Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1017

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Precisely? Every single scripture I used in my post I wrote today about Hell and the condition of the dead are direct and clear. I didn’t quote a single scripture and break down the words and explain what they meant back in Bible times and what they now mean today. All of the scriptures I quoted were from a translation of the Bible that I don’t use and I used at least five scriptures in my post that all harmonize with each other and clearly state the penalty of sinning and the condition of the dead.

The scriptures I used in my post to show that God and Jesus aren’t the same are all direct and clear. Again, I didn’t try to explain a verse by stating that the Greek or Hebrew word means one thing so the verse means something other than what is clearly stated. You Push tried to break down a clear and direct scripture I used by trying to say that the verse means something else based on the original Greek word. Not once in any of my post did I do that with the scriptures I used to back any of the doctrines I’ve discussed.

D when you use scriptures like John 10:30 where Jesus states I and the father are one. I took you to John 17:20-24 that clearly explained what that ONE means. When you used the John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus god. I took you to Isaiah 9:6 where it’s prophesied that Jesus would be called a god and a prince but never God Almighty. All of the scriptures you use to show that Jesus is God can easily be explained using other parts of the Bible. The only time I mentioned anything about translations is when one translations words a verse differently than another and the point that I make is that one should look to other parts of the Bible to clarify what a verse means.

Push, you completely hid when I asked you about the verses I used to show that God and Jesus are not the same. And I’m still waiting for anyone to explain or try to refute the verses I used in my earlier post about Hell and the condition of the dead.[/quote]

If I wanted to take the time to refute the cult of the Jehovah’s Witness I could honestly bury you in Scripture, reason and good ol’ common sense. However, for some reason I feel compelled to concentrate my energies elsewhere.

I will simply direct you to the first chapter of the gospel of John.

The theme of the entire Bible from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 22:21 is God himself, the Creator of all that is - not some created JW/Mormon fabricated being - took on the form of man in order to redeem him.[/quote]
Bury me. Come on. I double dog dare you. I guarantee you that you could not even come close. Like I said before I will take you up and down the Bible and show you any Bible doctrine using clear and direct scriptures from any translation.

The fact that you call my religion a cult shows your complete ignorance. What cult do you know is as open and willing to talk about their beliefs as we do. What cult spends over a billion hours a year talking about God’s Kingdom, inviting people to attend their services and offering free home Bible studies. None. Cults are secretive, secluded from other people and follow one man. Do a Google search on cults before you make a crazy statement like we’re a cult. You crack me up.

1018

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Precisely? Every single scripture I used in my post I wrote today about Hell and the condition of the dead are direct and clear. I didn’t quote a single scripture and break down the words and explain what they meant back in Bible times and what they now mean today. All of the scriptures I quoted were from a translation of the Bible that I don’t use and I used at least five scriptures in my post that all harmonize with each other and clearly state the penalty of sinning and the condition of the dead.

The scriptures I used in my post to show that God and Jesus aren’t the same are all direct and clear. Again, I didn’t try to explain a verse by stating that the Greek or Hebrew word means one thing so the verse means something other than what is clearly stated. You Push tried to break down a clear and direct scripture I used by trying to say that the verse means something else based on the original Greek word. Not once in any of my post did I do that with the scriptures I used to back any of the doctrines I’ve discussed.

D when you use scriptures like John 10:30 where Jesus states I and the father are one. I took you to John 17:20-24 that clearly explained what that ONE means. When you used the John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus god. I took you to Isaiah 9:6 where it’s prophesied that Jesus would be called a god and a prince but never God Almighty. All of the scriptures you use to show that Jesus is God can easily be explained using other parts of the Bible. The only time I mentioned anything about translations is when one translations words a verse differently than another and the point that I make is that one should look to other parts of the Bible to clarify what a verse means.

Push, you completely hid when I asked you about the verses I used to show that God and Jesus are not the same. And I’m still waiting for anyone to explain or try to refute the verses I used in my earlier post about Hell and the condition of the dead.[/quote]

If I wanted to take the time to refute the cult of the Jehovah’s Witness I could honestly bury you in Scripture, reason and good ol’ common sense. However, for some reason I feel compelled to concentrate my energies elsewhere.

I will simply direct you to the first chapter of the gospel of John.

