Yes, i pray at the alter of the beast. The fallen one. The one wrongfully imprisoned.
[quote]So What wrote:
I only believe in what I experience. Part of this is of course inevitably religious culture around me, but no I don’t believe in god.
I don’t go around trying to change people and I expect others to do the same. I don’t think people should be going around doing things “in the name of god”. Some people live like that, fuck. Make that groups of people and we are a step away from terrorism.
Bottom line, I see religion more as a culture and a way of not forgetting your childhood values rather than something pure. It’s something you feel, and you fuck up when you try and define it.
Make sense?[/quote]
It does make sense you feel this way because the media and modern culture belittle and openly lie about Judeo-Christian ethics, behavior, and results. The nedia focuses solely on the negative. They miss no opportunity to expand and expound when religious people fall short or do evil.
And it is very unfortunate that the nosiest of the “religious folk” are usually the worst of the lot. Just imagine what they would be like without G-d!
The truth is, however, most effective charity and work done in the USA is done by professing Christians and Jewish people, and they do wonderful things for their communities and each other.
In short, it makes perfect sense that you believe as you do.
But I will say that you have been lied to.
tikkun olam
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
The truth is, however, most effective charity and work done in the USA is done by professing Christians and Jewish people, and they do wonderful things for their communities and each other.
[/quote]
And all of this can be achieved in the secular world.
Of course most charity done in the US is done by believers considering 80%+ of Americans are believers.
Christians–especially conservative Christians–tend to be anti-social welfare, whereas a lot of atheists are more socially liberal. So, Christians (who lean conservative) go more for private charity, but fight to deny people things like unemployment benefits, low cost or free medical services, homeless shelters, etc. I’ve seen letters to the editor where they actually argue that if the government forces them to fund these things through tax deductions, then it’s not really “charity.”
In my view, this is doing it the hard way–because society is best suited to see to its own social needs, and leaving hungry, medically needy or desperate people to the mercy of–well, “mercy,” is not acceptable. They should be guaranteed services, not simply at the mercy of whatever someone does (or does not) wish to give.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
The truth is, however, most effective charity and work done in the USA is done by professing Christians and Jewish people, and they do wonderful things for their communities and each other.
[/quote]
And all of this can be achieved in the secular world.
[/quote]
But it’s not. Secularists have the lowest rate of giving to charity and lowest rate of volunteering for charity around the world. Even when you exclude giving to religious charities, religious people out-give and out-volunteer secular people by a wide margin.
Taxing other people to do your charitable duty doesn’t cut it.
Regarding the rest of your post, private charaties (especially religious ones) are far more effective with the dollars they receive than the gubmint solutions you propose. Typically 80% of a private charity incoming money goes directly to goods and services to those in need, while it’s like 30% from gubmint run black holes.*
- I actually know this from sitting in a United Way board meeting today, but it’s easily available info.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Judeo-Christian ethics, behavior, and results. [/quote]
Jewwie,
can I ask a question? obviously you are of the Jewish faith, but you mentioned Judeo-Christian.
do you believe that Judaism and Christianity is interchangeable, and what is your position on Jesus being the Messiah?
is it an ingrained belief system, or just a friendly relationship with blurred lines of delineation?
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]So What wrote:
I only believe in what I experience. Part of this is of course inevitably religious culture around me, but no I don’t believe in god.
I don’t go around trying to change people and I expect others to do the same. I don’t think people should be going around doing things “in the name of god”. Some people live like that, fuck. Make that groups of people and we are a step away from terrorism.
Bottom line, I see religion more as a culture and a way of not forgetting your childhood values rather than something pure. It’s something you feel, and you fuck up when you try and define it.
Make sense?[/quote]
It does make sense you feel this way because the media and modern culture belittle and openly lie about Judeo-Christian ethics, behavior, and results. The nedia focuses solely on the negative. They miss no opportunity to expand and expound when religious people fall short or do evil.
And it is very unfortunate that the nosiest of the “religious folk” are usually the worst of the lot. Just imagine what they would be like without G-d!
The truth is, however, most effective charity and work done in the USA is done by professing Christians and Jewish people, and they do wonderful things for their communities and each other.
In short, it makes perfect sense that you believe as you do.
