Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
716

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Because you’re obviously talking to some people that believe literally, instead of the allegorical, which is crystal clear to me. You have people that have taken an allegorical story and are now wondering about the relative physical positions of “Adam” and “Eve” and defending talking serpents. It is alarming. And that’s why it doesn’t pass the logic test - it’s not a literal story.
[/quote]

Wow - so the sum total of all of your comments is: Some of us are literal and some allegorical in our interpretation and you don’t believe it at all.

OK - thanks, you can go back to whatever else you were doing because we already knew that.

717

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I am personally on the fence of whether it is literal or allegorical. God created everything is literal. The story of Adam and Eve might be allegorical, but it does explain where sin comes from which is literal. I can not discount the two sides of this issue. We have a talking serpent, but we also in other parts of the Bible a talking donkey. We have spirits, a hand writing on the wall, and demon posessed people. I would say this is where mysticism comes into play. Hard for enlightened people to believe logical? There must be a logical reason. You see it today with people on their death beds, and science can not explain why a person was miracously healed. Ask a PhD and they are more likely to think like BodyGuard and BackinAction, but ask an MD and they are more likely to think like me. The PhD does research, but does not see the works done, so they can not wrap their hands around what God does for his people. The MD sees the works done, but not the research, so they are not bogged down with what is logical and what is not. You kind of see my point? [/quote]

No. Not at all. No rebuttal required.

718

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
The text simply says that the serpent spoke to Eve - thus by default negating the immediate presence of Adam (within earshot). She takes and eats the fruit and then gives some to Adam - now, he may have been nearby, he mave have been out riding a buffalo - but he was not the one tempted by the serpent - that much is clear to me.[/quote]

For clarification, do you literally believe a serpent spoke to “Eve”?[/quote]

Do you enjoy intentionally playing dumb? Just curious cause you try and write “smart”, and then you type things like this. You KNOW there is more to the story than just a “talking snake”.

719

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Good point, but I think there is more to the story than just that. I would say the Garden was much bigger than just a bedroom. You placed the playboy right next to your son, while I think Adam and Eve had to go out of their way to get to the tree. This is what free will is. Your son could listen to you over your brother, but I guess your son would prefer to give into temptation. That is our choice. I sin and that is my choice.

God never said that the tree was his. God told them that if they were to eat from the tree they would surely die. The snake, serpent, Satan is the one that said, “you would become like God.” Does that mean that they would die immediately or just would die? By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot. He also made a way for them to come back to him through Jesus. So I would say there is more to the story than just God kicking them out of the house.
[/quote]

Soooo, lemme see here…I’m a bit dense but if I’m following you correctly:

The garden of eden was very large, and the tree very far away.

God owned a certain tree, that was his. Only God could eat from this tree because, well, Gods get hungry from time to time.

Along comes a talking snake and, instead of running as fast as you can from this talking snake (did all animals talk back then maybe?), Eve, perhaps the only woman ever to be unafraid of snakes, held a discourse on fruit, when an abundance of said fruit was readily available. Hmm.

Clothing them was a step “in the right direction”.

He made a way for them to come back thru Jesus. So, following this bit of logic, Adam and Eve were alive during the time of Jesus?

You’re not serious are you? I ask again, do you believe the biblical story of Adam and Eve literally occurred?[/quote]

More playing dumb.

720

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Because you’re obviously talking to some people that believe literally, instead of the allegorical, which is crystal clear to me. You have people that have taken an allegorical story and are now wondering about the relative physical positions of “Adam” and “Eve” and defending talking serpents. It is alarming. And that’s why it doesn’t pass the logic test - it’s not a literal story.
[/quote]

I am personally on the fence of whether it is literal or allegorical. God created everything is literal. The story of Adam and Eve might be allegorical, but it does explain where sin comes from which is literal. I can not discount the two sides of this issue. We have a talking serpent, but we also in other parts of the Bible a talking donkey. We have spirits, a hand writing on the wall, and demon posessed people. I would say this is where mysticism comes into play. Hard for enlightened people to believe logical? There must be a logical reason. You see it today with people on their death beds, and science can not explain why a person was miracously healed. Ask a PhD and they are more likely to think like BodyGuard and BackinAction, but ask an MD and they are more likely to think like me. The PhD does research, but does not see the works done, so they can not wrap their hands around what God does for his people. The MD sees the works done, but not the research, so they are not bogged down with what is logical and what is not. You kind of see my point? [/quote]

I can definitely understand where you’re at with thinking this through. My advice would be to look around you: do you see any evidence of anything described in that story? They are making a claim about creation. It is your job to take the default position (that their adam and eve story is unproven and false) and use your reasoning and any evidence you can gather to prove it’s true. If you cannot, you must determine it’s false (at least at that point in time).