The theme of the entire Bible from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 22:21 is God himself, the Creator of all that is - not some created JW/Mormon fabricated being - took on the form of man in order to redeem him.[/quote]

bury you in scripture ? common sense?? how is it common sense to have 3 people in one, and one be superior to the other.

you haven’t used anything outside of ambiguous scripture to refute what mse2us has brought up. whereas, when he brings up clear, concise scripture, you say he is creating a fabricated being. That is just ironic.

On top of that all you told Pat that HE needs to stop having such a closed mind!

1021

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Exactly.

Or you could have just put the playboy in your room and locked the door. Or not shown it to him at all. Or any of a number of things which would have saved your son from punishment.

Fact is, what it really boils down to, is that the god of the Christian bible is evil. He wants to send people to hell.

He creates a forbidden tree to “test” his new creations (because its not enough to give them free will, now you have to play games with it), and sends his “enemy” to tempt them (of course, knowing exactly what was going to happen) to eat it. And when they do, he punishes not only them but the rest of humanity forever.

Evil.

He creates the world in a way that is totally impossble according to the way the world works now. He creates plants first, then then sun, then makes plants dependant on the sun for survival – leading any rational, thinking person to believe that the sun had to come first.

He “pre-dates” the earth, so that things on it will show themselves to be much older than his holy book says they are. This totally unnecessarily causes the observable data about the world around us to conflict with the Bible (why couldn’t god just make things that are 6000 years old LOOK like they’re 6000 years old? why the games?). This causes humans to choose between an ancient book and the reliable data in front of them - and if they choose the data (which God has chosen to make confusing)? They go to hell.

The christian god is apparently full of setting his “most loved” creations up for excuses to send them to eternal pain and torment. [/quote]

Do you have children? I am going to assume no. Watch a child when you tell them do not touch that it is hot. If you do not grab them they will look at you and at the same time reach their hand closer to the fire until it burns them. I told him not to touch the flame, but he did it anyway. He disobeyed me on purpose. Was this my fault or was it his? I would say this is the same thing that God did with Adam and Eve.[/quote]

Did you unnecessarily start a fire JUST SO you could “test” him?
Did you have someone else talk him into touching the fire?
Did you know exactly what would happen and set up the conditions to which you could punish him anyway?

If I had a child, I would never do that.

1022

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Do you think Spart is making up his posts? [/quote]

Yes. That’s what’s so funny about your “Yeah, Christians, in your damn faces, attitude.”

It was easily demonstrated that “The Word” was Jesus. But to top it off, the cherry on top, was Jesus’ supposed denial that he was the Christ. The verse he gave was John the Baptist’s words. John the Baptist denying that he himself was the Christ. And you were cheering this on! Neither one of you has any credibility now. To have gotten that wrong, of all things, is too revealing. You’re copying from some guy’s video or book, who didn’t believe his marks would be smart enough to actually look up the passages for themselves. He was right.

1023

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Exactly.

Or you could have just put the playboy in your room and locked the door. Or not shown it to him at all. Or any of a number of things which would have saved your son from punishment.

Fact is, what it really boils down to, is that the god of the Christian bible is evil. He wants to send people to hell.

He creates a forbidden tree to “test” his new creations (because its not enough to give them free will, now you have to play games with it), and sends his “enemy” to tempt them (of course, knowing exactly what was going to happen) to eat it. And when they do, he punishes not only them but the rest of humanity forever.

Evil.

He creates the world in a way that is totally impossble according to the way the world works now. He creates plants first, then then sun, then makes plants dependant on the sun for survival – leading any rational, thinking person to believe that the sun had to come first.

He “pre-dates” the earth, so that things on it will show themselves to be much older than his holy book says they are. This totally unnecessarily causes the observable data about the world around us to conflict with the Bible (why couldn’t god just make things that are 6000 years old LOOK like they’re 6000 years old? why the games?). This causes humans to choose between an ancient book and the reliable data in front of them - and if they choose the data (which God has chosen to make confusing)? They go to hell.

The christian god is apparently full of setting his “most loved” creations up for excuses to send them to eternal pain and torment. [/quote]
God is evil? Not even close. Notice what God inspired Peter to write at 2 Peter 3:5-8:
"5 For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.
8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

God does not desire any to be destroyed but desires people to repent and live.

