Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]
That analogy does not fit with what happened in the Garden of Eden.

First of all a Playboy magazine to a 13 year old kid going through puberty is and enticement because it is restricting a natural desire to be attracted to pretty women. That would be unfair. God did not prohibit them from performing any natural desires or functions. Again, when they got hungry all they had to do was eat from any other tree until they were satisfied. The forbidden tree was not the only tree available to eat from so the restriction was not the only source of food like the one Playboy being the only source to satisfy a 13 year old’s desire.

Two, as you stated in your analogy you know that the 13 year old is dying to see the playboy. In other words he already knows about Playboys and already has a desire to look at them. Adam and Eve did not know anything about the tree. God did not explain the tree’s significance. The tree had food on it and they could have gotten that food from any other tree. That’s why that was such a fair test because it was not overly restrictive in any way. Adam and Eve weren’t dying to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree like the kid in your analogy is dying to see the Playboy.

Third, the Bible doesn’t state that God told them the restriction and then sent Satan in the garden to intentionally test them. No, Satan did this completely on his own. God may have known that Satan was going to do that and if he did he wisely let the situation play out so that the issues about God’s sovereignty and whether humans can rule themselves could be raised and then God could completely and throughly address them.

Forth, the snake was just a mouth piece or puppet Satan used to tempt Eve. The spirit being that became Satan the Devil who was created long before Adam and Eve is the one to blame.

This is a more fitting analogy (not a perfect analogy).

Say if one owned a winery and had many acres of land to run his winery business. An in-law is going through hard times so the owner invites him to live on his land and work for him. The owner gives him his own living quarters and supports him financially with anything he needs. Since this is the owners business and his property he naturally want the in-law to obey and listen to what he has to say but the owner is not 100 percent certain he will. To see if he will listen to the owner decides to test his loyalty right away. The owner have a magic bottle of wine that will enable the person who drinks it the ability to start and run a successful wine business. So the owner takes his in-law down into the wine cellar where there are thousands of bottles of wine. The owners magic bottle is sitting on the table. The owner doesn’t tell him the significance of the bottle so that when he looks at it looks just like the other thousands of bottles on the shelves. The owner then tells him that when he gets thirsty he can take any bottle of wine he wants except the bottle on the table. He also tells the in-law the penalty for drinking wine from the bottle on the table is being kicked out. At this point this is a very fair test because the owner is not being overly restrictive because there are thousands of other bottles he can drink from when he gets thirsty, he doesn’t know the significance of wine and not drinking wine from the bottle on the table is the only restriction.

Later, one of your sons comes in and says to the in-law. “Is it really so that you can’t drink any wine at all?” The in-law then says “no I can drink from any bottle except for the bottle on the table because if I do I will get kicked out.” The son then says “that’s a lie he will not kick you out. The owner knows that if you drink from that bottle you will have the ability to run the business better than he can.” At that moment the in-law then begins to desire that wine so that he can take over the business and run it better than the owner. He desires that wine because he can’t get the same affect from any other wine except for the wine on the table. The in-law then gives into temptation and drinks the wine. When the owner approaches him and ask him why he drank the wine, instead of saying sorry and asking for forgiveness he say “Your son who you introduced me to said I should drink the wine so I drank it.” At that moment you would call your guards in and kick both the in-law and the son off your property.

This is similiar to what happened in the Garden of Eden.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Any discussion about an aspect of our faith with you (as has been demonstrated time and again in these threads) simply becomes one of our stating what we believe and you stating that it is not true. [/quote]

I’m not saying it’s not true, I’m saying it’s unproven and ask questions about the stories.

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.[/quote]

Not sure he was really talking about you in particular. And how have you refuted? Do you have hard evidence that this did not happen? You have stated your opinion, which is perfectly fine, and provided hat you BELIEVE to be evidence to the contrary BASED on your opinion.

You really haven’t refuted unless you can say you know, 100%, it didn’t happen AND you have the hard evidence to back it up. You’ve only disagreed based on what you feel, or think, is true.

[/quote]

You are correct that I have no evidence, but you are incorrect in your assertion that I haven’t been able to refute the story of Adam and Eve. The only way to refute ideas is through argument. This is what I’ve been doing.[/quote]

Refute: To PROVE to be false or erroneous, overthrow by argument or proof.

You have PROVED nothing. You have only stated that what you think is different. Nothing has been overthrown (except in your own mind) and no PROOF has been presented that can overthrow any believer’s position in this thread.

[/quote]

To truly prove something that has a physical existence, you need direct evidence. To prove an idea is untrue, you can make logical arguments.

[/quote]

Then please first prove that this is ONLY an idea. Then you can disprove the idea.

