Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?

dmaddox · May 18, 2010, 4:54pm

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
Irish, sorry, i’m allowing this thread to become a your right, I’m wrong thread. I’ll stop.

But I will throw this topic in for discussion. Genesis 3 does not explicitly state that Lucifer was the serpent or that he spoke through the serpent. Where then does the widely held assumption come from that it was? Is there scripture elsewhere that explains this?

Is it because of Revelation 12:9 that this view is held?[/quote]

It’s only widely held amongst Christians. The other faiths that incorporate the books of Abraham don’t see it that way. Nor does Satan = Lucifer (NT) = “The Devil”. It was really Christian apocrypha that put that all together, and made up the Heaven/Hell/War story. And then even as a Christian you have to put a like the idea, and put more faith in Revelations than the rest of the Bible to really buy into it. And who wrote Revelations anyway? Many people I think just assume it was John the apostle, but it wasn’t, it was another John. Just some John, who through Early Church politics got his book into the cannon. For the first 1300 years of the canonized Bible’s existence no one but poets found the book interesting, and many of the Church scholastics (many of whom are Catholic Saints) regarded it as “semi-cannon”. It was really the protestant reformation that got people interested in it.[/quote]

Good post.

You have to take Revelation first in context of the time it was written. The John who wrote it was trying to potray the battle between Rome and Christians. The Ceasar Nero’s name if put into numbers comes to the number 666. Nero was killing Christians by the droves. More Christians died in the colleseum than any other religious group or gladiators. If you put Revelation into that context first then it makes perfect sense. Revelation is Apocolyptic in nature as is Daniel so there is a second future meaning that is also put into context. I think this is where the battle of Heaven vs Hell comes into play.

IrishSteel · May 18, 2010, 4:55pm

[quote]cueball wrote:
Irish, sorry, i’m allowing this thread to become a your right, I’m wrong thread. I’ll stop.

But I will throw this topic in for discussion. Genesis 3 does not explicitly state that Lucifer was the serpent or that he spoke through the serpent. Where then does the widely held assumption come from that it was? Is there scripture elsewhere that explains this?

Is it because of Revelation 12:9 that this view is held?[/quote]

Actually a very fascinating question - I think Push had touched on this one earlier, but let me clarify a few points and then we can get to some of the passages

First, Eve was not surprised by the serpent speaking to her. If it were an unknown or uncommon practice for a creature to speak, she would have run away in fright. Modern scientist are taking great pains to understand the communications and emotions of animals with some remarkable success. So I do not find it a stretch of logic at all to assume that in the perfect environment of the garden man and animal were able to communicate

Secondly, it dmeonstrates that there was a unique relationship between human and animal in the garden, because the serpent in our day is a poisonous threat - we even avoid the non-poisonous ones just to be safe. Again, holding with the doctrine that sin altered man and all relationships within the rest of creation.

OK - back to the passages, yes it is based on the passages from Revelation. In addition, Satan is credited with being in the garden, being the father of lies, possessing people and presumably creatures - thus it is entirely plausible that he possessed the serpent’s mind or that he in some way influenced the serpent to tempt Eve.

This is a good line of inquiry - hopefull Push can add his thoughts as well.

I will try to locate some the exact passages (man my memory sucks - lol) and post additional thoughts later

Sloth · May 18, 2010, 5:14pm

[quote]Spartiates wrote:
And then even as a Christian you have to put a like the idea, and put more faith in Revelations than the rest of the Bible to really buy into it. [/quote]

Why do people try to argue for both side of the debate. Please, don’t speak for us.

pat · May 18, 2010, 5:24pm

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Good point, but I think there is more to the story than just that. I would say the Garden was much bigger than just a bedroom. You placed the playboy right next to your son, while I think Adam and Eve had to go out of their way to get to the tree. This is what free will is. Your son could listen to you over your brother, but I guess your son would prefer to give into temptation. That is our choice. I sin and that is my choice.

God never said that the tree was his. God told them that if they were to eat from the tree they would surely die. The snake, serpent, Satan is the one that said, “you would become like God.” Does that mean that they would die immediately or just would die? By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot. He also made a way for them to come back to him through Jesus. So I would say there is more to the story than just God kicking them out of the house.
[/quote]

Can we agree that God created the serpent (Satan)? If so, that means the God wanted them to be tested and ultimately knew they would fail. I knew my son would give into wanting that playboy cause I was his age once I know what he’s thinking inside. God in the adam and eve story knew that the serpent would succeed in tempting them. Free will or not, people have breaking points. God knew theirs.

“By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot.”

I wouldn’t kick them out of my house. I would apologize for creating/inviting over something that would tempt them. I would also apologize for putting something they can’t resist right next to them rather in some other place they couldn’t get to.

[/quote]

I will agree that God created Lucifer the Angel of Light. God did not create sin. Was it the tree/fruit that actually brought about the sin or was it the action of Adam and Eve defying God that brought about the sin? To me it is the action or choice of Adam and Eve to defy God is what brought about sin, so IMO God did not creat sin, but Adam and Eve that did. God could have picked the most rotten piece of fruit in the garden and IMO Adam and Eve would still have eaten it. Once they ate it they knew that God would be angry with them.

You might look at this as Spin, but you can not discount the logic.[/quote]

Sure I can

When did Lucifer become Satan? What is the time difference between Lucifers fall and Adams fall?

God created everything, so that means God created the tree knowing what it would do. God created sin. God created Satan. And God put them all in the same room with two people who have never been tempted in their lives. What did he expect to happen?[/quote]

God didn’t create satan as an adversary. He chose to be an adversary. Now God did create the possibility to be opposed, but that’s not the same as creating the opposition.

However, I honestly know if this is exactly what took place or not, but it’s possible.

BackInAction · May 18, 2010, 5:28pm

[quote]pat wrote: