Any Church Goers?

Off Topic
161

[quote]Multiple Moods wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]Multiple Moods wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Yes, i pray at the alter of the beast. The fallen one. The one wrongfully imprisoned.[/quote]

It’s too bad you’re bullshitting. This would be an interesting conversation.[/quote]

I don’t think there’s a person on this planet with the stones to give themselves over to ‘the beast’ and truly believe they’ve traded something. To believe in God is to believe in the Devil and vice versa.
[/quote]

What are you trying to say here?Of course you can believe in the higher power-God/Creator/Universal consciousness etc. without believing in “the Devil”.

I find it hard to think a being with the knowledge and power to create at least one universe(who knows maybe there is many more) so vast and intricately engineered would allow another being like the Christian Devil to exist.
[/quote]

On a thread with “church” in the title, it should be assumed that any talk of ‘God’ is in the Biblical sense unless otherwise stated. This isn’t about the existence of Satan.

To clarify: people who believe in the Biblical God believe in the Devil and those who truly believe in Satan would not give themselves over to him, unless they’re insane (e.g. serial killers). I’m talking about Devil-worshippers specifically, as Satanists don’t necessarily worship Satan- some regard themselves as their own god and live for earthly pleasures.[/quote]

Ok here is somehting I thought about the other day while reading some of Revelations.For those who believe in the biblical versions of God and the Devil(assuming Christians who believe in both also believe Revelations)-
It is prophesised in Revelation that god and the lamb bring about the destruction of the beast/serpent/devil and his followers.As god is omnipitent,omnipresent and omniknowledgeable in past,present and future according to the bible this is how it will happen-God and the Lamb victorious over evil.Absolutely no two ways about it.

Now as the Devil is supposedly already operating in this world for a number of millenia after he was cast out of the heavens and given that he has a vast array of power/influence(aswell as minions with similar power and human follwers who know the bible)in both physical and spiritual realms-would it not be fair to assume he has knowledge of this unchangeable prophecy?

Begging the question why stand against a being who is capable of literally anything and ending the existence of such malevolent beings with a thought?

It does not make any sense whatsoever.Especially given that the Devil has first hand knowledge and experience of God from his previous time in the spiritual realm,thus must know the full extent of the creators unlimited power.Why fight a fight that you cannot even begin to have the faintest glimmer of hope of winning?
The book of revelation either makes out that God is not omnipotent(thus giving the Devil hope of victory and contardicting the bibles earlioer claims of an omnipotent god) or it is complete bunkum.
Thoughts?[/quote]

Without commenting on the veracity of the Bible, and taking all the events as gospel (see what I did there?), if God is omnipotent then he is the architect of his own prophecy, meaning that he allowed Satan to exist to fulfil a purpose (that purpose being to test man). The casting out of Satan was not something he himself had any control over, so his choice, if he is aware of the prophecy’s end, is to either lie down knowing his defeat is assured, or continue on until the prophecy is fulfilled.

The very nature of the Devil makes him believe that he can undermine God, so he may very well also believe that he can prove the prophecy false. Long story short, if God is all-knowing then the prophecy’s predicted end is assured, whereas ‘The Beast’ opposes God’s omnipotence (he would not have fallen otherwise) and by extension, the prophecy. It is God’s prophecy, therefore a false one in Satan’s eyes.

That’s my unbiased take on it.

162

[quote]simpstr1 wrote:

[quote]Multiple Moods wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Yes, i pray at the alter of the beast. The fallen one. The one wrongfully imprisoned.[/quote]

It’s too bad you’re bullshitting. This would be an interesting conversation.[/quote]

I don’t think there’s a person on this planet with the stones to give themselves over to ‘the beast’ and truly believe they’ve traded something. To believe in God is to believe in the Devil and vice versa.
[/quote]

What are you trying to say here?Of course you can believe in the higher power-God/Creator/Universal consciousness etc. without believing in “the Devil”.

I find it hard to think a being with the knowledge and power to create at least one universe(who knows maybe there is many more) so vast and intricately engineered would allow another being like the Christian Devil to exist.
[/quote]

I do believe that there is a darker force out there or rather in us.[/quote]

You mean human nature?

163

[quote]biglifter wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
^ and Satan at best has about 5000 years of working with humans.[/quote]

Currently, he works with me in the IT field. I’m sure of it.
[/quote]

I was married to his daughter for 3 years!!!

164

[quote]biglifter wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
^ and Satan at best has about 5000 years of working with humans.[/quote]

Currently, he works with me in the IT field. I’m sure of it.
[/quote]

He’s in charge of the MS SQL Server development, that I am sure of…

“Hey, I know, let’s take it and make it worse! Then we’ll add some new features and tell everybody that makes it better and they will believe us!” Yup, Satanic.

165

[quote]Edgy wrote:

[quote]biglifter wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
^ and Satan at best has about 5000 years of working with humans.[/quote]

Currently, he works with me in the IT field. I’m sure of it.
[/quote]

I was married to his daughter for 3 years!!![/quote]

LOL! I am sorry you had to go through that. Marriage hell is a special kind.