I thought I explained it pretty well in one of my post that that test was not unfair, tempting or burdensome. The test did not become a temptation until Satan tempted Eve. The Playboy analogy was not even close to the test God set up in the garden.

Yes the penalty of death given to Adam did pass to all of his descendants but God has provided a way to undo the effects of sin and death by given his only begotten son. Exercising faith in Jesus and following whats outlined in the Bible allows our sins to be continually forgiven.
Act 3:19 states:
“19 Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out.”

Ezekiel 33:16 states:
“16 None of his sins with which he has sinned will be remembered against him. Justice and righteousness are what he has carried on. He will positively keep living.”

1 John 1:7 states:
“However, if we are walking in the light as he himself is in the light, we do have a sharing with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.”

Those are just a few scriptures that shows that once God forgives us of a sin they are blotted out just like you would use Wite-Out to remove text on a piece of paper. They are wiped away and not called to God’s mind. And if you’re walking in the light meaning if you’re in an approved state by God, Jesus’ sacrifice continually cleanses us of sin. Now that is a loving God.

God would never burn and torment even the worst sinner forever in a place called Hell. Capped, there is no place called Hell mentioned anywhere in the Bible. When one dies and pays the penalty that they inherited from Adam they are given a clean slate. There sins are blotted out, wiped away. Acts 24:15 states “that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” So people who were bad before they died are going to get a second chance. How can that be? Roman 6:23 states that the “wages sin pays is death” so once one has died they have payed the price for sinning by dying. That’s why Romans 6:7(NIV) states “anyone who has died has been freed from sin.”
Capped, can you see how loving that is? The penalty that was given to Adam was dying and returning to dust not burning forever in a place of torment. Romans 5:12 states that through one man sin entered into the world and death(returning back to dust)through sin, thus death spread to all men. This death that spread to all Adam’s descendant passed to us due to no fault of our own. So that is why when one dies God is going to give that person a second chance and if one is in an approved state with God, when he removes the wicked that are still alive(ones who have not paid the Adamic penalty) at armegeddon those in an approved state will survive. That is love.

I can understand you thinking a God that would burn sinners forever in Hell is evil. But this is not what the Bible teaches. That teaching slanders and maligns God because it is false. The teaching that God takes a mother or father from a child to be with him in heaven is another teaching that slanders and maligns God because it is not what the Bible teaches and it is false.

The God I’ve come to know and love from what’s in the Bible is a loving God that is patient and quick to forgive. He would never burn someone for all eternity for being bad 30 or 40 years and he would never cause the death of someone to be with him in heaven.

Capped, God created the universe along with the sun and earth before he created anything on earth. So yes the sun was necessary for plants to grow. And just because we don’t understand something doesn’t mean that it’s not true. Scientist do not understand the whole birth process. They don’t understand what makes sperm travel to the egg and what causes the egg to divide and start to form a fetus. They can observe the process but they don’t understand and can’t explain exactly what starts it and why. You still believe that humans are born everyday don’t you? So just because we can’t fully explain or understand something does not mean that it is not true.[/quote]

Good post. But this part still gets me:

I thought I explained it pretty well in one of my post that that test was not unfair, tempting or burdensome. The test did not become a temptation until Satan tempted Eve. The Playboy analogy was not even close to the test God set up in the garden.

Why would a God that knows all (all past all future all possible futures, etc) need to “test” Adam and Eve?

Is it even a “test” if God knew what would happen?
Was there some chance Adam and Eve would “surprise” God?

1024

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Precisely? Every single scripture I used in my post I wrote today about Hell and the condition of the dead are direct and clear. I didn’t quote a single scripture and break down the words and explain what they meant back in Bible times and what they now mean today. All of the scriptures I quoted were from a translation of the Bible that I don’t use and I used at least five scriptures in my post that all harmonize with each other and clearly state the penalty of sinning and the condition of the dead.

The scriptures I used in my post to show that God and Jesus aren’t the same are all direct and clear. Again, I didn’t try to explain a verse by stating that the Greek or Hebrew word means one thing so the verse means something other than what is clearly stated. You Push tried to break down a clear and direct scripture I used by trying to say that the verse means something else based on the original Greek word. Not once in any of my post did I do that with the scriptures I used to back any of the doctrines I’ve discussed.