721

And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid.

722

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Good point, but I think there is more to the story than just that. I would say the Garden was much bigger than just a bedroom. You placed the playboy right next to your son, while I think Adam and Eve had to go out of their way to get to the tree. This is what free will is. Your son could listen to you over your brother, but I guess your son would prefer to give into temptation. That is our choice. I sin and that is my choice.

God never said that the tree was his. God told them that if they were to eat from the tree they would surely die. The snake, serpent, Satan is the one that said, “you would become like God.” Does that mean that they would die immediately or just would die? By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot. He also made a way for them to come back to him through Jesus. So I would say there is more to the story than just God kicking them out of the house.
[/quote]

Can we agree that God created the serpent (Satan)? If so, that means the God wanted them to be tested and ultimately knew they would fail. I knew my son would give into wanting that playboy cause I was his age once I know what he’s thinking inside. God in the adam and eve story knew that the serpent would succeed in tempting them. Free will or not, people have breaking points. God knew theirs.

“By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot.”

I wouldn’t kick them out of my house. I would apologize for creating/inviting over something that would tempt them. I would also apologize for putting something they can’t resist right next to them rather in some other place they couldn’t get to.

[/quote]

I will agree that God created Lucifer the Angel of Light. God did not create sin. Was it the tree/fruit that actually brought about the sin or was it the action of Adam and Eve defying God that brought about the sin? To me it is the action or choice of Adam and Eve to defy God is what brought about sin, so IMO God did not creat sin, but Adam and Eve that did. God could have picked the most rotten piece of fruit in the garden and IMO Adam and Eve would still have eaten it. Once they ate it they knew that God would be angry with them.

You might look at this as Spin, but you can not discount the logic.

723

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.

724

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Good point, but I think there is more to the story than just that. I would say the Garden was much bigger than just a bedroom. You placed the playboy right next to your son, while I think Adam and Eve had to go out of their way to get to the tree. This is what free will is. Your son could listen to you over your brother, but I guess your son would prefer to give into temptation. That is our choice. I sin and that is my choice.

God never said that the tree was his. God told them that if they were to eat from the tree they would surely die. The snake, serpent, Satan is the one that said, “you would become like God.” Does that mean that they would die immediately or just would die? By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot. He also made a way for them to come back to him through Jesus. So I would say there is more to the story than just God kicking them out of the house.
[/quote]

Can we agree that God created the serpent (Satan)? If so, that means the God wanted them to be tested and ultimately knew they would fail. I knew my son would give into wanting that playboy cause I was his age once I know what he’s thinking inside. God in the adam and eve story knew that the serpent would succeed in tempting them. Free will or not, people have breaking points. God knew theirs.

“By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot.”

I wouldn’t kick them out of my house. I would apologize for creating/inviting over something that would tempt them. I would also apologize for putting something they can’t resist right next to them rather in some other place they couldn’t get to.

[/quote]

I will agree that God created Lucifer the Angel of Light. God did not create sin. Was it the tree/fruit that actually brought about the sin or was it the action of Adam and Eve defying God that brought about the sin? To me it is the action or choice of Adam and Eve to defy God is what brought about sin, so IMO God did not creat sin, but Adam and Eve that did. God could have picked the most rotten piece of fruit in the garden and IMO Adam and Eve would still have eaten it. Once they ate it they knew that God would be angry with them.

You might look at this as Spin, but you can not discount the logic.[/quote]

Sure I can :slight_smile:

When did Lucifer become Satan? What is the time difference between Lucifers fall and Adams fall?

God created everything, so that means God created the tree knowing what it would do. God created sin. God created Satan. And God put them all in the same room with two people who have never been tempted in their lives. What did he expect to happen?