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Any discussion about an aspect of our faith with you (as has been demonstrated time and again in these threads) simply becomes one of our stating what we believe and you stating that it is not true. [/quote]

I’m not saying it’s not true, I’m saying it’s unproven and ask questions about the stories.[/quote]

only a digital recording of the event would suffice you, so what else would you like to talk about?

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.[/quote]

Not sure he was really talking about you in particular. And how have you refuted? Do you have hard evidence that this did not happen? You have stated your opinion, which is perfectly fine, and provided hat you BELIEVE to be evidence to the contrary BASED on your opinion.

You really haven’t refuted unless you can say you know, 100%, it didn’t happen AND you have the hard evidence to back it up. You’ve only disagreed based on what you feel, or think, is true.

[/quote]

You are correct that I have no evidence, but you are incorrect in your assertion that I haven’t been able to refute the story of Adam and Eve. The only way to refute ideas is through argument. This is what I’ve been doing.[/quote]

Refute: To PROVE to be false or erroneous, overthrow by argument or proof.

You have PROVED nothing. You have only stated that what you think is different. Nothing has been overthrown (except in your own mind) and no PROOF has been presented that can overthrow any believer’s position in this thread.

[/quote]

To truly prove something that has a physical existence, you need direct evidence. To prove an idea is untrue, you can make logical arguments.

[/quote]

Then please first prove that this is ONLY an idea. Then you can disprove the idea.[/quote]

That’s not the default position. The default position is that it’s false. The burden of proof is on the one that makes the claim (creationist who say Adam and Eve physically existed). I only state that the story of Adam and Eve lacks sufficient evidence to be credible (as I discussed in this thread).

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Any discussion about an aspect of our faith with you (as has been demonstrated time and again in these threads) simply becomes one of our stating what we believe and you stating that it is not true. [/quote]

I’m not saying it’s not true, I’m saying it’s unproven and ask questions about the stories.[/quote]

only a digital recording of the event would suffice you, so what else would you like to talk about?[/quote]

That’s not true though. If it logically made sense (and could be proven through such means), I could accept it.

Irish, sorry, i’m allowing this thread to become a your right, I’m wrong thread. I’ll stop.

But I will throw this topic in for discussion. Genesis 3 does not explicitly state that Lucifer was the serpent or that he spoke through the serpent. Where then does the widely held assumption come from that it was? Is there scripture elsewhere that explains this?

Is it because of Revelation 12:9 that this view is held?

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Because you’re obviously talking to some people that believe literally, instead of the allegorical, which is crystal clear to me. You have people that have taken an allegorical story and are now wondering about the relative physical positions of “Adam” and “Eve” and defending talking serpents. It is alarming. And that’s why it doesn’t pass the logic test - it’s not a literal story.
[/quote]

Wow - so the sum total of all of your comments is: Some of us are literal and some allegorical in our interpretation and you don’t believe it at all.

OK - thanks, you can go back to whatever else you were doing because we already knew that.[/quote]

You’re losing steam. Are you serious? Is there an intelligent retort or point there? I never denied the allegorical lessons and messages of the bible. I differ on theological issues.

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
The text simply says that the serpent spoke to Eve - thus by default negating the immediate presence of Adam (within earshot). She takes and eats the fruit and then gives some to Adam - now, he may have been nearby, he mave have been out riding a buffalo - but he was not the one tempted by the serpent - that much is clear to me.[/quote]

For clarification, do you literally believe a serpent spoke to “Eve”?[/quote]

Do you enjoy intentionally playing dumb? Just curious cause you try and write “smart”, and then you type things like this. You KNOW there is more to the story than just a “talking snake”.[/quote]

I asked a few here if they believe it literally, because they are writing and dissecting it as if it occurred literally. Are you playing dumb?

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

Now you’re being hysterical. Surely I am triumphed. Look up hysterical by the way, I do not want you to miss the root meaning. Please copy and paste where someone yelled or called your faith stupid. I invited you and others for a dialogue about the Gospels. I’ll wait.

Oh, let me understand, you want to participate in a discussion about religion, but no one can question your faith? Well, what kind of discussion is that? Is that debate? Or should we all sit here and let you and others prosletize to us? If I wanted a sermon, I know where to find the church. I thought we were having a debate. Hmmm.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Good point, but I think there is more to the story than just that. I would say the Garden was much bigger than just a bedroom. You placed the playboy right next to your son, while I think Adam and Eve had to go out of their way to get to the tree. This is what free will is. Your son could listen to you over your brother, but I guess your son would prefer to give into temptation. That is our choice. I sin and that is my choice.