166

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
I believe it was Martin Luther who said something very similar?
[/quote]

I don’t know what Martin Luther said.

I do know Luther wrote “On Jews and Their Lies,” which was the 12-Step blueprint for Hitler’s “solution” for my people, setting out the labor camps, imprisonment, etc, and was the theological basis upon which the Nazis justified their actions.

So, not a fan.

167

[quote]Soulja874 wrote:

[quote]simpstr1 wrote:

[quote]Multiple Moods wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Yes, i pray at the alter of the beast. The fallen one. The one wrongfully imprisoned.[/quote]

It’s too bad you’re bullshitting. This would be an interesting conversation.[/quote]

I don’t think there’s a person on this planet with the stones to give themselves over to ‘the beast’ and truly believe they’ve traded something. To believe in God is to believe in the Devil and vice versa.
[/quote]

What are you trying to say here?Of course you can believe in the higher power-God/Creator/Universal consciousness etc. without believing in “the Devil”.

I find it hard to think a being with the knowledge and power to create at least one universe(who knows maybe there is many more) so vast and intricately engineered would allow another being like the Christian Devil to exist.
[/quote]

I do believe that there is a darker force out there or rather in us.[/quote]

You mean human nature?
[/quote]

No such thing, or rather we are all raised within some culture. Good & evil are cultural.

168

[quote]Edgy wrote:
so, if Judaism does not value the bible, but an enlightened Jew does, how can the enlightened Jew be following the precepts of his religion?

srsly, I am not trying to be argumentative, just curious.[/quote]

There are some words used that don’t mean the same thing, depending on who you talk to.

Notably, Jewish people will say they use the “Bible” – which does not include the Christian Scriptures or so-called “New Testament.”

I’ll give you the key terms:

Jewish people revere as scripture the “Tanakh” — this means, the “Torah,”(the first 5 books of the Bible — you know, Genesis, et al) The “Nev’Im” and the “Kethuvim” — (excepting Karaite Jews who only accet the Torah). Sometimes the “Tanakh” is called the “Torah”

Orthodox Jewish people also accept the “Talmud” or oral law, which is like the larger book which explains the Tanakh, as given to Moshe at the same time, but not written. Reform may or may not accept the Talmud.

Christians accept the entire Tanakh as true and correct, and generally accept the Talmud, if they know about it.

Jewish people reject the “New Testament,” except to acknowledge that the morality contained therein is largely correct statements of the Hillel school of thought.

Christians and Jewish people reject the koran.

Muslims believe the koran and say they acknowledge Tanakh and the New Testament, but believe them to be corrupted by evil Jewish folk, so effectively disregard them.

169

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
so, if Judaism does not value the bible, but an enlightened Jew does, how can the enlightened Jew be following the precepts of his religion?

srsly, I am not trying to be argumentative, just curious.[/quote]

There are some words used that don’t mean the same thing, depending on who you talk to.

Notably, Jewish people will say they use the “Bible” – which does not include the Christian Scriptures or so-called “New Testament.”

I’ll give you the key terms:

Jewish people revere as scripture the “Tanakh” — this means, the “Torah,”(the first 5 books of the Bible — you know, Genesis, et al) The “Nev’Im” and the “Kethuvim” — (excepting Karaite Jews who only accet the Torah). Sometimes the “Tanakh” is called the “Torah”

Orthodox Jewish people also accept the “Talmud” or oral law, which is like the larger book which explains the Tanakh, as given to Moshe at the same time, but not written. Reform may or may not accept the Talmud.

Christians accept the entire Tanakh as true and correct, and generally accept the Talmud, if they know about it.

Jewish people reject the “New Testament,” except to acknowledge that the morality contained therein is largely correct statements of the Hillel school of thought.

Christians and Jewish people reject the koran.

Muslims believe the koran and say they acknowledge Tanakh and the New Testament, but believe them to be corrupted by evil Jewish folk, so effectively disregard them.[/quote]

thanks Jewwie, this is informative.

if I were to talk to you about the Roman or Nordic Gods, would you consider me crazy and dismiss my discussions as invalid? or is there a place for the Pagan gods in this discussion?

170

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:

[quote] Jewbacca wrote

There are obvious theological differences, but the evangelical Christians are great friends to my people and their love of G-d and desire to obey Him is very real and wonderful.

Indeed, some of the best people I’ve met. [/quote]

So why is it that you don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah? And if it’s not him, then who?

Serious question.

CS[/quote]

One can acknowledge sound moral teachings without accepting confuddled theology.

Google “Jewish answers to Christian evangelists” for the reasons. Daniel 11 would be your starting point. I don’t particularly want to dump all over Christianity on this thread. I don’t think that is constructive dialog.

171

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]biglifter wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
^ and Satan at best has about 5000 years of working with humans.[/quote]

Currently, he works with me in the IT field. I’m sure of it.
[/quote]

He’s in charge of the MS SQL Server development, that I am sure of…
[/quote]

I fear this may be true. For the discovery of the ‘Beast’ in 70-80’s lyrics played backwards has surely influenced those who would later decide to call it, fucking, diwor.