But I will say that you have been lied to.
tikkun olam[/quote]
‘Terrorism’ made you think of the media. This is an extreme example of people expressing their frustrations upon others under the mask of religion. >Nothing to do with believers being bad-or any other type of people, though like with anything they will get labeled.
Based on your post you will probably disagree here, but I don’t think believing in god should have anything to do directly with one’s actions; that being terrorism, charity work, w/e. But this is where culture/customs come in and cloud things.
I do my own thing and try to respect others.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
The truth is, however, most effective charity and work done in the USA is done by professing Christians and Jewish people, and they do wonderful things for their communities and each other.
[/quote]
And all of this can be achieved in the secular world.
[/quote]
But it’s not. Secularists have the lowest rate of giving to charity and lowest rate of volunteering for charity around the world. Even when you exclude giving to religious charities, religious people out-give and out-volunteer secular people by a wide margin.
Taxing other people to do your charitable duty doesn’t cut it.
Regarding the rest of your post, private charaties (especially religious ones) are far more effective with the dollars they receive than the gubmint solutions you propose. Typically 80% of a private charity incoming money goes directly to goods and services to those in need, while it’s like 30% from gubmint run black holes.*
- I actually know this from sitting in a United Way board meeting today, but it’s easily available info.[/quote]
I think the main reason is religious people are much better at mobilizing large groups and there really aren’t atheist communities as there is a stigma attached with that label. It’s starting to change of course, and The number of secular charities is growing.
my original point was that it’s misleading to say “most effective charity and work done in the USA is done by professing Christians and Jewish people” when people on the left would fight for more government services provided through taxation.
The government vs charity point is arguable. I’ve read of corrupt charities where 80% gets absorbed by the charity itself and only 20% actually goes to the cause.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
The truth is, however, most effective charity and work done in the USA is done by professing Christians and Jewish people, and they do wonderful things for their communities and each other.
[/quote]
And all of this can be achieved in the secular world.
Of course most charity done in the US is done by believers considering 80%+ of Americans are believers.
Christians–especially conservative Christians–tend to be anti-social welfare, whereas a lot of atheists are more socially liberal. So, Christians (who lean conservative) go more for private charity, but fight to deny people things like unemployment benefits, low cost or free medical services, homeless shelters, etc. I’ve seen letters to the editor where they actually argue that if the government forces them to fund these things through tax deductions, then it’s not really “charity.”
In my view, this is doing it the hard way–because society is best suited to see to its own social needs, and leaving hungry, medically needy or desperate people to the mercy of–well, “mercy,” is not acceptable. They should be guaranteed services, not simply at the mercy of whatever someone does (or does not) wish to give.[/quote]
If the government did all the charity work for them then what else can they threaten the general public with when they don’t get their way?
http://news.change.org/stories/homeless-held-hostage-by-catholic-church-in-dc-fight-for-gay-marriage
Yes I know that is not the real reason. A more logical reason would be to create a better public image to recruit members and to recruit the very ones they are assisting with in the charity work.
[quote]Edgy wrote:
Can I ask a question? obviously you are of the Jewish faith, but you mentioned Judeo-Christian.
[/quote]
I use “Judeo-Christian” because that is what the USA is. The morality of Christians, as I understand it, is very similar to “Hillel” Judaism.
Hillel, not Yeshua, developed the “Golden Rule: that which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.”
No. Briefly, Judaism does not seek converts (although you are certainly free to convert, if you desire), but we are to be priests to the world. Christians (and later muslims) have been very hard on my people, starting with the destruction of the Temple and filled with pogroms and murders every century that routinely bring us to the point of extinction. To quote a famous Israeli, “2,000 years of Christian love have made us a cautious people.”
That said, the Jewish thought on Christianity is best summarized by Maimondies:
Maimonides was aware as well that Judaism and Christianity shared a common divine Scripture and morality, and, while disagreeing regarding the validity of the Nazarine’s claims, the result has been a wide-spread dissemination and the Torah and acceptance (and understanding) of a coming Mosiach. This is viewed as all part of G-d’s plan to bring us all to Him.
A Reform or Conservative Jewish person would stop there; an Orthodox would encourage the gentile to become a Noahdite.