God never said that the tree was his. God told them that if they were to eat from the tree they would surely die. The snake, serpent, Satan is the one that said, “you would become like God.” Does that mean that they would die immediately or just would die? By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot. He also made a way for them to come back to him through Jesus. So I would say there is more to the story than just God kicking them out of the house.
[/quote]

Can we agree that God created the serpent (Satan)? If so, that means the God wanted them to be tested and ultimately knew they would fail. I knew my son would give into wanting that playboy cause I was his age once I know what he’s thinking inside. God in the adam and eve story knew that the serpent would succeed in tempting them. Free will or not, people have breaking points. God knew theirs.

“By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot.”

I wouldn’t kick them out of my house. I would apologize for creating/inviting over something that would tempt them. I would also apologize for putting something they can’t resist right next to them rather in some other place they couldn’t get to.

[/quote]

I will agree that God created Lucifer the Angel of Light. God did not create sin. Was it the tree/fruit that actually brought about the sin or was it the action of Adam and Eve defying God that brought about the sin? To me it is the action or choice of Adam and Eve to defy God is what brought about sin, so IMO God did not creat sin, but Adam and Eve that did. God could have picked the most rotten piece of fruit in the garden and IMO Adam and Eve would still have eaten it. Once they ate it they knew that God would be angry with them.

You might look at this as Spin, but you can not discount the logic.[/quote]

Hmmm…raising hand at the back of the class. Are you absolutely sure that Lucifer and Satan are one in the same by scripture or, are they commonly thought to be one in the same by interpretation, without regard to accuracy? You should freshen up on Satan, Lucifer, et als., because it’s relevant.

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]
That analogy does not fit with what happened in the Garden of Eden.

First of all a Playboy magazine to a 13 year old kid going through puberty is and enticement because it is restricting a natural desire to be attracted to pretty women. That would be unfair. God did not prohibit them from performing any natural desires or functions. Again, when they got hungry all they had to do was eat from any other tree until they were satisfied. The forbidden tree was not the only tree available to eat from so the restriction was not the only source of food like the one Playboy being the only source to satisfy a 13 year old’s desire.

Two, as you stated in your analogy you know that the 13 year old is dying to see the playboy. In other words he already knows about Playboys and already has a desire to look at them. Adam and Eve did not know anything about the tree. God did not explain the tree’s significance. The tree had food on it and they could have gotten that food from any other tree. That’s why that was such a fair test because it was not overly restrictive in any way. Adam and Eve weren’t dying to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree like the kid in your analogy is dying to see the Playboy.

Third, the Bible doesn’t state that God told them the restriction and then sent Satan in the garden to intentionally test them. No, Satan did this completely on his own. God may have known that Satan was going to do that and if he did he wisely let the situation play out so that the issues about God’s sovereignty and whether humans can rule themselves could be raised and then God could completely and throughly address them.

Forth, the snake was just a mouth piece or puppet Satan used to tempt Eve. The spirit being that became Satan the Devil who was created long before Adam and Eve is the one to blame.

This is a more fitting analogy (not a perfect analogy).

Say if one owned a winery and had many acres of land to run his winery business. An in-law is going through hard times so the owner invites him to live on his land and work for him. The owner gives him his own living quarters and supports him financially with anything he needs. Since this is the owners business and his property he naturally want the in-law to obey and listen to what he has to say but the owner is not 100 percent certain he will. To see if he will listen to the owner decides to test his loyalty right away. The owner have a magic bottle of wine that will enable the person who drinks it the ability to start and run a successful wine business. So the owner takes his in-law down into the wine cellar where there are thousands of bottles of wine. The owners magic bottle is sitting on the table. The owner doesn’t tell him the significance of the bottle so that when he looks at it looks just like the other thousands of bottles on the shelves. The owner then tells him that when he gets thirsty he can take any bottle of wine he wants except the bottle on the table. He also tells the in-law the penalty for drinking wine from the bottle on the table is being kicked out. At this point this is a very fair test because the owner is not being overly restrictive because there are thousands of other bottles he can drink from when he gets thirsty, he doesn’t know the significance of wine and not drinking wine from the bottle on the table is the only restriction.

Later, one of your sons comes in and says to the in-law. “Is it really so that you can’t drink any wine at all?” The in-law then says “no I can drink from any bottle except for the bottle on the table because if I do I will get kicked out.” The son then says “that’s a lie he will not kick you out. The owner knows that if you drink from that bottle you will have the ability to run the business better than he can.” At that moment the in-law then begins to desire that wine so that he can take over the business and run it better than the owner. He desires that wine because he can’t get the same affect from any other wine except for the wine on the table. The in-law then gives into temptation and drinks the wine. When the owner approaches him and ask him why he drank the wine, instead of saying sorry and asking for forgiveness he say “Your son who you introduced me to said I should drink the wine so I drank it.” At that moment you would call your guards in and kick both the in-law and the son off your property.

