[quote]mse2us wrote:
Revelation 19:13 identifies Jesus as “The Word of God.”[/quote]
Revelation says a lot of things, and like I said before, it was written by a John Doe with no relation to Jesus, and perhaps a tangential relationship to some of the Apostles’ apostles.
Just take John as a text in itself. You all are bringing too much to the table, and not taking the text at face value, and also reading from translations with hundreds of years of dogma behind them.
The text basically gives us the origin of reason (I’m not giving the entire Spartiates translation of John), but to paraphrase it says that reason/logic was made corporal (of the world of man), and encamped itself amongst us, we behold reason’s glory as the product of the father, which is full of good quality and truth (reason is good and brings truth). And this (reason) we all receive, grace for grace.
then John: 17: For the custom was given through Moses, but that which is pleasing and true (truth) through Joshua the good.
Joshua (Jesus) looks to be a teacher of divine logic/reason.
It’s a vastly different narrative than the one most Sunday Schools teach when you stop inferring the Logos refers to Joshua the good, and is instead what is itself being brought/given to the people through Joshua.
Edit: I’m not going to be hurt if you don’t like my translation, but I would suggest that you check all preconceived notions on Christianity at the door, and read John as a text unto itself and see what you get. Take it at face value.[/quote]
Revelation was written by the apostle John the writer of the gospel that bears his name and the writer of John 1, 2 and 3. The apostle John was with Jesus and has a first hand account of Jesus.[/quote]
LOL well except that John is unlike to have written the Gospel titled after him. Hmmm.
You can also think about things from the Old Testament as relative to the Jews of the time. God revealed himself to a small, fairly obscure group of people that had no political, economic, or military power in the ancient Near East. They weren’t the Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, etc. They never established a large empire to spread God’s word. So he had to ensure that it was protected for what it was. Within a few centuries of the coming of Christ, which was meant to take the place of the law, word spread rapidly to first the Roman Empire and then Europe. Mankind no longer needed those laws to keep the word uncorrupted because many more were receiving it.
[/quote]
This is my Eureka moment lol. So God, Almighty, chose that his message for all time, be shared with an obscure group of people that had no political, economic or military power. Yes, yes, yes - it all is perfectly clear now. Not.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
Revelation 19:13 identifies Jesus as “The Word of God.”[/quote]
Revelation says a lot of things, and like I said before, it was written by a John Doe with no relation to Jesus, and perhaps a tangential relationship to some of the Apostles’ apostles.
Just take John as a text in itself. You all are bringing too much to the table, and not taking the text at face value, and also reading from translations with hundreds of years of dogma behind them.
The text basically gives us the origin of reason (I’m not giving the entire Spartiates translation of John), but to paraphrase it says that reason/logic was made corporal (of the world of man), and encamped itself amongst us, we behold reason’s glory as the product of the father, which is full of good quality and truth (reason is good and brings truth). And this (reason) we all receive, grace for grace.
then John: 17: For the custom was given through Moses, but that which is pleasing and true (truth) through Joshua the good.
Joshua (Jesus) looks to be a teacher of divine logic/reason.
It’s a vastly different narrative than the one most Sunday Schools teach when you stop inferring the Logos refers to Joshua the good, and is instead what is itself being brought/given to the people through Joshua.[/quote]
Can you explain how this is “vastly” different. To me it delivers the same message as the translation in, for example, the NIV. It just isn’t in “layman’s terms”. All you have done is replaced Word with reason/logic. The message and meaning are still the same.[/quote]
No they are not. One links jesus with the father or makes a case for his divinity. The other does not. It makes him a messenger. Big difference. Or so the Jews and Muslims would argue This is why I harp all the time about authorship, translation and corruption. [/quote]
Please cite references for why we should accept Spartiates “paraphrased” translation over any other widely used translation.[/quote]
Widely used by whom!? The Church? C’mon, if you want to explore, do your homework. Or, you can just keep spouting dogma. Makes no difference to me at all.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Seriously, this isn’t complicated. It’s plainly stated.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.