725

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Because you’re obviously talking to some people that believe literally, instead of the allegorical, which is crystal clear to me. You have people that have taken an allegorical story and are now wondering about the relative physical positions of “Adam” and “Eve” and defending talking serpents. It is alarming. And that’s why it doesn’t pass the logic test - it’s not a literal story.
[/quote]

I am personally on the fence of whether it is literal or allegorical. God created everything is literal. The story of Adam and Eve might be allegorical, but it does explain where sin comes from which is literal. I can not discount the two sides of this issue. We have a talking serpent, but we also in other parts of the Bible a talking donkey. We have spirits, a hand writing on the wall, and demon posessed people. I would say this is where mysticism comes into play. Hard for enlightened people to believe logical? There must be a logical reason. You see it today with people on their death beds, and science can not explain why a person was miracously healed. Ask a PhD and they are more likely to think like BodyGuard and BackinAction, but ask an MD and they are more likely to think like me. The PhD does research, but does not see the works done, so they can not wrap their hands around what God does for his people. The MD sees the works done, but not the research, so they are not bogged down with what is logical and what is not. You kind of see my point? [/quote]

I can definitely understand where you’re at with thinking this through. My advice would be to look around you: do you see any evidence of anything described in that story? They are making a claim about creation. It is your job to take the default position (that their adam and eve story is unproven and false) and use your reasoning and any evidence you can gather to prove it’s true. If you cannot, you must determine it’s false (at least at that point in time).

[/quote]

You may not be able to beleive this story happened, but I can. There is no eveidence whether or not the story happened. Again this is where faith comes into play. I see your logical arguments, but again that does not show there is evidence that it did not happen. I guess we are going to have to wait and see.

726

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Because you’re obviously talking to some people that believe literally, instead of the allegorical, which is crystal clear to me. You have people that have taken an allegorical story and are now wondering about the relative physical positions of “Adam” and “Eve” and defending talking serpents. It is alarming. And that’s why it doesn’t pass the logic test - it’s not a literal story.
[/quote]

I am personally on the fence of whether it is literal or allegorical. God created everything is literal. The story of Adam and Eve might be allegorical, but it does explain where sin comes from which is literal. I can not discount the two sides of this issue. We have a talking serpent, but we also in other parts of the Bible a talking donkey. We have spirits, a hand writing on the wall, and demon posessed people. I would say this is where mysticism comes into play. Hard for enlightened people to believe logical? There must be a logical reason. You see it today with people on their death beds, and science can not explain why a person was miracously healed. Ask a PhD and they are more likely to think like BodyGuard and BackinAction, but ask an MD and they are more likely to think like me. The PhD does research, but does not see the works done, so they can not wrap their hands around what God does for his people. The MD sees the works done, but not the research, so they are not bogged down with what is logical and what is not. You kind of see my point? [/quote]

I can definitely understand where you’re at with thinking this through. My advice would be to look around you: do you see any evidence of anything described in that story? They are making a claim about creation. It is your job to take the default position (that their adam and eve story is unproven and false) and use your reasoning and any evidence you can gather to prove it’s true. If you cannot, you must determine it’s false (at least at that point in time).

[/quote]

You may not be able to beleive this story happened, but I can. There is no eveidence whether or not the story happened. Again this is where faith comes into play. I see your logical arguments, but again that does not show there is evidence that it did not happen. I guess we are going to have to wait and see.[/quote]

I know you can believe it and that’s my concern. If something does not have evidence, you should not put faith in it. You should just understand it may or may not be true, but as you can tell now, it’s not true.

727

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.[/quote]

Not sure he was really talking about you in particular. And how have you refuted? Do you have hard evidence that this did not happen? You have stated your opinion, which is perfectly fine, and provided hat you BELIEVE to be evidence to the contrary BASED on your opinion.

You really haven’t refuted unless you can say you know, 100%, it didn’t happen AND you have the hard evidence to back it up. You’ve only disagreed based on what you feel, or think, is true.

728

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.[/quote]

No, people are explaining their faiths and all you and Body are doing is simply saying it ain’t so - that’s all you’re doing.

Neither of you have refuted anything - you’ve only given your opinion of a faith that is not your own

729

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
[/quote]

Good point, but I think there is more to the story than just that. I would say the Garden was much bigger than just a bedroom. You placed the playboy right next to your son, while I think Adam and Eve had to go out of their way to get to the tree. This is what free will is. Your son could listen to you over your brother, but I guess your son would prefer to give into temptation. That is our choice. I sin and that is my choice.

God never said that the tree was his. God told them that if they were to eat from the tree they would surely die. The snake, serpent, Satan is the one that said, “you would become like God.” Does that mean that they would die immediately or just would die? By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot. He also made a way for them to come back to him through Jesus. So I would say there is more to the story than just God kicking them out of the house.
[/quote]

Can we agree that God created the serpent (Satan)? If so, that means the God wanted them to be tested and ultimately knew they would fail. I knew my son would give into wanting that playboy cause I was his age once I know what he’s thinking inside. God in the adam and eve story knew that the serpent would succeed in tempting them. Free will or not, people have breaking points. God knew theirs.

