Well, here’s a point to discuss. Something has never arose from nothing. Even if you can prove the Big Bang (and I’m not saying you can’t) back to the first microseconds of what it looked like, where did the singularity come from? The last time I read a book on the history of the universe and the Big Bang it was a question that scientists could not answer so they just basically ignored it. Some have even offered a hypothesis that several Big Bangs may have happen with the universe going through and endless cycle of life and death. It still doesn’t answer where everything came from. So what are some of your thoughts?
[quote]pcgizzmo wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
God did not need to glorify himself - any creation he created would glorify him - the result is part of the act - he creates, he is glorified - not an egotistical matter at all. He is perfect, creates a masterpiece and the masterpieces glorifes his perfection - simpe as 1, 2, 3[/quote]
But we are less than a masterpiece wouldn’t you agree? We kill, we do harm to the earth, we are selfish, egotistical and on and on. I would hardly say that man kind glorify’s God. Which brings me to another point. We do bad things which a Christian will call sin but did not God create this also from Christian perspective? I mean there was nothing and now there is everything including us and sin.
Again, my point about the Bibile and sin etc… etc… make’s no common sense.[/quote]
First, let’s separate his acts from ours - a being created with full free will and the environment to exercise it in? WOW - and have you seen some the amazing human bodies (if not see figure athelete photos on the home page) - MAGNIFICENT!!
Now what we choose to do with what he created - that responsibility falls squarely on our shoulders - we created the choas and pain and death and destruction - not God.
His creating our ability to choose is not the same as our choosing to sin. Free Will
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
IF that’s the manner you want to look at it, sure. But that never sufficed for me. What came before God? What happens after God? How can their be a creator who sprung from nothingness?
[/quote]
By definition, God cannot be created or terminated. Otherwise he would not be an uncaused-cause. He would be a caused-causer, like us.
[quote]
Time is not something that can be controlled necessarily- it only moves forward as far as we know. For God to control it would mean that there is something to control- but there’s no hard thing for him to grasp or change.
To say that he exists independently of time can’t be possible, for that reason that there is no entity- it just is, maybe like christians describe god himself. Maybe God is Time. [/quote]
Oh boy. Time is the measurement movement/ change of physical matter. Where there is no physical matter, there is no time. Not everything that exists is physical, as a matter of fact it’s quite the opposite, most all existence is metaphysical. Physical matter makes up a small portion of existence.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Well, here’s a point to discuss. Something has never arose from nothing. Even if you can prove the Big Bang (and I’m not saying you can’t) back to the first microseconds of what it looked like, where did the singularity come from? The last time I read a book on the history of the universe and the Big Bang it was a question that scientists could not answer so they just basically ignored it. Some have even offered a hypothesis that several Big Bangs may have happen with the universe going through and endless cycle of life and death. It still doesn’t answer where everything came from. So what are some of your thoughts?[/quote]
I do believe that’s where the God part comes in. As I said, with those kinds of questions science and philosophy meld together.
[/quote]
I know that through your posts that you are I guess more of what is considered an agnostic than an atheist. I can respect that. This is a question though that is really open for anything. I, being a Christian, take the Christian point of view, but it’s definitely not the only point of view in the world.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
IF that’s the manner you want to look at it, sure. But that never sufficed for me. What came before God? What happens after God? How can their be a creator who sprung from nothingness?
[/quote]
By definition, God cannot be created or terminated. Otherwise he would not be an uncaused-cause. He would be a caused-causer, like us.
[quote]
Time is not something that can be controlled necessarily- it only moves forward as far as we know. For God to control it would mean that there is something to control- but there’s no hard thing for him to grasp or change.