But to more important matters. Given Roguies serious admission to devil worship, should I be worried? Any Stern effigies being burned on your black altar RV?

Should I be phoning Peter Fonda and asking for Winnebago road trip tips?

Thread just got fucking serious. =/

172

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:
I think that reading the bible and interpreting it word for word is not a very smart idea.
[/quote]

On this I agree. The Tanakh is but half of the story. Christians tend to read it without the Talmud, which is like reading the index of a book without reading the book. This results in much confusion.

[quote]

I HIGHLY doubt that the original readings are the same as what you would read today, every person that has translated/re-written it has without a doubt added their own “flavour”. The bible should be used as a backbone of wisdom not a word for word “recipe” to guide you. There is a lot of things you can learn just by focusing on how a specific reading can be applicable/not applicable to make you a better person overall.[/quote]

Actually, no. The process of copying Torah/Tanakh scrolls is very precise, and one letter change results in the entire page being destroyed. This has been the case for 3500+ years.

In fact, multuple ancient copies of various books of the Tanakh have been uncovered (e.g., the Dead Sea Scrolls) and it is clear that there has been little or no alteration in the documents over the millenia.

173

[quote]imhungry wrote:
Can the Ying exist without the Yang?[/quote]

Yes, in that the “devil” was created.

He’s “just” an angel with a very unpleasant job. Perhaps overzealous and certainly disagreeable.

But performing the tasks for which he was created.

174

There is a group of theologists, mainly Jewish I believe, that have been working to try and get back to the original texts. They spent something like 30 or 50 years and just finished Genesis.

And they agree with ID that Phil Collins sucks.

175

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
There is a group of theologists, mainly Jewish I believe, that have been working to try and get back to the original texts. They spent something like 30 or 50 years and just finished Genesis.

And they agree with ID that Phil Collins sucks.[/quote]

I fucking LOL at that one!

freaking Hilar~

you’re awesome, Tx~

176

[quote]Edgy wrote:
if I were to talk to you about the Roman or Nordic Gods, would you consider me crazy and dismiss my discussions as invalid? or is there a place for the Pagan gods in this discussion?
[/quote]

Well, I wouldn’t talk to you about it, in that I have no care or concern for false gods, and a tenant of my religion is to not learn about false gods.

That said, Jewish people certainly believe the true G-d revealed Himself to non-Jewish people.

Indeed, there are a number of non-Jewish prophets and great men in the Tanakh.

The first one that comes to mind is “Job,” whom G-d considered among the finest men on Earth, and was most likely not Jewish.

177

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
if I were to talk to you about the Roman or Nordic Gods, would you consider me crazy and dismiss my discussions as invalid? or is there a place for the Pagan gods in this discussion?
[/quote]

Well, I wouldn’t talk to you about it, in that I have no care or concern for false gods, and a tenant of my religion is to not learn about false gods.

That said, Jewish people certainly believe the true G-d revealed Himself to non-Jewish people.

Indeed, there are a number of non-Jewish prophets and great men in the Tanakh.

The first one that comes to mind is “Job,” whom G-d considered among the finest men on Earth, and was most likely not Jewish.[/quote]

I understand that you would be reticent about learning about ‘false gods’, and mean no disrespect, but do you think that it is interesting that, once dissected, all religions seem to have the same foundation? in that:

  1. there is a creator
  2. there are lessons to help understand behavior and environment
  3. there are heros and dregs, and both are described for lessons on growing
  4. there is consequences to our actions on earth, and a final authority.

Seems to me that it is all the same.

in regards to organized religions, the bible does state that Christians should hang out with other Christians, and to be a ‘light unto the world’ - however it does not state that one should go to church and especially it was repulsed by organized religion of the time.

(forgive me, I have no basis on the Jewish belief regarding this)

In my feeble minded attempt at understanding this, It makes me believe that the organized religions were, and are, set up as organizations that are self promoting. and, although good is sometimes the result of this membership, should there be no option for increase (making money) then there would be no churches.

Jewwie, I understand that you live in Israel. if you were born in Saudi Arabia, do you think your beliefs would differ than your beliefs now? if so, how does that affect you spiritually?

178

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
There is a group of theologists, mainly Jewish I believe, that have been working to try and get back to the original texts. They spent something like 30 or 50 years and just finished Genesis.

And they agree with ID that Phil Collins sucks.[/quote]

LMFAO!

179

[quote]simpstr1 wrote:
…any church goers in here? anybody belief in a higher power?[/quote]

Hell no. No one under the age of 25-30 goes to church in Ireland. A tiny % of that age group are any way religious.
Found out about the tooth fairy, santa & the easter bunny when I was around 6. Stopped the Religion/god stuff when I was around 13/14.

180

[quote]supa power wrote:

[quote]simpstr1 wrote:
…any church goers in here? anybody belief in a higher power?[/quote]

Hell no. No one under the age of 25-30 goes to church in Ireland. A tiny % of that age group are any way religious.
Found out about the tooth fairy, santa & the easter bunny when I was around 6. Stopped the Religion/god stuff when I was around 13/14. [/quote]

Do people start going around a certain age, or do you suspect those numbers will be moved up to 30-35 in 5 years?