ok, we really need to clarify the goal here. Is it a strength goal or a bodybuilding one. As i and others have said earlier, from a strength standpoint the HIITers are blown out of the water. From a BBing standpoint, i still think multi is better, but there is no great supporting facts.
I just got home and I don’t have time to resond now but I will in the am. I have alot to say so in the am bare w/me oh, and propaidiot you are soooooooowrong it is not funny. as always peace to all.
Maybe I should keep my mouth shut but sometimes I have to let you know what a real m-f I am. I obviously have my opinion and I am gotten unbelievable results for my teams. But I need to state that as a Coach of thousands of competitive athletes per season my goal is simple - win. I dont give a crap if my athletes love or hate me, typically they fear the hell I will put them through but my work is all about results. Matter of fact, one of things that no-one has picked up is the mental toughness a training program is responsible for. And that might be the point that doesnt come accross in print and no-one has commented on. If HIT worked better for an team I would use it - I just personally found it didnt do the job I needed. If my boys could achieve greater success with any other program including HIT, I would move to it immediately. Now that might be too scientific but its the damn truth. In faith, Coach Davies
Hetyey
A poor example using sprinters for HIT training. I do not know of any sprint coach or elite sprinter that uses HIT. Canadians who won a bunch of medals are all Soviet trained or ex-eastern block coaches. John Smith who trains Maurice Greene, Ato Bolden etc does not use HIT. The British have had some great 400m sprinters who have trained in the European fashion. In addition to that, you are opening Pandora’s Box of genetics when you compare European athletes to African-American athletes.
I would like to add to Coach Davies comment that such is the case with Poliquin, Pavel, Staley, etc… All train with high volume. Now let’s take a look at Mike Mentzer, who had ZERO success getting in shape without the assistance of anabolic steroids when he competed. Kinda makes you think eh Hetyeh?
Mr Davies, there very successful coaches who use HIT for their athletes. The Washington Redskins have been using HIT for years, and they have won three super bowls in that time. Surely you don’t think that HIT is useless for athletes, do you?
Countless programs using HIT. I dont think it useless at all. I just dont think it develops as well and cant risk my career on failure. In faith, Coach Davies
There are 9 HIT teams in NFL. Many of them train whole body three times/week. They may do 3 sets for a muscle group each workout. That is 9 sets per muscle group per week. 9 sets is at least as many as many traditional trainees do. Many studies have proved that the frequency of training is very important for strength. According those studies it is much better to divide the weekly loading for one muscle group to more sessions (like HITers) than to do all sets for one muscle group in one session (like many traditionalists).
Wait a minute, don’t get the wrong idea Colin. Nobody is saying that training to failure once or per week won’t work, but rather that there are better and more constructive ways to be spending your training time. Coach Davies did not say he thought it was useless, and neither have I. It seems like everyone, including Hetyeh, has abandoned trying to defend Heavy Duty training, characterized by training 3-5 sets once every five days, which of course is a ridiculous volume and will lead nowhere. So let’s stick with analyzing whether or not 3 sessions of HIT training per week is superior to higher volume methods.
I find these types of debates interesting, how so many people find the need to fall into one camp or another. I am not sure why people feel the need to choose “sides” but I can sure as hell tell you why there are sides. As the FBI says, “Follow the money!” Writers and coaches who make a living by writing about and training people have got to do or say something to make possible consumers of their books or services think they have the answer. This frequently includes slamming other training coaches or methods. If they don’t separate themselves from others, people will wonder as to why not use what is already out there or why not keep doing what they are doing. The reality is that exercise science is still in its infancy stages when compared to other sciences. There is little fact out there but a whole hell of alot of theories.
The only thing that seems to be certain when it comes to strength training/bodybuilding is that to make progress you must: 1) Overload and progress; 2) Allow for recovery; and 3) Eat properly. Now many have come and picked one or all of the above truths and expanded or added their own little twist, but from a macro perspective the above are the only truths. Are there high level athletes that train HIT? Yes, University of Michigan, Penn State, Washington Redskins, Tampa Bay Bucs, Cincinnati Bengals (its the field coaches fault they stink!! lol) to name a few. Are there other athletes who train in different manners and are successful? YES. I would sumbit that there are as many different training protocols as there are atheletes; however, all the protcols have the above 3 points in common.