To say that he exists independently of time can’t be possible, for that reason that there is no entity- it just is, maybe like christians describe god himself. Maybe God is Time. [/quote]
Oh boy. Time is the measurement movement/ change of physical matter. Where there is no physical matter, there is no time. Not everything that exists is physical, as a matter of fact it’s quite the opposite, most all existence is metaphysical. Physical matter makes up a small portion of existence.[/quote]
Time would be one of these non physical concepts. Time, in quantum mechanics, can actually flow forwards and backwards. We, as physical humans, cannot move backwards through time. Time is also controlled by space, hence the term space-time. Without space there is nothing to keep time of. If God were time then he would be limited in the sense that space would have to exist in order for him to move forward or backward. So God could have never created the universe because before its creation there was neither space nor time.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
The thing about these religious threads are, for the most part, the only people involved are those with views so profound that they would never possibly change them. Its like arguing with a retard who’s parents told him his shit is concentrated evil. You ain’t going to change his views with reason and absolute logic vs blind faith. That said I am fucking amaaaaaaazed at how thoroughly people can be brainwashed by a religion(or government) from an early age. Far be it from me to pull the holier than though but to be an actual “Christian” or “Muslim”, ect, I see as the sign of a weak minded person. To not be able to question something that has no evidence and is so goddamn illogical is alarming. Lowest common denominator, man.
And for what its worth I am definitely not calling all strict Christians/ect unintelligent. I think some people have just invested so much into the bullshit they believe it would be a near fatal blow to their pride to reconsider. Hell if I gave 10% of my earnings to my “god” for my whole life I’d be goddamn pressed to say it was in vain - not that their are very man true Christians who give nearly that much.
Again for what its worth, I was a damn good little Christian, untill I picked up the bible and fucking actually read it. How anyone could read that book and offer praise to its god is far beyond me. I wouldn’t offer my worship to that god if he was real and the universe creator. I’d rather go to hell and kick it with Satan. I believe he’d have a nice spot for me next to him, kickin’ back sippin’ brews, chucking some fireballs at some child molesters.
Anyway, I still find myself reading these threads and listening to anyone willing to preach on religion; just looking for a scrap of something to cling to in order to find faith. I’ve looked thoroughly for something like that and I’ll tell ya, I sure as hell have not find it in the least. What I’m saying is I wish their was some God I could worship; what better purpose in life than bettering your God? I just sure have not found this God and judging from these asinine threads or listening to the illogical, often downright false preachings of these religious scholars - neither has anyone else.[/quote]
18 years old and you have everything all figured out, huh? You go git 'em, tiger.[/quote]
Is that what you got out of that? Read it again old man. I was asking anyone to tell me why I should worship their god. I am LOOKING for a goddamn excuse to do so. You think anybody likes not having faith? I’m just not a fucking mindless moron who will offer his worship to a false god. Give me a logical reason to worship a god and see if I don’t do so. In my 18 years I have yet to hear 1 goddamn person give 1 goddamn logical reason to offer worship to their god.
[/quote]
I consider myself a pantheist. My god is the universe. You should worship the universe because (a) you can’t deny its existence (since you would have to exist in order to deny it, and even if only you exist, then that’s the universe and it exists 
), and (b) it contains lots of beautiful women.
Think about it. [/quote]
So since you can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the universe it exists? Not trying to be an ass, but what if your senses were wrong?
[/quote]
Then my senses would have to exist to have the chance to be wrong, and would need a universe to exist within (or be their own universe)
[quote]
Can you see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the wind? I guess you can smell it if you are breaking wind, but I digress. We can only see, hear, taste, touch, and smell the affects of the wind. The same is true for God of the Bible.
I have never been out side the atmosphere, so how can I accept outerspace if I have not been outside the atmosphere. I have to go on faith that NASA is telling me the truth. You see where my argument is going? It takes faith in certain things for me to beleive a lot of stuff that is going on in the world. I believe the Bible because the people that wrote it had a personal expirience with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. That is the same for people that have faith that science is right. They have faith that people smarter than themselves found this proof that X hypothesis is correct.[/quote]
Again, we’re getting into faith with reason and faith against reason. You believe in outerspace because you have no logical reason not to, and believing that it exists aligns with all the available data you have. So you have faith, even though you’ve never seen it, and that faith is supported by reason.
