animals or humans blood.

This command was given to Noah, to the Israelites under the Mosaic Law and to the Christians. I’ll just list the scripture given to the Christians: Act 15:28:
“28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”

That verse shows the seriousness of abstaining from blood because it list it with idol worship and fornication. This has been observed since the apostolic times. For example, The Ecclesiastical History, by Eusebius, V, I,Ã? 26 states: In 177Ã? C.E., in Lyons (now in France), when religious enemies falsely accused Christians of eating children, a woman named Biblis said: “How would such men eat children, when they are not allowed to eat the blood even of irrational animals?”

Christians back then and we now understand the meaning of blood so we respect the commandment to abstain from it.

Now this is what separates us from other Christian religions.

We would rather die than break God’s commandments. There is a scripture at Revelation 2:10 that states this:
Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of YOU into prison that YOU may be fully put to the test, and that YOU may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The sentence I but in bold is the main focus so remaining faithful to God’s commandments even if it means that we lose our lives is of utmost importance to us. We are confident that God will resurrect us after armegeddon.

Also, we see examples in the Bible when servants of God chose death rather than break God’s law. The three Hebrews who were in Babylonian captivity in the book of Daniel is one such example. The king said whoever didn’t bow down to the image he made was going to be thrown into a firey furnace. When they didn’t bow down the first time he even gave them a second chance to bow down and boasted about their God not being able to save them. They then replied back to the king that if their God will rescue them then he will but if not they still weren’t going to bow down to the image. Long story short they were thrown into the furnace and God rescued them. All they had to do was bow down but they chose death instead of breaking God’s law. (Daniel 3:12-30)

Another example is Daniel himself. Again, the king of Babylon made a law that no one could pray to their God for 30 days or else be thrown into the lions pit. Daniel was used to praying in view of many people so when this law was put into affect Daniel did not pray in seclusion. He prayed in the same manner for anyone to see. He was then thrown into the lions pit(Daniel 6) So he too chose death rather than break God’s law.

In both of the above examples God protected them and they survived the punishment but we see that later during the persecution of the Christians under emporer Nero that God did not always save his servants from death when they chose to remain faithful instead of breaking his laws. Emporer Nero required his people to worship him and one of the ways to do this was by having them take incense and throw it into a fire and say “Hail Caesar.” If one didn’t do this they faced the gladiators arena which meant certain death. Faithful christians of that time chose to die rather than simply throw incense into the fire and say hail Caesar and many did die.

Because of all that I mentioned above if we are in a situation where we are injured and we need blood we as a religion are encouraged to abstain from taking blood because of the reasons I listed above. This isn’t something we blindly follow. We all clearly understand the scriptures in the Bible, why blood is important to God and we see the examples in the Bible were faithful servants chose death instead of breaking God’s commands. Now if a Jehovah’s Witness is in a situation where he or a loved one needs a blood transfusion to survive then this becomes the ultimate test of faith and often times it is not an easy decision. At that moment the issue is between them and God. I can’t say that every Jehovah’s Witness that has ever been in that situation remains faithful but the abstaining from blood is heavily stressed in our religion so that when one is faced with this ultimate test they are more likely to pass it and abstain from blood. Because if it is not made clear why we should abstain and how important it is to abstain from blood, then when a Jehovah’s Witnesses is in a situation where they are facing this ultimate test they will most likely break God’s command and have the blood transfusion to save his life. So it is made crystal clear as to why we should abstain from blood and we even carry a Durable Power of Attorney card in our wallet so that in the case we are unconscious it is clear of our stance.

Again, this is one of the things that separates us from other religions. The Bible states that God is only going to have one group of people be his chosen people. We see this with the Israelites who were the only group at that time that were acceptable to God. And we also see that when the Christian congregation was formed they became God’s people and he rejected the Israelites worship. The Bible makes clear that one belief or faith is going to be accepted by God at Ephesians 4:5,6(NIV) which states:
“There is one body and one Spiritâ??just as you were called to one hope when you were calledâ?? 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;”

BIA, all of the religions of the world with different faiths are offering their worship to God. Who’s worship do you think he will accept? The worship of those who are willing to follow all of the commands in the Bible, fully understand the commands and are willing to prove faithful even to the point of death in any situation instead of breaking Gods command? Or a group that picks and chooses what commands to follow?