D when you use scriptures like John 10:30 where Jesus states I and the father are one. I took you to John 17:20-24 that clearly explained what that ONE means. When you used the John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus god. I took you to Isaiah 9:6 where it’s prophesied that Jesus would be called a god and a prince but never God Almighty. All of the scriptures you use to show that Jesus is God can easily be explained using other parts of the Bible. The only time I mentioned anything about translations is when one translations words a verse differently than another and the point that I make is that one should look to other parts of the Bible to clarify what a verse means.

Push, you completely hid when I asked you about the verses I used to show that God and Jesus are not the same. And I’m still waiting for anyone to explain or try to refute the verses I used in my earlier post about Hell and the condition of the dead.[/quote]

If I wanted to take the time to refute the cult of the Jehovah’s Witness I could honestly bury you in Scripture, reason and good ol’ common sense. However, for some reason I feel compelled to concentrate my energies elsewhere.

I will simply direct you to the first chapter of the gospel of John.

The theme of the entire Bible from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 22:21 is God himself, the Creator of all that is - not some created JW/Mormon fabricated being - took on the form of man in order to redeem him.[/quote]

bury you in scripture ? common sense?? how is it common sense to have 3 people in one, and one be superior to the other.

you haven’t used anything outside of ambiguous scripture to refute what mse2us has brought up. whereas, when he brings up clear, concise scripture, you say he is creating a fabricated being. That is just ironic.

On top of that all you told Pat that HE needs to stop having such a closed mind![/quote]
Exactly, Push you even admitted that you don’t understand the Trinity. Like I’ve said before why believe something that is supposedly beyond humans to understand or mysterious and admittedly does not make sense when you can simply look at the numerous scriptures that are clear and direct that show God is not Jesus.

It’s a historical fact that pre-christian nations such as Egypt and Babylon worshiped tri-gods and this false teaching made it’s way into the Christian congregation. Push you need to not only open your mind but take that veil from over your eyes because it makes it hard to see.

1025

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Why would a God that knows all (all past all future all possible futures, etc) need to “test” Adam and Eve?

[/quote]

Maybe the ‘test’ wasn’t for his sake.

1026

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Since we are taking this back to the Greek as a defense, we must look at how Greek is assembled.

Here is a link:

http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/john11.htm

Just to whet your appetite; the link you posted is correct, in Greek there is no indefinite article; only a definite one.

That being said, look at the following scriptures: (this is used in the article)

John 1:1 NIV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

…and the Word was God. <— No use of an indefinite article.

Acts 28:6 NIV (referring to Paul being bit by a snake on Malta)

The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.

…and said he was a god. <— Use of an indefinite article.

The author knew the rule, but chose to ignore it…

Please read the link, I read yours.

1027

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Why would a God that knows all (all past all future all possible futures, etc) need to “test” Adam and Eve?

[/quote]

Maybe the ‘test’ wasn’t for his sake. [/quote]

With every question, believers get further from logic and reason.

Now you’re suggesting that God did all this shit for mans sake?

Kicked out of paradise, cursed to die, each of us living our whole lives trying to redeem ourselves for a crime we had no part of… and this is for “our sake”?

Is this what you’re trying to tell me?

1029

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Why would a God that knows all (all past all future all possible futures, etc) need to “test” Adam and Eve?

[/quote]

Maybe the ‘test’ wasn’t for his sake. [/quote]

With every question, believers get further from logic and reason.

Now you’re suggesting that God did all this shit for mans sake?

Kicked out of paradise, cursed to die, each of us living our whole lives trying to redeem ourselves for a crime we had no part of… and this is for “our sake”?

Is this what you’re trying to tell me?[/quote]

It pretty much is.

1030

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Exactly.

Or you could have just put the playboy in your room and locked the door. Or not shown it to him at all. Or any of a number of things which would have saved your son from punishment.

Fact is, what it really boils down to, is that the god of the Christian bible is evil. He wants to send people to hell.

He creates a forbidden tree to “test” his new creations (because its not enough to give them free will, now you have to play games with it), and sends his “enemy” to tempt them (of course, knowing exactly what was going to happen) to eat it. And when they do, he punishes not only them but the rest of humanity forever.