This is similiar to what happened in the Garden of Eden.[/quote]

I will say that is a really good analogy/story and put into todays terms. Good Job.

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.[/quote]

Not sure he was really talking about you in particular. And how have you refuted? Do you have hard evidence that this did not happen? You have stated your opinion, which is perfectly fine, and provided hat you BELIEVE to be evidence to the contrary BASED on your opinion.

You really haven’t refuted unless you can say you know, 100%, it didn’t happen AND you have the hard evidence to back it up. You’ve only disagreed based on what you feel, or think, is true.

[/quote]

Good post. And it’s a great post as long as you understand that it applies equally to you and others here that are pro-christian.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.[/quote]

No, people are explaining their faiths and all you and Body are doing is simply saying it ain’t so - that’s all you’re doing.

Neither of you have refuted anything - you’ve only given your opinion of a faith that is not your own[/quote]

As I said prior, you started strong, but you need GPP for religion. Please copy and paste for reference to support the above. I remember very distinctly inviting a dialogue about the Gospels, one by one. How can an allegorical story about an Adam and Eve and sin be refuted. If you and others want to literally believe it happened how can it be refuted? It can no more be refuted than the story of Alice in Wonderland. I can’t prove or refute that Alice went down a hole. Likewise, I can’t refute that Eve did not actually speak with a talking serpent. But I do know that most BIBLICAL SCHOLARS will admit the story is allegorical. However, there is more than one here that quite clearly believe it literally.

[quote]cueball wrote:
Irish, sorry, i’m allowing this thread to become a your right, I’m wrong thread. I’ll stop.

But I will throw this topic in for discussion. Genesis 3 does not explicitly state that Lucifer was the serpent or that he spoke through the serpent. Where then does the widely held assumption come from that it was? Is there scripture elsewhere that explains this?

Is it because of Revelation 12:9 that this view is held?[/quote]

That is a good verse to use, and I personally have to assume the serpent is Lucifer/Satan. Since he is known as the tempter and liar. The character of the snake falls into lines with who Satan is.

This is me just hypothesising again so I might be off base. Satan is a Dragon in the book of Revelation as seen in 12:9. A dragon is a serpent/reptile so maybe the original serpent is just a small dragon and Adam and Eve perceive it to be a serpent. Two books written 2000-5000 years apart and they follow the same way of thinking.

[quote]cueball wrote:
Irish, sorry, i’m allowing this thread to become a your right, I’m wrong thread. I’ll stop.

But I will throw this topic in for discussion. Genesis 3 does not explicitly state that Lucifer was the serpent or that he spoke through the serpent. Where then does the widely held assumption come from that it was? Is there scripture elsewhere that explains this?

Is it because of Revelation 12:9 that this view is held?[/quote]

It’s only widely held amongst Christians. The other faiths that incorporate the books of Abraham don’t see it that way. Nor does Satan = Lucifer (NT) = “The Devil”. It was really Christian apocrypha that put that all together, and made up the Heaven/Hell/War story. And then even as a Christian you have to put a like the idea, and put more faith in Revelations than the rest of the Bible to really buy into it. And who wrote Revelations anyway? Many people I think just assume it was John the apostle, but it wasn’t, it was another John. Just some John, who through Early Church politics got his book into the cannon. For the first 1300 years of the canonized Bible’s existence no one but poets found the book interesting, and many of the Church scholastics (many of whom are Catholic Saints) regarded it as “semi-cannon”. It was really the protestant reformation that got people interested in it.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
My feelings are not hurt. You are simply not refuting anything.

It is this simply. We have a document (compiled from thousands of ancient manuscripts) - the [/quote]

1000 years from now, the Book of Mormon will survive and there will likely be thousands of transcripts, partial and whole. And they will all agree with one another :slight_smile:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]
That analogy does not fit with what happened in the Garden of Eden.

First of all a Playboy magazine to a 13 year old kid going through puberty is and enticement because it is restricting a natural desire to be attracted to pretty women. That would be unfair. God did not prohibit them from performing any natural desires or functions. Again, when they got hungry all they had to do was eat from any other tree until they were satisfied. The forbidden tree was not the only tree available to eat from so the restriction was not the only source of food like the one Playboy being the only source to satisfy a 13 year old’s desire.