The Jewish and Christian viewpoint on the nature of the Mosiach are rather different and beyond a simple post here. But again quoting the RamBam, referring to Yeshua, he wrote:
“Even Jesus the Nazarene who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed by the court, was already prophesied by Daniel. So that it was said, â??And the members of the outlaws of your nation would be carried to make a (prophetic) vision stand. And they stumbledâ?? (Daniel 11.14). Because, is there a greater stumbling-block than this one? So that all of the prophets spoke that the Messiah redeems Israel, and saves them, and gathers their banished ones, and strengthens their commandments. And this one caused (nations) to destroy Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them, and to exchange the Torah, and to make the majority of the world err to serve a divinity besides G-d.”
Me? I focus on common ground. We do both agree the Mosiach is coming.
I suppose we’ll just have to ask him if this was his first or second visit.
Jewwie - thank you for the in-depth and informative answer.
here is what I got from it -
Judaism - free to convert if you like
Christianity - force conversions to the point of extinction
Judaism - same god as Christianity
Christianty - same god as Judaism
Christianity - Jesus was the messiah, and all salvation must go through him
Judaism - Jesus was a convict, and has some validity, but the true messiah will come later
again, I appreciate the discussion, and mean not to upset, just curious.
it also sounds like there are different sects in Judaism, like there are in Christianity that have the same underlying beliefs, but have different ways of interpreting the texts.
the comments about ‘to extinction’ was mentioned as a humorous comment, but I believe that there is more malice intended than actually came across.
another question, if you dont mind?
how is it that the Muslims follow the teaching of the same God as Christians and Jews, but do not get the familial recognition from either religion?
[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Yes, i pray at the alter of the beast. The fallen one. The one wrongfully imprisoned.[/quote]
Tell me more. Are you alone in your praying to this beast?
Are you the beast?
[quote]Edgy wrote:
How is it that the Muslims follow the teaching of the same God as Christians and Jews, but do not get the familial recognition from either religion?[/quote]
Well, I disagree that “Muslims follow the teaching of the same God as Christians and Jews.”
Unlike Christians who accept the Torah as true (if incomplete), the Mohammedans claim the Torah (and the Christian Bible) were corrupted by evil Jews, so that only the only book that can be trusted is the koran – and its later passages abrogate its earlier passages, since it conflits within itself.
Again, I defer to the Rambam who lived among muslims:
"Maimonides referred to Muhammad as a false prophet and an insane man. In his Epistle to Yemen he wrote “After [Jesus] arose the Madman who emulated his precursor [Jesus], since he paved the way for him. But he added the further objective of procuring rule and submission [talb al-mulk; pursuit of sovereignty] and he invented what is well known [the religion Islam].”
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Marzouk wrote:
Every Rabbi is rich as fuck and deals jewels on the side.
[/quote]
This is true. We also control the world banking system, send sharks to Eqypt to eat tourists, and have spy vultures.[/quote]
Don’t forget poisoned neck ties, and dirty jew mineral water.
Even though your a jew and i’m a bit egyptian, we do share the same view on Egypt’s moronic anti-Semitic propaganda.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
How is it that the Muslims follow the teaching of the same God as Christians and Jews, but do not get the familial recognition from either religion?[/quote]
Well, I disagree that “Muslims follow the teaching of the same God as Christians and Jews.”
Unlike Christians who accept the Torah as true (if incomplete), the Mohammedans claim the Torah (and the Christian Bible) were corrupted by evil Jews, so that only the only book that can be trusted is the koran – and its later passages abrogate its earlier passages, since it conflits within itself.
Again, I defer to the Rambam who lived among muslims:
"Maimonides referred to Muhammad as a false prophet and an insane man. In his Epistle to Yemen he wrote “After [Jesus] arose the Madman who emulated his precursor [Jesus], since he paved the way for him. But he added the further objective of procuring rule and submission [talb al-mulk; pursuit of sovereignty] and he invented what is well known [the religion Islam].”[/quote]
^ I believe it was Martin Luther who said something very similar?
[quote]Marzouk wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]Marzouk wrote:
A mosque, now thats where you wana go![/quote]
Been there.
I’ve had a few running small arms fights in mosques to pull out the human shields (generally kids and women) the Hajis were hiding behind before the Zoomies in their F-15s dropped the 1000lbers on everyone.
The secondary explosions from all the explosives the “worshippers” had in the mosque basements were impressive.
Nothings says you worship the God of Love and Peace like hiding behind women and children while you make IEDs in the basement of your mosque!