[/quote]

I am glad you answered that, and it is well put, and I can see why you believe this.

I have a question. What happens to the JW that decides to take the transfusion?

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

  1. What’s so important about October 1914? I keep seeing references to this date, but am not sure what exactly transpired on that year according to JWs beliefs.[/quote]

Apparently Satan and his angels were cast down to earth on 10/1/1914 and that when the end times began. Apparently he was otherwise occupied the previous 19 centuries.

Now being biblical literalists and all, where in the scripture is this date written as this event occurring?[/quote]
That is such a great question! I’ve been waiting for someone to ask that. But I will say that most people can’t see a clear scripture such as 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 which states: 27[i]For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all,[/i]" I know they won’t understand the Bible prophecy that points to 1914 as the start of the Last Days.

Before I explain how Bible prophecy points to 1914 as the start of the Last Day let me ask you Pat. Are you honestly saying that the above scriptures is not clear and does not shows that Jesus is subject to God?[/quote]

Philippians 2:5-11

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death�??�?�¢??
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Would you say that these verses show that Jesus chooses to be subject to God? This is where Jesus humbles himself and becomes sin. This is the doctrine you guys refuse to beleive. Jesus is God in Human form. He gave up his throne in heave so that he could be come sin for us on Earth. He wants us all to be with him in Heaven.

I would also say that verse 9 shows that God exalted the name of Jesus to be higher than any name in heaven and on earth and under the earth. That makes the name of Jesus higher than Jehovah. Oh that is right. The name Jesus in Hebrew comes from the same root word as Jehovah. One and the same again.[/quote]
D, again click on this link and read the footnote after verse 6 where it states “who being very nature God.” You will be taken to a footnote that states: “Or in the form of”

When you apply the footnote that the NIV give it changes the meaning of the verse. Verse six then reads: “Who, being in the form of God.” Which means that he existed in God’s form which is a spirit being. Diggity D, yes it is sad that you have to look at different Bible translations before you use a passage to prove a belief.

This is at least the second time you did this. Look at other translations on Bible.com and you will see that they say “Who, being in the form of God.”

And that changes the meaning how? Whether being in the form of or being in the nature God does not make a difference. They both show he is God. Angels are not in the nature or form of God, and man is not in the form or the nature of God, but made in his image. What is your point?[/quote]
D are you and I in the same form? Yes. How? Because we are both made of flesh and blood(At least I hope you’re a human on the other end). Angels along with Jesus are in the same form as God because they all live in the heavenly spirit realm. So whatever substance makes a spirit a spirit being God along with all of his heavenly sons are of the same nature or form meaning they are all spirits. Come on D. It’s not that hard to understand.

If you want scripture here ya go.
John 4:24 states:
God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.â??

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV):
“18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water.”

Can you see? Both God, Jesus and the wicked angels who were imprisoned are called spirits.[/quote]

Come on M&M. Jesus was fully human which if I take your logic means he is just like you and me, so he also can not be like God. If you do not think he was fully human then his sacrifice for us means nothing. He has to be human to be a fully acceptable sacrifice to God for humans. Now if you think he is 100% man then your idea he is a spirit being is wrong. Christians say is is 100% man and 100% God. This is able to acomplish both, and stated clearly in the Bible. John 1:1 End of story.

One thing I don’t understand about the crucification story is why didn’t anyone save Jesus? Surely, if they loved him, wouldn’t they at least make some effort to save him? If I was convinced that the son of my God was on earth with me, how could I not have tried to stop the whole crucification of him?

By not acting, are they not immoral beings for letting another suffer and die?