Evil.

He creates the world in a way that is totally impossble according to the way the world works now. He creates plants first, then then sun, then makes plants dependant on the sun for survival – leading any rational, thinking person to believe that the sun had to come first.

He “pre-dates” the earth, so that things on it will show themselves to be much older than his holy book says they are. This totally unnecessarily causes the observable data about the world around us to conflict with the Bible (why couldn’t god just make things that are 6000 years old LOOK like they’re 6000 years old? why the games?). This causes humans to choose between an ancient book and the reliable data in front of them - and if they choose the data (which God has chosen to make confusing)? They go to hell.

The christian god is apparently full of setting his “most loved” creations up for excuses to send them to eternal pain and torment. [/quote]

Do you have children? I am going to assume no. Watch a child when you tell them do not touch that it is hot. If you do not grab them they will look at you and at the same time reach their hand closer to the fire until it burns them. I told him not to touch the flame, but he did it anyway. He disobeyed me on purpose. Was this my fault or was it his? I would say this is the same thing that God did with Adam and Eve.[/quote]

Did you unnecessarily start a fire JUST SO you could “test” him?
Did you have someone else talk him into touching the fire?
Did you know exactly what would happen and set up the conditions to which you could punish him anyway?

If I had a child, I would never do that. [/quote]

My point is that children will go against your will and they can not even talk. I have 3 children and when I tell them no that will hurt you they will look me in the eye and try to do what will hurt them. I of course take them away from the pain before they hurt themselves but they will do it again and again until they learn that it hurts. This is before they can walk, talk, and comprehend what I am saying. Even children very small sin without me telling them what sin is. Remember what I say when you have children.

1032

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Precisely? Every single scripture I used in my post I wrote today about Hell and the condition of the dead are direct and clear. I didn’t quote a single scripture and break down the words and explain what they meant back in Bible times and what they now mean today. All of the scriptures I quoted were from a translation of the Bible that I don’t use and I used at least five scriptures in my post that all harmonize with each other and clearly state the penalty of sinning and the condition of the dead.

The scriptures I used in my post to show that God and Jesus aren’t the same are all direct and clear. Again, I didn’t try to explain a verse by stating that the Greek or Hebrew word means one thing so the verse means something other than what is clearly stated. You Push tried to break down a clear and direct scripture I used by trying to say that the verse means something else based on the original Greek word. Not once in any of my post did I do that with the scriptures I used to back any of the doctrines I’ve discussed.

D when you use scriptures like John 10:30 where Jesus states I and the father are one. I took you to John 17:20-24 that clearly explained what that ONE means. When you used the John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus god. I took you to Isaiah 9:6 where it’s prophesied that Jesus would be called a god and a prince but never God Almighty. All of the scriptures you use to show that Jesus is God can easily be explained using other parts of the Bible. The only time I mentioned anything about translations is when one translations words a verse differently than another and the point that I make is that one should look to other parts of the Bible to clarify what a verse means.

Push, you completely hid when I asked you about the verses I used to show that God and Jesus are not the same. And I’m still waiting for anyone to explain or try to refute the verses I used in my earlier post about Hell and the condition of the dead.[/quote]

If I wanted to take the time to refute the cult of the Jehovah’s Witness I could honestly bury you in Scripture, reason and good ol’ common sense. However, for some reason I feel compelled to concentrate my energies elsewhere.

I will simply direct you to the first chapter of the gospel of John.

The theme of the entire Bible from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 22:21 is God himself, the Creator of all that is - not some created JW/Mormon fabricated being - took on the form of man in order to redeem him.[/quote]

bury you in scripture ? common sense?? how is it common sense to have 3 people in one, and one be superior to the other.

you haven’t used anything outside of ambiguous scripture to refute what mse2us has brought up. whereas, when he brings up clear, concise scripture, you say he is creating a fabricated being. That is just ironic.

On top of that all you told Pat that HE needs to stop having such a closed mind![/quote]
Exactly, Push you even admitted that you don’t understand the Trinity. Like I’ve said before why believe something that is supposedly beyond humans to understand or mysterious and admittedly does not make sense when you can simply look at the numerous scriptures that are clear and direct that show God is not Jesus.