Two, as you stated in your analogy you know that the 13 year old is dying to see the playboy. In other words he already knows about Playboys and already has a desire to look at them. Adam and Eve did not know anything about the tree. God did not explain the tree’s significance. The tree had food on it and they could have gotten that food from any other tree. That’s why that was such a fair test because it was not overly restrictive in any way. Adam and Eve weren’t dying to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree like the kid in your analogy is dying to see the Playboy.

Third, the Bible doesn’t state that God told them the restriction and then sent Satan in the garden to intentionally test them. No, Satan did this completely on his own. God may have known that Satan was going to do that and if he did he wisely let the situation play out so that the issues about God’s sovereignty and whether humans can rule themselves could be raised and then God could completely and throughly address them.

Forth, the snake was just a mouth piece or puppet Satan used to tempt Eve. The spirit being that became Satan the Devil who was created long before Adam and Eve is the one to blame.

This is a more fitting analogy (not a perfect analogy).

Say if one owned a winery and had many acres of land to run his winery business. An in-law is going through hard times so the owner invites him to live on his land and work for him. The owner gives him his own living quarters and supports him financially with anything he needs. Since this is the owners business and his property he naturally want the in-law to obey and listen to what he has to say but the owner is not 100 percent certain he will. To see if he will listen to the owner decides to test his loyalty right away. The owner have a magic bottle of wine that will enable the person who drinks it the ability to start and run a successful wine business. So the owner takes his in-law down into the wine cellar where there are thousands of bottles of wine. The owners magic bottle is sitting on the table. The owner doesn’t tell him the significance of the bottle so that when he looks at it looks just like the other thousands of bottles on the shelves. The owner then tells him that when he gets thirsty he can take any bottle of wine he wants except the bottle on the table. He also tells the in-law the penalty for drinking wine from the bottle on the table is being kicked out. At this point this is a very fair test because the owner is not being overly restrictive because there are thousands of other bottles he can drink from when he gets thirsty, he doesn’t know the significance of wine and not drinking wine from the bottle on the table is the only restriction.

Later, one of your sons comes in and says to the in-law. “Is it really so that you can’t drink any wine at all?” The in-law then says “no I can drink from any bottle except for the bottle on the table because if I do I will get kicked out.” The son then says “that’s a lie he will not kick you out. The owner knows that if you drink from that bottle you will have the ability to run the business better than he can.” At that moment the in-law then begins to desire that wine so that he can take over the business and run it better than the owner. He desires that wine because he can’t get the same affect from any other wine except for the wine on the table. The in-law then gives into temptation and drinks the wine. When the owner approaches him and ask him why he drank the wine, instead of saying sorry and asking for forgiveness he say “Your son who you introduced me to said I should drink the wine so I drank it.” At that moment you would call your guards in and kick both the in-law and the son off your property.

This is similiar to what happened in the Garden of Eden.[/quote]

ding ding ding ding ding…here is at least one person that believes in the LITERAL tale of adam and eve.

[quote]cueball wrote:
Irish, sorry, i’m allowing this thread to become a your right, I’m wrong thread. I’ll stop.

But I will throw this topic in for discussion. Genesis 3 does not explicitly state that Lucifer was the serpent or that he spoke through the serpent. Where then does the widely held assumption come from that it was? Is there scripture elsewhere that explains this?

Is it because of Revelation 12:9 that this view is held?[/quote]

I’m waiting on this with baited breath. And I want scholarly references that these various permutations of “evil” are one in the same by textual evidence - not dogma adopted over the ages.

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
Irish, sorry, i’m allowing this thread to become a your right, I’m wrong thread. I’ll stop.

But I will throw this topic in for discussion. Genesis 3 does not explicitly state that Lucifer was the serpent or that he spoke through the serpent. Where then does the widely held assumption come from that it was? Is there scripture elsewhere that explains this?

Is it because of Revelation 12:9 that this view is held?[/quote]

It’s only widely held amongst Christians. The other faiths that incorporate the books of Abraham don’t see it that way. Nor does Satan = Lucifer (NT) = “The Devil”. It was really Christian apocrypha that put that all together, and made up the Heaven/Hell/War story. And then even as a Christian you have to put a like the idea, and put more faith in Revelations than the rest of the Bible to really buy into it. And who wrote Revelations anyway? Many people I think just assume it was John the apostle, but it wasn’t, it was another John. Just some John, who through Early Church politics got his book into the cannon. For the first 1300 years of the canonized Bible’s existence no one but poets found the book interesting, and many of the Church scholastics (many of whom are Catholic Saints) regarded it as “semi-cannon”. It was really the protestant reformation that got people interested in it.[/quote]

Ahhh a breath of fresh air. They speak of Satan, and do not bother to know him.