Does HIT work? For me yes. I was a volume trainer for a few years and had little to show, while in 13 months of HIT training I have went from 170 to 210 (6'1") while still fitting into my 33" waist Levis (drug free). (Oddly enough, I have to say that I know little about Heavy Duty or Mentzer. I learned about HIT on the web [ie free!!] and I trained 2-3 times per week depending on aht my body told me to do.) Do I have the perfect physique? No, but I am a work in progress. Like Tim and TC has pointed out, you don't have to have the greatest physique in the world to talk about these things. My opinion is that one needs to find what works best for them. Some people don't have what it takes to work every set to failure, some don't have the time to dedicate 6+ hours a week to the gym. You just have to find what works for you and DO IT.
Just my .02 cents.
ok some of these points are to diff people that responded and I did not write all the names down so bare w/me. the studdies have been done over and over and over again and they ALWAYS show HIT to be ATLEAST as effective.to the guy that wants to compare abs, that proves what? you probably have better abs than me (I am dropping wt. now so I’m sure you do) but you think that multiple sets are the reason and not bodyfat% ? some HIT athletes (though I can not list all 'cause I would be here ALL day) Anthony Munoz, Junior Seau, John Randall, Todd Steussie, Warren Sapp, the Giants(go Giants!), Redskins, Steelers, ect…ect…ect… the studdies done have been done up to 18 months w/ trained and untrained people, w/ over 1000 people used in some studdies , if I told you something about nutrition based on these stats (like talkum powder improves strength) all these people would be running out trying to buy some but because it is about training you guys blow it off. if the mags said 1 set is enough than how could they sell their mags? the point about the sprinters is that athletes are BORN NOT MADE. why are the easternblock athletes good at olympic lifting, GENETICS , where do they live? what is the enviornment, what is the climate, what have these people been doing to survive for the last thousands upon thousands of years? all these factors play into it NOT SOME SECRET TRAINING METHOD. and look if all these systems produce such GREAT results in sports(which is what they were created for, NOT BUILDING MUSCLE) why has the 100meter increased by an average of 0.00512 seconds per year since 1968 giveing an average of 2 INCHES A YEAR? EVERY study shows HIT to be atleast as effective as multiple sets wether the multiples are taken to failure or not whether they perodize or not it never matters. I asked for ANY science behind how some of you train and again I get none. why doesn’t some of the T-mag staff chime in? because there is NO science saying volume is better again NO, NONE, ZIP, NADDA, ZILCHOW, ZERO!!! I get told that I am brainwashed but I ask WHO is brainwashed? take a look at what Matt Brzycki has to say if you want to learn about SCIENCE. this is NOT aimed at all, to most of you I can agree to dissagree but this propidiot guy(who dared me to use my “real” name then when I said hetyey is my “real” name, first name steve, and I asked why he hides behind a fake name he says nothing) likes to call me names w/zreo,zilch,nadda,nothing to back ANY of his claims up, why do some believe THEY ARE SO SPECIAL? if something has been PROVEN over and over and over again why do some believe it does not pertain to them? anyway to almost all peace
one more thing, there has been well over 50 peer reviewd studdies done aren’t any of you suprised that NONE show multiple to be better than single. again ask for someone, anyone to chime in, if they do they will not be able to site studies to prove their point. peace
Wow, that was a completely retarded post Hetyeh. You continue to gloss over the points I make in favor of focussing on the fact that I wish to not give my real name. Why don’t you stop being a hypocrit and first of all admit that you did not in fact gain 20 lbs of muscle and lose 48 lbs of fat in six weeks. After that, site some specific studies (instead of simply saying that there are thousands of studies done on trained and untrained…), and we’ll talk about them individually? Sound fair? I don’t conduct research studies and don’t regularly read them. All I know about them is what I read in the magazines and hear from coaches, so maybe you can fill us in on some specific studies to prove your point. And if you want to compare number of coaches and elite athletes who use HIT methods versus those who don’t, you’re gonna lose. And look, I never said HIT can’t produce results (i definitely argue mentzer’s heavy duty II program useless though). But rather we are arguing which method is better.