“By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot.”

I wouldn’t kick them out of my house. I would apologize for creating/inviting over something that would tempt them. I would also apologize for putting something they can’t resist right next to them rather in some other place they couldn’t get to.

[/quote]

I will agree that God created Lucifer the Angel of Light. God did not create sin. Was it the tree/fruit that actually brought about the sin or was it the action of Adam and Eve defying God that brought about the sin? To me it is the action or choice of Adam and Eve to defy God is what brought about sin, so IMO God did not creat sin, but Adam and Eve that did. God could have picked the most rotten piece of fruit in the garden and IMO Adam and Eve would still have eaten it. Once they ate it they knew that God would be angry with them.

You might look at this as Spin, but you can not discount the logic.[/quote]

Sure I can :slight_smile:

When did Lucifer become Satan? What is the time difference between Lucifers fall and Adams fall?

God created everything, so that means God created the tree knowing what it would do. God created sin. God created Satan. And God put them all in the same room with two people who have never been tempted in their lives. What did he expect to happen?[/quote]

God created everything and it was Good. Sin is bad. Sin is an act of disobedience and not something created by God. The tree did not do anything, just like money in and of itself has no morals of being good or bad. You can do good with money or bad, but it is up to you to decide how it is used.

You are trying to come to a conclusion on Lucifer/Satan and using Time. If you look at the book of Revelation Lucifer has not fallen from Heaven yet, so has he sinned yet? Time is very difficult when talking about God and Heaven. This is something that is above my head to explain in logical reasoning.

730

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.[/quote]

Not sure he was really talking about you in particular. And how have you refuted? Do you have hard evidence that this did not happen? You have stated your opinion, which is perfectly fine, and provided hat you BELIEVE to be evidence to the contrary BASED on your opinion.

You really haven’t refuted unless you can say you know, 100%, it didn’t happen AND you have the hard evidence to back it up. You’ve only disagreed based on what you feel, or think, is true.

[/quote]

You are correct that I have no evidence, but you are incorrect in your assertion that I haven’t been able to refute the story of Adam and Eve. The only way to refute ideas is through argument. This is what I’ve been doing.

731

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.[/quote]

No, people are explaining their faiths and all you and Body are doing is simply saying it ain’t so - that’s all you’re doing.

Neither of you have refuted anything - you’ve only given your opinion of a faith that is not your own[/quote]

You haven’t been following my posts very much, have you? I’m not an Atheist. I’m an Agnostic. This thread is about discussing religion and that’s what I’m doing. I’m sorry if you’re feelings are hurt, but that’s not my aim.

732

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Why did God create the serpent in the first place (especially with the capabilities it had)?

Here’s an analogy: Say I have a kid and he turns 13 years old. At the house, we are all sitting around when I show him a playboy. I tell him “you cannot look at this or touch this, it is mine and mine alone”. I leave the room, but send in my brother in law who I know likes to tell my kids to do things they shouldn’t. He tells him “it’s okay to read, why would he have put it there in the first place”. When I come back and find out my kid has read it, I blame him INSTEAD of playing my brother in law. I kick my son out of my house.

See why the Adam and Eve story doesn’t make much sense? I know my 13 year old boy would die to see the playboy. So what do I do? I send in the brother in law to just make sure he fails. God did the same thing with the creation of the snake.
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Good point, but I think there is more to the story than just that. I would say the Garden was much bigger than just a bedroom. You placed the playboy right next to your son, while I think Adam and Eve had to go out of their way to get to the tree. This is what free will is. Your son could listen to you over your brother, but I guess your son would prefer to give into temptation. That is our choice. I sin and that is my choice.

God never said that the tree was his. God told them that if they were to eat from the tree they would surely die. The snake, serpent, Satan is the one that said, “you would become like God.” Does that mean that they would die immediately or just would die? By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot. He also made a way for them to come back to him through Jesus. So I would say there is more to the story than just God kicking them out of the house.
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Can we agree that God created the serpent (Satan)? If so, that means the God wanted them to be tested and ultimately knew they would fail. I knew my son would give into wanting that playboy cause I was his age once I know what he’s thinking inside. God in the adam and eve story knew that the serpent would succeed in tempting them. Free will or not, people have breaking points. God knew theirs.

“By kicking your kid out of the house does that mean you would not help him out? God made clothes for Adam and Eve, and helped them start out on the right foot.”