There are many things in the bible that go against reason when you try to believe them in a literal interpretation. Deciding that you believe the bible to be totally correct, and therefore forcing yourself to believe everything in it, even when you have data that contradicts it, is faith without reason.
I have more reason to believe that France exists, even though I cant see it and have never been there, than to believe that an omnipotent deity exists because someone else a thousand years dead is said to have had a personal experience (when I’m getting the story after several hundred years of retellings and translation changes).
Question for you: Why doesn’t God just talk to you directly? Why are all the stories of God talking directly to someone or burning bushes or making other big showy displays of power always thousands of years old, and never happen these days?[/quote]
Good post.
I am going to use the Bible, which many on here to not beleive, but to answer your question. It is because God has sent the Holy Spirit to us. That is how he speaks to us today. Do I hear an audible voice telling me that what I beleive is right? No, but I do sence his precense when I am spending time with God. I know he is leading me.
In this day in time if you went to the Doctor and said, “Doc I was walking in the backyard when all of a sudden my bush caught on fire, but it was not consumed. Then I heard this voice saying go to Iraq and free my people.” What do you think the Doc is going to do to you? Yeah that is right put you in a mental facility. Our enlightenment has deminished the supernatural to nothingness.
I also would like to hear what an atheist has to say about ghosts. Just so you all know ghosts are Biblical. They are conjured by mediums, that are frowned upon by God, but I do believe they do exist.[/quote]
Dmaddox is right, God’s holy spirit is essential to understand the Bible but God wisely had men write everything down to preserve his words. Romans 15:4 states: “For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.” So as God had Bible writers write different books of the Bible that recorded scpecific events God knew that future generations would benefit and learn from these events so he had them written down. God rarely spoke directly to man he mostly used angels to deliver his proclamations or spoke to prophets through dreams. Even when he spoke to Moses through the bush he used an angel to do this. When a Bible writer would write a book in the Bible sometimes God through an angel would tell the Bible writer what to write or God’s holy spirit would empower the Bible writer to write what God wanted him to write. 2 Peter 1:20 explains this well.
So why would written form be better than God speaking to us directly? The complete Bible canon has God’s inspired thoughts and feelings in it and it tells everything from mans perfect start to their down fall, to the history and dealings of the people God’s promised seed would come from, to the start of Christianity right up to the climax of a future vision in Revelation where armegeddon takes place, Satan is destroyed and all pain and suffering is gone. In all of this we see God’s personality, the fact that he can actually be hurt, his dealings with his chosen people, how he protects his faithful servant, forgives his faithful servant when they’re repented and punishes people who ignore repeated warnings. So we have all of this at our fingertips to read at our convenience whenever we want, where ever we want and as many times as we want. That wouldn’t be the case if God spoke to us directly. For example, say if one committed adultery and that one is feeling bad and needed comfort he could turn to a scripture like Acts 3:19 that shows that once God forgives you your sins are actually blotted out like White-out blots out ink. Or he could turn to
2 Samuel and read about David’s sin and how God forgave him. To gain comfort what if this individual wanted to read it over and over again. It would not be practical if a divine being had to repeat over and over again something that you needed for comfort. I know I wouldn’t want to tell a divine being or God to “say that again.” Or if you were on a bus which is were many people read the Bible, imagine if God is talking to you and you get interupted, would you want to say “hold on for a second?” With a Bible you can just shut it and pick up where you left off later. Or imagine if there was a set time of the day that God spoke to people, as busy as people are that would quickly turn into a burden if that was the only time they could hear God. I hope you get my point.