The Word/the One and Only, whose Father is God, who was there from the beginning, became flesh and dwelt among them. Now what else did it say about the Word/One and only. Ah, full of grace and and truth. But wait, wait, what name is given to the flesh which is dwelling among them? The flesh through which this grace and truth comes? Jesus…
It’s so plainly stated that I can’t begin to figure out how this became a topic.[/quote]
I agree. But apparently Spartiates thinks his translation, somehow, completely changes the meaning. I’m just not seeing it.
[/quote]
I really don’t have time to write out and justify a translation at this moment… I’m supposed to be working. If this thread is not a million posts down the line, I’ll come back later.
The bottom line is that the logos: logical reason, is the subject of John here, not Jesus. The logos was there at the beginning with the divine, now the logos has been made accessible to us: made flesh, and is “camping” inside us. The old customs were given through Moses, but now through the teachings of Jesus, the logos will replace the old customs, i.e. logic and reason will replace mysticism (animal sacrifice, food rules, all that other OT stuff).
The logos is what’s divine, and was begotten by the father, not Jesus. Jesus is a teacher. Check out 1:20 is you want Jesus himself to back me up.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Do you want to discuss the Christian bible, or, will you continue to argue from some foriegn source?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning
So, the Word was there in beginning with God. Be even more importantly the Word WAS God.
What else do we know. Oh, right. The Word became flesh.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,d who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, [b]â??This was he of whom I said, â??He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me. (after all, the Word, which is God, was with God at the beginning.â??â?? From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,e,f who is at the Fatherâ??s side, has made him known.
[/quote]
Lmfao…foreign, because of course, the “Christian bible” was written in the King’s (James) English You sir, are out of your depth, and taking on water.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Seriously, this isn’t complicated. It’s stated plainly.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father�¢??s side, has made him known.
The Word/the One and Only, whose Father is God, who was there from the beginning, became flesh and dwelt among them. Now what else did it say about the Word/One and only. Ah, full of grace and and truth. But wait, wait, what name is given to the flesh which is dwelling among them? The flesh through which this grace and truth comes? Jesus…
It’s so plainly stated that I can’t begin to figure out how this became a topic.[/quote]
M&M check this out. Really good post Sloth by the way.[/quote]
D, go to the following link.
That link will take you to the NIV translation on Bible.com. The NIV is where sloth quoted verse 18 from. Look at verse 18 in the above link and you will see a footnote. Go to the bottom of the page and you will see the following:
Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son.
So the NIV translation is stating that some manuscripts read:
18 No one has ever seen God, but the only begotten son, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.
My Bible translation the New World Translation reads:
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.
This is exactly what I mean when I say some tranlations like the example I pointed out with the NIV stating in the footnote something different than what’s in the passage can change the meaning of a verse. Unfortunatley most people aren’t going to know to look to other scriptures to get a clearer understanding. To get a clearer understanding you can turn to John 17:5(NIV) which states:
“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
Or Matthew 26:64 (NIV):
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Or Hebrews 10:13(NIV):
“12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.”
When one reads those three verses they get a clearer understanding of John 1:18 and can discern that before the earth was created Jesus was at God’s side. While Jesus was on earth he said that he is going back to heaven to be at God’s side. Once Jesus went back to heaven he again was at God’s side. So John 1:18 must mean that no human has seen God and can explain him except the son because the son’s position is at God’s side.
I keep saying this D and I’m going to keep driving this point home. When God inspired John to write John 1:18 the intent was not to state who has greater authority between God and Jesus. It was to show that no human has seen God except Jesus. On the other hand verses like 1 Corinthians 11:3(NIV) was written for that exact purpose. Notice how Paul starts this verse off.
"3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."
Paul wants the Christians in the Corinth congregation to realize the order in authority between the four mentioned. God clearly inspired Paul to address who has greater authority between man and woman, man and Jesus and Jesus and God. Once the congregation read that verse they would have said “Oh ok I now know the order of authority.” No verse that you can quote, not John 1:18, John 1:1, John 10:30 or any other verse will be as clear and direct as 1 Corinthians 11:3 or 1 Corinthians 15:28 which states Jesus is going to submit to God. No scripture that you have ever quoted about God and Jesus’ relationship is going to override 1 Corinthians 11:3 or 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Do you want to discuss the Christian bible, or, will you continue to argue from some foriegn source?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning
So, the Word was there in beginning with God. Be even more importantly the Word WAS God.
