[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Jehovah’s Witness attacks on Jesus
* If Jesus is God, then who did He pray to?
* If Jesus is God, then why did not know the time of His return?
* If Jesus is God, why did He say the Father was greater than He?
All of the information in the links you provided about Jehovah’s Witnesses is far from the truth. Of course people are going to attack my religion because we regularly expose that most of the Christian doctrines. We’re used to the attack and we expect it and know that none of it is true.
The link that you provided before this one that supposedly answers questions like why did Jesus pray to God?, why did Jesus say the father was greater than he? and why did Jesus say only call God Good?, are all week and nothing new. People who believe in the Trinity can see that when Jesus was on earth he clearly distinguishes himself from God and states that God has greater authority so Trinitarians explain this by saying Jesus was being humble or the week reason provided in that link. Like I said in other post there are clear scriptures that distinguish between God and Jesus before Jesus came to earth and after he went to heaven that clearly show that Jesus is not God Almighty. So we don’t have use any scriptures where Jesus is on earth to show that God and Jesus are two different beings.
Daniel 7:13,14(NIV) is one such scripture.
"13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
This is a prophecy written before Jesus the “son of man” came to earth and the Ancient of Day who gives him the Kingdom is none other that God. The Son of Man cannot be God because he approaches God and God makes him king over the kingdom that Jesus told us to pray for.
So how could Jesus be called a god, a diety and divine? Again the Bible clearly states this at Isaiah 9:6 which was written before Jesus came to earth.
Isaiah 9:6,7(NIV) states:
“6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.”
Jesus is clearly called “Mighty God” but he is also called “Prince of Peace.” The title of “Prince” would never be given to God Almighty. One might ask if Jesus is given the title of Prince then why is he also called King of Kings? If you look at Daniel 7:12,13 these verses show that God gives Jesus a Kingdom that he rules over as king. Is this on God’s throne? No, because Isaiah 9:7 states that Jesus will rule on his forefather David’s throne not God’s throne. God anointed David as king ane he ruled over God’s people right here on earth. David’s dominion did not extend into the heavens. This is exactly what Jesus kingdom will do. Jesus’ kingdom will be a heavenly kingdom that will rule over God’s people on earth. So he will still be a king but he will also be subject to God as 1 Corinthians 15:28 states which would make him a prince under God.
If the above is not enough to prove that Jesus was divine in nature but still different from God then Phillipians 2:5-8(NAB, the Catholic Bible orginators of the Trinity doctrine) should.
"5 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, 6 Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. 7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance, 8 he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross."
The above verses clearly explain how Jesus could be divine, a diety and called god. They also show that before Jesus came to earth he was distinctly different from God and not equal to God.
Is it any different when Jesus goes back to heaven after he is resurrected? No. Just before Stephen is stoned he catches a glimpes of heaven. Does Stephen see Jesus sitting on God’s thrown as God Almighty himself. Absolutely not. Does Stephen see the holy spirit which is supposed to be an equal part of the Trinity in heaven? Absolutely not.
Act 7:56, 57 (NIV) states:
"54 When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
Come on now. I shouldn’t have to say anymore. All of the scriptures I used was from translations that we don’t use and none of them are from the gospels when Jesus was on earth. They clearly show that Jesus was prophecied to be called god but never is he given the title of God Almighty, it is prophesied that Jesus would be given a kingdom by God and he would rule on David’s throne; not Gods. They clearly show that before Jesus came to earth he was in God’s form as a spirit being and when he went back to heaven he was in God’s form at his right hand.
So yes Push the pre-human Jesus is mentioned all throughout the Hebrew scriptures. None of the links you provided are as clear as the scriptures I used above or the below scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:24-28(NIV):
“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”
Bury me with scriture Push, come on. Try to explain any of the scriptures above. I’m betting you’ll again run and hide on the “Serious Relgious Debate thread.”[/quote]
Now I am going to post Hebrews 1:5-14 again just to refute that Jesus is an Angel. I do this to point out that you are interpreting the Bible incorrectly so your idea of the trinity not existing is incorrect.
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father[a]”[b]? Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[c]? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[g] 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[h]? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
I love verse 8 where God says to the Son, "Your throne, Oh God, will last forever and ever. God is calling the son God. This is no longer Jesus claiming to be God, but Jehovah saying that Jesus is Jehovah. Very facinating.