It’s a historical fact that pre-christian nations such as Egypt and Babylon worshiped tri-gods and this false teaching made it’s way into the Christian congregation. Push you need to not only open your mind but take that veil from over your eyes because it makes it hard to see.[/quote]

You’re dead wrong. I have no problem understanding the Trinity at this point in my life. It makes perfect sense to me. I DO understand how others especially those first taking a hard look at it would struggle. JWs jump on this confusion like hyenas with their grossly heretical dethroning of Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Exactly. Jesus said many times that he was God, but again their perfect translation of the Greek always say that Jesus was a god and not the God.

I find it funny how they always talk about the name Jehovah. I want to explore this. In their translation, New World Translation, there is the story of Sodom and Gamorrah Genesis chapters 18 and 19. Three men came to Abraham and Abraham called all of them Jehovah. Two of the men run to Sodom and go stay with Lot. Lot refers to the two men as Jehovah. I am wondering who is Jehovah? Is it the one who stays with Abraham or the two that go stay with Lot, or are all three of them Jehovah. How can all three of them be Jehovah. Maybe this is their translation showing the trinity and they can not even see that. I thought that was a little interesting.

1033

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
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Exactly.

Or you could have just put the playboy in your room and locked the door. Or not shown it to him at all. Or any of a number of things which would have saved your son from punishment.

Fact is, what it really boils down to, is that the god of the Christian bible is evil. He wants to send people to hell.

He creates a forbidden tree to “test” his new creations (because its not enough to give them free will, now you have to play games with it), and sends his “enemy” to tempt them (of course, knowing exactly what was going to happen) to eat it. And when they do, he punishes not only them but the rest of humanity forever.

Evil.

He creates the world in a way that is totally impossble according to the way the world works now. He creates plants first, then then sun, then makes plants dependant on the sun for survival – leading any rational, thinking person to believe that the sun had to come first.

He “pre-dates” the earth, so that things on it will show themselves to be much older than his holy book says they are. This totally unnecessarily causes the observable data about the world around us to conflict with the Bible (why couldn’t god just make things that are 6000 years old LOOK like they’re 6000 years old? why the games?). This causes humans to choose between an ancient book and the reliable data in front of them - and if they choose the data (which God has chosen to make confusing)? They go to hell.

The christian god is apparently full of setting his “most loved” creations up for excuses to send them to eternal pain and torment. [/quote]
God is evil? Not even close. Notice what God inspired Peter to write at 2 Peter 3:5-8:
"5 For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.
8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

God does not desire any to be destroyed but desires people to repent and live.

I thought I explained it pretty well in one of my post that that test was not unfair, tempting or burdensome. The test did not become a temptation until Satan tempted Eve. The Playboy analogy was not even close to the test God set up in the garden.

Yes the penalty of death given to Adam did pass to all of his descendants but God has provided a way to undo the effects of sin and death by given his only begotten son. Exercising faith in Jesus and following whats outlined in the Bible allows our sins to be continually forgiven.
Act 3:19 states:
“19 Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out.”

Ezekiel 33:16 states:
“16 None of his sins with which he has sinned will be remembered against him. Justice and righteousness are what he has carried on. He will positively keep living.”

1 John 1:7 states:
“However, if we are walking in the light as he himself is in the light, we do have a sharing with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.”

Those are just a few scriptures that shows that once God forgives us of a sin they are blotted out just like you would use Wite-Out to remove text on a piece of paper. They are wiped away and not called to God’s mind. And if you’re walking in the light meaning if you’re in an approved state by God, Jesus’ sacrifice continually cleanses us of sin. Now that is a loving God.

God would never burn and torment even the worst sinner forever in a place called Hell. Capped, there is no place called Hell mentioned anywhere in the Bible. When one dies and pays the penalty that they inherited from Adam they are given a clean slate. There sins are blotted out, wiped away. Acts 24:15 states “that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” So people who were bad before they died are going to get a second chance. How can that be? Roman 6:23 states that the “wages sin pays is death” so once one has died they have payed the price for sinning by dying. That’s why Romans 6:7(NIV) states “anyone who has died has been freed from sin.”
Capped, can you see how loving that is? The penalty that was given to Adam was dying and returning to dust not burning forever in a place of torment. Romans 5:12 states that through one man sin entered into the world and death(returning back to dust)through sin, thus death spread to all men. This death that spread to all Adam’s descendant passed to us due to no fault of our own. So that is why when one dies God is going to give that person a second chance and if one is in an approved state with God, when he removes the wicked that are still alive(ones who have not paid the Adamic penalty) at armegeddon those in an approved state will survive. That is love.