What else do we know. Oh, right. The Word became flesh.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,d who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, [b]�¢??This was he of whom I said, �¢??He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me. (after all, the Word, which is God, was with God at the beginning.�¢??�¢?? From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,e,f who is at the Father�¢??s side, has made him known.
[/quote]
Lmfao…foreign, because of course, the “Christian bible” was written in the King’s (James) English You sir, are out of your depth, and taking on water.[/quote]
Please, feel free to share the deposit of revelation of your own God, since you’ve informed us that you believe in God. Oh wait, let me guess. There isn’t any. Instead, I’m guessing you just figure he’s the God of booze an porno.
I enjoy “serious” discussions about religion and I believe many of you know that when I take part in these I try my best to not be inflammatory and keep the discussion on a serious level. Having said that, I present the following story:
Suppose my wife gives me an expensive watch for my birthday. Unbeknownst to me, she stole this watch. She is later caught and sent to a prison colony. Here’s the twist - I too am sent to the prison colony. Although I did not participate in the crime, had no knowledge of it, and even offered to pay full restitution for the watch plus interest, the Law said that I too need to be punished. We are both sent to the prison colony to serve life sentences. Life on the colony is hard, much harder than our previous lives, and we are also denied many freedoms, but at least my wife and I are allowed to live together and can have children. But here’s the rub - any child born on the colony must remain on the colony - for life. Essentially, all of our descendants are sentenced to life terms on the colony because of a crime they didn’t even know about. Soon there are other couples on the colony and they too have children subject to the same rules. The colony overseer says that if we work hard and follow the rules, the Law will eventually set us free. We have never seen the Law or how it came about, but we and the generations that follow are to trust it. Generations come and go, people die on the colony, and despite following the rules no one ever seems to go free. But have faith, says the overseer, for the Law is good and this is all just temporary. The overseer even told a story of a man known only as “Jay Cee” who willingly submitted to the death penalty for a crime he did not commit because the Law said that when an innocent man is put to death than the crimes of all members of the colony will be forgiven. Rumor has it that once prison officials learned that he was innocent, they were able to revive Jay Cee and they let him leave the colony to rejoin the Outside World. The story became quite popular in the prison colony.
Is this prison colony just? Is it fair to punish subsequent generations for the crimes of their parents, and really the crime of only one parent? How is this different from the Adam and Eve story? How is Jay Cee different from the Jesus figure?
I am being serious here. How does the above story differ from what is considered to be the foundation of Christianity?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Do you want to discuss the Christian bible, or, will you continue to argue from some foriegn source?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning
So, the Word was there in beginning with God. Be even more importantly the Word WAS God.
What else do we know. Oh, right. The Word became flesh.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,d who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, [b]�?�¢??This was he of whom I said, �?�¢??He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me. (after all, the Word, which is God, was with God at the beginning.�?�¢??�?�¢?? From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,e,f who is at the Father�?�¢??s side, has made him known.
[/quote]
Lmfao…foreign, because of course, the “Christian bible” was written in the King’s (James) English You sir, are out of your depth, and taking on water.[/quote]
Please, feel free to share the deposit of revelation of your own God, since you’ve informed us that you believe in God. Oh wait, let me guess. There isn’t any. Instead, I’m guessing you just figure he’s the God of booze an porno. [/quote]
That’s the spirit. Very Christian-like. Thank you for your testimony.
Well, because the Adam and Eve story is not a literal story for starters. It’s allegory. It contains a lesson. Therein is the value. Along the way, they decided to create a religion, with dogma and doctrine, and they took liberties to along the way. The killed, plagiarized, edited, and burned books and did what was necessary to build the doctrine. This, they tell you, is the uncorrupted word of God.
With all due respect, if you think I’m going to go out and start writing a thesis, and otherwise annotate and footnote what is already a considerable body of work, you’re crazy. This is all old hat. Do you think Spart is making up his posts? That it’s his scholarship and opinion? Where do you think this all leads? To agreement? If the stuff Spartiates brings up and the things I hint at are news to you, I suggest you either continue your personal quest for truth or, you stop where you are and stop engaging in discussions where dispute is invited since it upsets you so much. Your beliefs are fine by me. They do me no harm. I wish you no harm.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Do you want to discuss the Christian bible, or, will you continue to argue from some foriegn source?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning
So, the Word was there in beginning with God. Be even more importantly the Word WAS God.
What else do we know. Oh, right. The Word became flesh.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,d who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, [b]�??�??�?�¢??This was he of whom I said, �??�??�?�¢??He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me. (after all, the Word, which is God, was with God at the beginning.�??�??�?�¢??�??�??�?�¢?? From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,e,f who is at the Father�??�??�?�¢??s side, has made him known.
[/quote]
Lmfao…foreign, because of course, the “Christian bible” was written in the King’s (James) English You sir, are out of your depth, and taking on water.[/quote]
Please, feel free to share the deposit of revelation of your own God, since you’ve informed us that you believe in God. Oh wait, let me guess. There isn’t any. Instead, I’m guessing you just figure he’s the God of booze an porno. [/quote]
That’s the spirit. Very Christian-like. Thank you for your testimony. [/quote]
I’ve turned the cheek a couple times with your snide attitude. I’ve also noticed you’re not one for responding. Not really capable of answering back to anything, apparently. Seems like you thought you were going to get to do all the talking. Well, nope. It’s time for you tell us about YOUR God.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Seriously, this isn’t complicated. It’s plainly stated.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.
The Word/the One and Only, whose Father is God, who was there from the beginning, became flesh and dwelt among them. Now what else did it say about the Word/One and only. Ah, full of grace and and truth. But wait, wait, what name is given to the flesh which is dwelling among them? The flesh through which this grace and truth comes? Jesus…
It’s so plainly stated that I can’t begin to figure out how this became a topic.[/quote]
I agree. But apparently Spartiates thinks his translation, somehow, completely changes the meaning. I’m just not seeing it.
[/quote]
The things Paul was trying to weed out from the church in Colossae is what the agnostics, gnostics, and Jehovah’s Witness are preaching in this day in time. [/quote]
Precisely.[/quote]
Precisely? Every single scripture I used in my post I wrote today about Hell and the condition of the dead are direct and clear. I didn’t quote a single scripture and break down the words and explain what they meant back in Bible times and what they now mean today. All of the scriptures I quoted were from a translation of the Bible that I don’t use and I used at least five scriptures in my post that all harmonize with each other and clearly state the penalty of sinning and the condition of the dead.
The scriptures I used in my post to show that God and Jesus aren’t the same are all direct and clear. Again, I didn’t try to explain a verse by stating that the Greek or Hebrew word means one thing so the verse means something other than what is clearly stated. You Push tried to break down a clear and direct scripture I used by trying to say that the verse means something else based on the original Greek word. Not once in any of my post did I do that with the scriptures I used to back any of the doctrines I’ve discussed.
D when you use scriptures like John 10:30 where Jesus states I and the father are one. I took you to John 17:20-24 that clearly explained what that ONE means. When you used the John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus god. I took you to Isaiah 9:6 where it’s prophesied that Jesus would be called a god and a prince but never God Almighty. All of the scriptures you use to show that Jesus is God can easily be explained using other parts of the Bible. The only time I mentioned anything about translations is when one translations words a verse differently than another and the point that I make is that one should look to other parts of the Bible to clarify what a verse means.
Push, you completely hid when I asked you about the verses I used to show that God and Jesus are not the same. And I’m still waiting for anyone to explain or try to refute the verses I used in my earlier post about Hell and the condition of the dead.
This is why I harp all the time about authorship, translation and corruption. [/quote]