I wouldn’t kick them out of my house. I would apologize for creating/inviting over something that would tempt them. I would also apologize for putting something they can’t resist right next to them rather in some other place they couldn’t get to.

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I will agree that God created Lucifer the Angel of Light. God did not create sin. Was it the tree/fruit that actually brought about the sin or was it the action of Adam and Eve defying God that brought about the sin? To me it is the action or choice of Adam and Eve to defy God is what brought about sin, so IMO God did not creat sin, but Adam and Eve that did. God could have picked the most rotten piece of fruit in the garden and IMO Adam and Eve would still have eaten it. Once they ate it they knew that God would be angry with them.

You might look at this as Spin, but you can not discount the logic.[/quote]

Sure I can :slight_smile:

When did Lucifer become Satan? What is the time difference between Lucifers fall and Adams fall?

God created everything, so that means God created the tree knowing what it would do. God created sin. God created Satan. And God put them all in the same room with two people who have never been tempted in their lives. What did he expect to happen?[/quote]

God created everything and it was Good. Sin is bad. Sin is an act of disobedience and not something created by God. The tree did not do anything, just like money in and of itself has no morals of being good or bad. You can do good with money or bad, but it is up to you to decide how it is used.

You are trying to come to a conclusion on Lucifer/Satan and using Time. If you look at the book of Revelation Lucifer has not fallen from Heaven yet, so has he sinned yet? Time is very difficult when talking about God and Heaven. This is something that is above my head to explain in logical reasoning.[/quote]

Wait, I thought Lucifer was an Angel? How could he be both an Angel and a Serpent?

733

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.[/quote]

Not sure he was really talking about you in particular. And how have you refuted? Do you have hard evidence that this did not happen? You have stated your opinion, which is perfectly fine, and provided hat you BELIEVE to be evidence to the contrary BASED on your opinion.

You really haven’t refuted unless you can say you know, 100%, it didn’t happen AND you have the hard evidence to back it up. You’ve only disagreed based on what you feel, or think, is true.

[/quote]

You are correct that I have no evidence, but you are incorrect in your assertion that I haven’t been able to refute the story of Adam and Eve. The only way to refute ideas is through argument. This is what I’ve been doing.[/quote]

Refute: To PROVE to be false or erroneous, overthrow by argument or proof.

You have PROVED nothing. You have only stated that what you think is different. Nothing has been overthrown (except in your own mind) and no PROOF has been presented that can overthrow any believer’s position in this thread.

734

My feelings are not hurt. You are simply not refuting anything.

It is this simply. We have a document (compiled from thousands of ancient manuscripts) - the content of which we believe to be true and divinely inspired by the Deity revealed within them. Those who accept this document and the faith it established either choose to interpret it literally or figuratively - that can be debated.

Those who do not believe in the veracity of the book have nothing to argue, because their position is simply that they do not believe that the book is true. They cannot argue about the interpretation of that book, because their position is based on it being false, so any discussion of interpretive position would be meaningless with them. They cannot argue about the meaning of any statements or passages from the book, because their starting premise means that regardless of what words are there or how they are interpreted they have already concluded them false.

Any discussion about an aspect of our faith with you (as has been demonstrated time and again in these threads) simply becomes one of our stating what we believe and you stating that it is not true.

735

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
And once again - what should have been a discussion of beliefs has degenerated into the non-believers simply spouting their own theories about a faith they do not hold and yelling at tose who do and calling them and their faith stupid. [/quote]

In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is called “Anyone Interested in a Serious Religious Debate?”. It’s not called “We all believe and non-believers stay out!”. People are making claims and we are refuting them.[/quote]

Not sure he was really talking about you in particular. And how have you refuted? Do you have hard evidence that this did not happen? You have stated your opinion, which is perfectly fine, and provided hat you BELIEVE to be evidence to the contrary BASED on your opinion.

You really haven’t refuted unless you can say you know, 100%, it didn’t happen AND you have the hard evidence to back it up. You’ve only disagreed based on what you feel, or think, is true.

[/quote]

You are correct that I have no evidence, but you are incorrect in your assertion that I haven’t been able to refute the story of Adam and Eve. The only way to refute ideas is through argument. This is what I’ve been doing.[/quote]

Refute: To PROVE to be false or erroneous, overthrow by argument or proof.

You have PROVED nothing. You have only stated that what you think is different. Nothing has been overthrown (except in your own mind) and no PROOF has been presented that can overthrow any believer’s position in this thread.

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To truly prove something that has a physical existence, you need direct evidence. To prove an idea is untrue, you can make logical arguments.