Greeings all! Here is what Louie Simmons himself had to say about HIT in an arcticle entitled “Hit or Miss?”
"Many readers may not realize that I am involved in the training of pro-football teams and many college football and basketball teams. For example, the Kansas City Jayhawks and Utah Utes are heavily influenced by our training as it relates to speed strength. Two of the pro- football teams are the Green Bay Packers and the New England Patriots. Not a bad group to be associated with, huh? I also talk to a head strength coach that has been affiliated with a winning tradition in the NFL who tells me, although he is ashamed to admit it, that he has linemen coming into the league that can’t vertical jump 19 inches or squat 300 pounds. He related to me that these players are from “high-intensity training” (H.I.T.) schools and that this type of weight program is making his job next to impossible.
A pro-lineman told me while I was at their camp that when he was placed on the H. I.T. program in college, his team was the top 5th school his senior year. He thought he was strong until the combines. When he got only 12 repetitions with 225 pounds, he was embarrassed. He was picked by a pro-team that utilized our training and that has an excellent strength coach. In 2 years this lineman did 17 reps with 315 pounds. He made a remark that machines and H.I.T. were useless. This got back to his old college team, who immediately banned him for life from their weight room. Gee, what a pity.
At Westside, we thought we would do some research on H.I.T. So Dave Tate and myself looked into this, I must say, misguided method. What is their viewpoint? Where was their research taken from? Why is it loved by some and despised by others?
First let’s look at the concept of intensity. Apparently H.I.T. views it as a feeling, like a pump, a term bodybuilders made popular. Is it a scientific term? No. Is a bodybuilder quick or explosive? No. If you know a converted bodybuilder who powerlifts, he almost always lifts well under what he appears to be able to do. Why? He has trained only the muscle, not the central nervous system. That is why smaller ball players are almost always faster and many times stronger based on percent of bodyweight. Bodybuilders develop no reversal strength or starting or accelerating strength. Any sport coach will tell you that acceleration is paramount in sports.
A. S. Prilepin suggested that to achieve the proper intensity, one should use the rep/set scheme shown in the table, to ensure the greatest development of speed and strength. He discovered that if 7 or more reps were performed at 70%, the bar speed slowed and power decreased. The same holds true when using 80% or 90%; once one goes above the rep range shown, the bar slows, which translates to less power. Doing fewer or more lifts than Prilepin suggests will cause a decrease in training effect.
Number of Reps for Percent Training Percent Reps per set Optimal Total Range
55-65 3-6 24 18-30
70-75 3-6 18 12-24
80-85 2-4 15 10-20
90+ 1-2 7 4-10
Along the same parameters are the findings of Dr. Tamas Ajan and Prof. Lazar Baroga. They describe the zones of intensity as follows: 30 to 50% is low intensity; for speed-oriented sports; 50 to 85% is medium intensity; for force-oriented sports such as weightlifting; 85 to 95% is high intensity, for weightlifting and other sports; 1 00% and above is maximum and over-maximum Intensity, for the development of absolute strength.
Most authors who have studied strength as a physical quality examine it in four forms: absolute, speed, explosive, and strength endurance. The latter, strength endurance is basically all the H.I.T. program can possibly build. Strength endurance is characterized by a combination of great strength and significant endurance. It is needed by athletes who must compete for a prolonged period of time (3 to 4 hours) without diminished work capacity.
Well H.I.T. may increase endurance, but it does not promote great strength; in fact, it eliminates it completely by neglecting the other three elements of strength: absolute, speed, and explosive.