I can understand you thinking a God that would burn sinners forever in Hell is evil. But this is not what the Bible teaches. That teaching slanders and maligns God because it is false. The teaching that God takes a mother or father from a child to be with him in heaven is another teaching that slanders and maligns God because it is not what the Bible teaches and it is false.

The God I’ve come to know and love from what’s in the Bible is a loving God that is patient and quick to forgive. He would never burn someone for all eternity for being bad 30 or 40 years and he would never cause the death of someone to be with him in heaven.

Capped, God created the universe along with the sun and earth before he created anything on earth. So yes the sun was necessary for plants to grow. And just because we don’t understand something doesn’t mean that it’s not true. Scientist do not understand the whole birth process. They don’t understand what makes sperm travel to the egg and what causes the egg to divide and start to form a fetus. They can observe the process but they don’t understand and can’t explain exactly what starts it and why. You still believe that humans are born everyday don’t you? So just because we can’t fully explain or understand something does not mean that it is not true.[/quote]

Good post. But this part still gets me:

I thought I explained it pretty well in one of my post that that test was not unfair, tempting or burdensome. The test did not become a temptation until Satan tempted Eve. The Playboy analogy was not even close to the test God set up in the garden.

Why would a God that knows all (all past all future all possible futures, etc) need to “test” Adam and Eve?

Is it even a “test” if God knew what would happen?
Was there some chance Adam and Eve would “surprise” God?[/quote]
Good question. We assume that since God is all powerful and all knowing that he knows the minutes details of all future event of his creation. But according to the Bible this is not always the case. God has the power to look into the future and see things before it happens but Biblical examples show that he does not always do that. he does so when he chooses to. Just because he has the power does not mean he uses it all the time. For example, you might have the power to lift 500 pounds over your head. Just because you can do it does that mean you will always walk around with 500 pounds over your head? When the situation arose that required you to lift 500 pounds over your head then you would do it. You would choose to use your power when you wanted to.

The first example is right in the garden of Eden. Genesis 3:8-13 states:
8 Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife went into hiding from the face of Jehovah God in between the trees of the garden. 9 And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: "Where are you? 10 Finally he said: “Your voice I heard in the garden, but I was afraid because I was naked and so I hid myself.” 11 At that he said: “Who told you that you were naked? From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?” 12 And the man went on to say: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and so I ate.” 13 With that Jehovah God said to the woman: “What is this you have done?” To this the woman replied: “The serpentâ??it deceived me and so I ate.”

It is possible that God already knew what happened but no where in the Bible does it state he already knew what happened before he asked. So yes God does sound surprised. But again since God is all-powerful we assume that he already knew. One thing to think about is that after God created man he said “it was good” and he rested. So after saying it was good he had no reason to look into the future and see if his creation was going to fail the test.

Another example is at Genesis 6:5,6:
“5 Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6 And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.”

Those are pretty powerful verses because they show that God did not originally plan for the badness of man to happen or choose to foresee if it was going to happen. It also shows that he did not look into the future when he created man because if he knew what was going to happen he would not have had regrets and felt hurt at his heart. For example, I know that people like Pushharder and Dmaddox won’t change their mind when confronted with clear scripture on an internet forum. I expect that so I don’t get upset when they deny clear scripture to hold onto a false belief. So if God knew and expected Adam and Eve along with Satan to sin and knew that eventually every inclination of man’s heart was going to be bad all the time then God would not have had regrets and felt hurt at his heart for making man.

Genesis 18:20-22 is another example.
20 Consequently Jehovah said: “The cry of complaint about Sodom and Gomorrah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. 21 I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.”

These verses show that God did not notice the sins of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and once he noticed he investigated the city by sending two angels down to the city to get a better understanding of what was going on.

So God is all knowing but he uses this power at his discretion and when he sees fit.