Thank goodness God put the Bible in writing because in written form it is more convenient and better suited for people of today. 2 Timothy 3:15,16 tells of another reason God wrote the Bible. These verse state (King James Version):
“16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
Real quick. To answer the other part of your question. God used miracles such as the ten plagues against Egypt and the large cloud that followed the Israelites in the sky to clearly show that God was with his chosen people. God did this with the Israelites when they were faithful. When they would offer their animal sacrifices a large column of fire would come from the sky and consume the animal. Later, with the Christians in thier infancy as a new religion God’s holy spirit gave them power to perform miracles to clearly show that the nation of Israel was no longer his chosen people but the new groups of Christians were.
1 Corinthians 8:13 states:
“8 Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with.”
So the miracles that the early Christians were able to perform would eventually stop. But, for people who have faith in the Bible all of the miracles mentioned when read are like seeing them occur.
Sorry of the long post.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
AWESOME POST! an intellectual honest statement, Irish! You, my friend, are a breath of fresh air on this thread. Thanks for the openess.[/quote]
Get your tongue out of the mans ass, he said he believes in God, he never said he believed in your flavor of God.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Here. Let me help you test it. Do you remember the state you were in two years before you born? No? That’s because you weren’t in a state. You were nothing. No brain, no you. So, when you die, and your brain dies, nothingness. For a tough talking atheist you’re looking very squeemish.
Edit: Look, Mak, I don’t know where this “it isn’t testable” stuff is coming from. Science tells us our thoughts are the result of neurological/chemical activity in the brain. Unless the toe is now believed to the seat of our consciousness, or something. So anyways, when the brain dies, and those activities cease, you’re gone. Here, another test, though. When the brain dies, are those chemical/neural activities still going on? Even when rot has reduced the brain to a simple putrid slime staining the back of a bare skull? The answer is no. So, oblivion.[/quote]
Off the mark yet again.
This is kind of sad coming from you.
Stop claiming to know these things when it is unbelievably clear that you know nothing about the subject. I might well not have an existence after death, all the more reason to make something of my life. But I STILL DON’T KNOW. If you are going to claim these things about science, fucking back it up. I can’t really say the same for religions who essentially teach that life must be endured until you get to go to heaven.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Again - don’t see a human emotion here.[/quote]
lol
Your space genie quite clearly WANTS to be worshipped, and shows a raft of human emotions.
He (and make no mistake about it, your God is a male) is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
If one can entertain the possibility of an afterlife (some here have), there are no roadblocks to believing in an uncreated Creator. You’ve already dived in the supernatural end of the pool. [/quote]
That’s true as well.[/quote]
The same could be said for a creator-less universe.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Again - don’t see a human emotion here.[/quote]
lol
Your space genie quite clearly WANTS to be worshipped, and shows a raft of human emotions.
He (and make no mistake about it, your God is a male) is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.[/quote]
Well, this was actually regarding the Old Testament God. The New Testament one is the nicer fella, I think.
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Again - don’t see a human emotion here.[/quote]
lol
Your space genie quite clearly WANTS to be worshipped, and shows a raft of human emotions.
He (and make no mistake about it, your God is a male) is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.[/quote]
Well, this was actually regarding the Old Testament God. The New Testament one is the nicer fella, I think.[/quote]
If he were a different God, then sure. But aren’t Christians commanded by their space Fuhrer to take nothing away from what he says? Doesn’t their savior Jebus tell them specifically to follow the law of the Old Testament?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Again - don’t see a human emotion here.[/quote]
lol
Your space genie quite clearly WANTS to be worshipped, and shows a raft of human emotions.
He (and make no mistake about it, your God is a male) is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.[/quote]
While you’re at it, tell us about your ma and pa’s Hindu gods and goddesses if you don’t mind. When you gather around for the Sri Lankan version of Thanksgiving do you spit in their faces with contempt too? Do you tell 'em what fuckin morons they are? Do you needle 'em about their space genies Shiva, Brahma, and Vishnu?[/quote]
My parents are more than aware of my position on theological matters. In fact, my Dad is an agnostic.