BTW: If they had those wooden pews the Protestants use, they really could have gone Alamo on us; rugs don’t stop bullets very well.[/quote]
Cool story bro,
i forgot every mosque on the planet is filled with bearded terrorists, just like every priest fucks boys, and every Rabbi is rich as fuck and deals jewels on the side.
[/quote]yeah basically.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
How is it that the Muslims follow the teaching of the same God as Christians and Jews, but do not get the familial recognition from either religion?[/quote]
Well, I disagree that “Muslims follow the teaching of the same God as Christians and Jews.”
Unlike Christians who accept the Torah as true (if incomplete), the Mohammedans claim the Torah (and the Christian Bible) were corrupted by evil Jews, so that only the only book that can be trusted is the koran – and its later passages abrogate its earlier passages, since it conflits within itself.
Again, I defer to the Rambam who lived among muslims:
"Maimonides referred to Muhammad as a false prophet and an insane man. In his Epistle to Yemen he wrote “After [Jesus] arose the Madman who emulated his precursor [Jesus], since he paved the way for him. But he added the further objective of procuring rule and submission [talb al-mulk; pursuit of sovereignty] and he invented what is well known [the religion Islam].”[/quote]
Thanks, I did not know that they commented that the Jews and Christians corrupted the bibles.
although I did say ‘teachings of the same god’ I did mean that it was the same god that ya’ll’re praying to.
is this a wrong statement?
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
How is it that the Muslims follow the teaching of the same God as Christians and Jews, but do not get the familial recognition from either religion?[/quote]
Well, I disagree that “Muslims follow the teaching of the same God as Christians and Jews.”
Unlike Christians who accept the Torah as true (if incomplete), the Mohammedans claim the Torah (and the Christian Bible) were corrupted by evil Jews, so that only the only book that can be trusted is the koran – and its later passages abrogate its earlier passages, since it conflits within itself.
Again, I defer to the Rambam who lived among muslims:
"Maimonides referred to Muhammad as a false prophet and an insane man. In his Epistle to Yemen he wrote “After [Jesus] arose the Madman who emulated his precursor [Jesus], since he paved the way for him. But he added the further objective of procuring rule and submission [talb al-mulk; pursuit of sovereignty] and he invented what is well known [the religion Islam].”[/quote]
Thanks, I did not know that they commented that the Jews and Christians corrupted the bibles.
although I did say ‘teachings of the same god’ I did mean that it was the same god that ya’ll’re praying to.
is this a wrong statement?
[/quote]
If you ask a Muslim, they would [probably] tell you it is the same god.
If you ask a Jew or Christian, they might possibly tell you otherwise.
[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
If you ask a Muslim, they would [probably] tell you it is the same god.
If you ask a Jew or Christian, they might possibly tell you otherwise.
[/quote]
so, if it is the same god, how can there be different answers?
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]simpstr1 wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]simpstr1 wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
Simpstr - I am not trying to be an ass…
but havent you stated in these threads that you love to have out-of-wedlock sex?
how does this coincide with a relationship to Christ?
srsly - I am not trying to judge, just curious as to how everybody can justify being a little sinful.[/quote]
I did and do. I’m a work in progress. I don’t pretend to be perfect in anyway shape or form. [/quote]
thanks for not taking offense to that question, Simp - [/quote]
YW! I’m far from where I need to be for even further from where I was.[/quote]
As are we all who walk with Christ. We can’t NOT be sinners. That’s where the gift of grace comes in. Go to Him truly repentant each time we falter, and we’re covered. [/quote]
but to sin, and to know that you are sinning, and repent. yet do the same sin again…
is that part of grace? or is that an intent to sin?
and isnt an intent to sin the same as sinning?
[/quote]
You could look in the bible and find out. According to it, Jesus’ sole purpose was to live perfectly, die and rise again so innate sinners can let him live inside their hearts (omnipresence?) and be whole in the eyes of God again.
The forgiving of sin is the Christian religion, not human perfection. It’s all laid out handily in a very famous book to be understood, even if not believed.
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
If you ask a Muslim, they would [probably] tell you it is the same god.
If you ask a Jew or Christian, they might possibly tell you otherwise.
[/quote]
so, if it is the same god, how can there be different answers?[/quote]
It’s quite simple really.
Muslims are taught from the time they are children that it is the same god. It’s in the Quran.
Jews/Christians do not value the Quran in any way as Jewbacca has stated previously.