Dave Caster showed me an interesting paper, Strength, Power and Speed in Shot Put Training, by Dr. Poprawski, Director of the Sport High Performance Institute in Toronto and former coach of world shot put champion Edward Sarul. First, Poprawski realized the importance of intensity zones as described by Prilepin and the importance of using one weight percentage per workout. For example, weights of 50 to 75% were used for training speed and power. Much like our training, this training is based on a true max of, let’s say, 500,600, or 700 pounds. Poprawski realized that a shot put always weighs 16 pounds; therefore he found that it was best to use one weight for a particular workout and to focus on increasing bar velocity rather than heavier weight to increase power. What was the key element for success? Speed, speed, and more speed.
Sarul was tested against other superior throwers, and while some could lift more weight, he was far ahead in tests of bar speed during the snatch and squats of 1 and 3 reps. His advantage in speed and the development of power was directly achieved by increasing bar speed, while the others fell behind from lifting too slowly. What does this tell us? Fast is good; slow is second team.
H.I.T. proponents use a lot of machines. This is truly a mistake. No stability can be developed. Most machines work on the peak contraction theory. Let’s look at the pec machine. If you load a pec machine to the max, starting the movement requires a max effort, which is very difficult and dangerous. Yet at the finish, where the most weight can be lifted because of accommodating resistance, machines show their downfall.
More importantly, let’s consider the strength curve. Take the case of two 700-pound deadlifters. One may blast the weight off the floor to near lockout and then fight the last 3 to 4 inches. The second may have difficulty starting the bar off the floor, pick up speed, and lockout easily. What does this illustrate? In the real world of strength these two lifters have quite different strength curves. If these same two lifters were to use a machine, only one would receive any benefit from that machine, because the machine has a predetermined strength curve. That’s a 50% chance the machine won’t work for you. Also, a machine will not build stability. The only good thing about a facility full of machines is that the instructor could be a moron and it won’t make any difference. "
I have a question for Louie about NFL Offensive Lineman from HIT schools (I know it was a quote from a ‘famous’ article…I am being rhetorical). WHAT ABOUT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN??? Over the last 3-5 years a majority of Michigan’s O-Line has been taken in the 1st round of the NFL draft. They sure must have had a bad showing at the combine in order to be drafted so highly!!
Like I said before “Follow the money!” Of course Simmons is going to slam HIT. Why? He tells you in his first paragraph…he sells his services as a coach!!!
Further if HIT is so ineffective for football what about: Redskins, Eagles, Giants, Buccaneers, Penn State, Ravens, Bengals, University of Michigan, and Michigan State.
Like I said before, don’t get all goo goo eyed over some “coach” telling you his way (ie “buy something from me”) is best. The number one motivator is money and that is why most people say and do what they do. Use your head and figure out what works best for you and DO IT. Don’t follow people like Simmons who has such strong evidence of his method’s superiority as saying in essence “One time this [un-named] coach told me…”
For a full response to Mr. Simmons, see cyberpump and do a search for “Hit or Miss”.
Scott
You shouldn’t use follow the money. Arthur JOnes, inventor of Nautilus, came up with the idea of quick, easy workout with his machines, in the late 70’s early 80’s. Sales skyrocketed, memberships doubled at gyms. His son and Kim Woods, of the Bengals, came up with Hammer Strength, the ultimate in HIT equipment. Woods, as the Bengals strength coach started to market his equipment with Icky Woods, Boomer etc. He coupled that with some HIT books that had pictures of bodybuilders doing the machines and they sold like wildfire. Woods had disciples spread throughout the industry and they stuck with their program. So Woods and Jones are doing well financially. So we can follow the money.
So other interesting tips about the NFL. You don’t have to test at the combine. In fact, most Michigan,PSU and Michigan State athletes don’t. The ones that do usually have an agent that got them with another trainer. Some NFL teams use HIT for the time factor and safety factor. An injured player from the weight room will get a strength coach fired. Also, because an NFL career is short, most coaches are not concerned with development. They just want you healthy. Once, you’ve made it they really don’t test much. Scouts and recruiters find players that are already developed. Most people won’t turn down a scholarship from Michigan or Penn State. The atheletes do get bigger from the fantasic training tables at those schools. What players who need development do is hire people in the off season. Go to infinityfitness.com and read about the Bengals working with John Davies. Some people go with Cris Carter or Tom Shaw in Fla. or John Smith in California. The Bengals don’t even have an off season program.