Try to make a real point some time soon, your little act gets boring fast.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Here. Let me help you test it. Do you remember the state you were in two years before you born? No? That’s because you weren’t in a state. You were nothing. No brain, no you. So, when you die, and your brain dies, nothingness. For a tough talking atheist you’re looking very squeemish.
Edit: Look, Mak, I don’t know where this “it isn’t testable” stuff is coming from. Science tells us our thoughts are the result of neurological/chemical activity in the brain. Unless the toe is now believed to the seat of our consciousness, or something. So anyways, when the brain dies, and those activities cease, you’re gone. Here, another test, though. When the brain dies, are those chemical/neural activities still going on? Even when rot has reduced the brain to a simple putrid slime staining the back of a bare skull? The answer is no. So, oblivion.[/quote]
Off the mark yet again.
This is kind of sad coming from you.
Stop claiming to know these things when it is unbelievably clear that you know nothing about the subject. I might well not have an existence after death, all the more reason to make something of my life. But I STILL DON’T KNOW. If you are going to claim these things about science, fucking back it up. I can’t really say the same for religions who essentially teach that life must be endured until you get to go to heaven.[/quote]
My claims are backed up by A&P 101. Can you show me the non-corruptible emergency organ to which your consciousness is downloaded after you (your brain) die? However, it can’t merely be a storage device. It must also posses a physiology (like the brain) to allow continued contemplation and self-consideration. Not that it would matter if said organ existed, since it too would quickly perish.
Sorry, no alternative for oblivion exists wihtout a supernatural explanation. For someone who started off calling us cowards, your big bad atheistic self can’t even face your own oblivion without clinging to a hope that some supernatural event could swoop down and pull you back from the nothingness. So, don’t get all self-righteous with me, when it was your own words which bit you on your zealous little ass. It has nothing to with you not knowing. It’s fear. Own up to it like a man. Cut the stupid “I’m an atheist because I don’t fear death! Call me Captain Courageous Pants!” I feel like I’m debating some 9 year old snot.
And, I do know.
- The brain is the organ where our consciousness resides.
- The brain dies and rots.
Hello, you’re gone. Well, barring the supernatural.
Or, wait…You’re not going to challenge me to disprove the existence of an afterlife before claiming I know. Oh how ironic that would be.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Again - don’t see a human emotion here.[/quote]
lol
Your space genie quite clearly WANTS to be worshipped, and shows a raft of human emotions.
He (and make no mistake about it, your God is a male) is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.[/quote]
While you’re at it, tell us about your ma and pa’s Hindu gods and goddesses if you don’t mind. When you gather around for the Sri Lankan version of Thanksgiving do you spit in their faces with contempt too? Do you tell 'em what fuckin morons they are? Do you needle 'em about their space genies Shiva, Brahma, and Vishnu?
Let’s see if you can actually educate and not just attempt to entertain.[/quote]
Ma and Pa get a pass. They aren’t delusional, fear-based, folk who should be taunted. Like, how he talks to others, basically. See, he’s a sectarian Atheist.
Oh, my bad. Dad is partly sane. Mother is one of those bat-shit crazy loons. Those aren’t my characterizations folks. I’m simply using his view of religious folk in the manner he’s expressed here.
Mak, there’s a couple non-christian/religious on this thread who you should seek to mimic. They carry themselves well, without needing to antagonize or make enemies. I don’t know what has happened to you, but you’ve changed a hell of alot since I started posting here. I hate having to break the news to you, but sometime ago, in your quest to battle fanaticism and zealotry, you became your monster.
I knew someone would drop a duece on this thread. You just had to be that guy. Go see a comedy and cheer up, or something.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Or, wait…You’re not going to challenge me to disprove the existence of an afterlife before claiming I know. Oh how ironic that would be.[/quote]
Sigh. I’m not asking you to prove anything. I don’t know. Admittedly, the highest probable outcome is nothingness. But again, I don’t know.
Is it that hard to comprehend?