Anyway, if you like HIT, go for it. I do like playing teams that are HIT because we always seem to win.
First, unlike most HIT advocates, I don’t think HIT is the be all end all. I do think that there are some basic truths that need to be adhered to to be successful in training (see my 1st post in this topic).
Second, I know about the Joneses and Woods making money advocating their machines with HIT. I never said to do HIT because no one made money off it. The whole gist of my first post was to have any success you must: 1)overload and progress; 2) eat; and 3) proper rest. These are the only truths. My point was no matter what program you are following, if you adhere to the above three you will make great gains…nothing else has been proven to a scientific fact. My point about “following the money” relates to trainers/coaches who feel the need to attack other methods or coaches, look behind what they say to the main reason…the almighty dollar (this includes HITers as well!!!).
Third, I love HIT....40 lbs in just over a year while still fitting into my 33" waist jeans is great for me, but I am objective enough to know when I stop gaining to switch things up. Also, as a couldn't-hit-a-fastball-baseball-"retiree"-lack-of-coordination-now-softball player, my entire team comments on how much thicker I am as well as how much further I hit the ball this year. So regardless of what anyone says, I am still gaining and performing, so no training changes here!!
Fourth, if teams like PSU and U of M consistently manufactured out weak lineman, NFL teams would stop drafting them so high. I, honestly, do think that comparing methods by way of genetic freaks is a mistake because most of us aren’t genetic freaks. If a coach can show me great things he can do with an “average” guy, it will impress me more than what he can do with a genetically gifted guy.
Fifth, you like to play teams that train HIT because you always seem to win, huh? First, strength is only one factor in determining on the field performance. Coaching (in team sports), skill, natural ability all play an important part as well. Do you have enough “T” to say which team you play for, so we can substantiate your claims or are you another Louie “one time this [un-named] guy told me” Simmons? (I am new here maybe others know who you are)
I said it before and I will say it again. Find what works for YOU. Screw what everyone else says, and do what is best for YOU.
Peace, Love and Rock n’ Roll!!
PS: the Bengals don’t have an off season training program just like they don’t have year round scouting (like every other NFL team) because the owner is a jack ass!! That is why I refuse to adopt them now that I have moved to Cinci. 
I just had to make my last post - Louie Simmons is the best thing that happened to the Strength coaching business in this country. Too bad you dont realize it.
Scott
I coach high school football in the Chicago area. Korfist is my real name. We have a very successful program with many Division 1 players. I agree with the fact that taking average athletes and making them exceptional is the key. Louie Simmons has a gym full of them. There is nothing special athleticly about Amy Weisberger, but she’s a world champion. Personally, I’m a Renegade believer and so are my athletes. I tried HIT 4 years ago and got nothing. Maybe its a great program for softball. We play football and run track. We have 5 kids that run a 4.5 or better and not to sound racist but they are all white. I have a 300 lb lineman that runs 5.1. We are one of the few teams in the state to qualify all their sprint relay teams, every year. Those are pictures of my athletes in the Davies article. They snatch over 200 lbs and do Glute hams and one legged squats. That’s progress. I’m glad you found your niche with HIT. Keep on going. It did nothing for me. As for the Mich/PSU lineman, most never seem to pan out. Even Curtis Enis or Anthony Carter never seemed to make it.From combine results last year 5 of the 10 people from your 3 HIT schools did not bench. Only Anthony Thomas ran an impressive 40. One person did 225 9 times another did it 10. There was one impressive bencher from Michigan who did it 31 times. But overall, the lineman’s results were average to poor. I’m not arguing against HIT but just offering results from a football group where everyone is genetically gifted. I agree with your truths. By the way, speed wins football games.
HIT doesn’t work. Been there tried it to a tee. Westside on the other hand did.