At the end of the day, there is a ratio. Always focus on free testosterone. That’s it. We let the body handle the rest in in regards to DHT and estrogen. The body will ensure the rest is kept in a healthy ratio. I know this simple explanation doesn’t work in your head because you feel like everything needs to be complicated, but it’s not. It is really that simple.
Correct and everyone has their own range they respond best, everyone has their own optimal range for estrogen and that isn’t always on the higher end.
Do you even understand your own position? It’s as if I said estrogen is bad for you (which I didn’t) triggering an automatic pre programmed response.
The body doesn’t always keep a healthy ratio, or there wouldn’t be men having trouble and there would be no need for forums such as T-Nation. If the body would do what it’s supposed to do we wouldn’t have disease.
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OP, have you considered that you are having serotonin issues? I am ignoring the the E2 pissing match because there’s a good chance that E2 is not your problem here.
I am NOT saying that E2 cannot be a problem or that there is no upward limit, and I do have a study about it, but I don’t see much point in the stupid argument going on in this thread.
Could you share the study? I bet my first born that it’s an observational study that states one thing was associated with someone else. Ther are NO intervational studies which demonstrate harm when it is given. If you have one of these, I’d love to see it.
@systemlord we would almost need to discuss this by phone. I see exactly the way you are looking at this, just as I did, and nothing I can type here will change it. It’s fine. You can do it your way 
I’m still waiting for one of you to specify what you mean by ‘high E2’ and what evidence based literature you have that states that it causes harm.
I ask this question every time I visit this site yet none of you can provide a single study that demonstrates that it causes harm.
You are making the claim that it causes harm. We have not seen any evidence of this. So demonstrate your claim or admit that you may be wrong, because I have thousands now that have improved by getting off their AI and none of the docs that I deal with even measure E2 anymore.
Where is your evidence?
You keep asking for studies, there are no long term studies men on TRT with higher than normal estrogen.
So can you explain what your reasoning is as to why you feel the need to block it? This is the part I don’t get. If you fully understood the purpose of estradiol in the body, blocking it by even the most miniscule amount is something you wouldn’t dream doing. I’m actually trying to find ways to raise mine more as I do not aromatize sufficiently to attain the levels I’m looking for.
This is one.
I have another one somewhere that I can’t locate atm, thanks Windows update for that restart. Note that the current trend is toward a balance of ratios, which makes more sense, and not an absolute limit number. I;m not on the “E2 doesn’t matter” bandwagon, but I have always leaned towards the idea that if there is too low, there can be too high and ratios are probably the key. We clearly need both, but there has to be a limit.
This is an observational study of baseline men. These are useless studies. We could have a chat at one point and I can explain to you why. In fact, I will do a podcast about this very subject within a couple of weeks and I will send you guys the link so that you can watch it for yourself. the problem here is that every time they gave testosterone or raised their estrogen the patients improved. Every single time. Without fail.
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Brother there aren’t two different ways when you realize the truth. I would be more than happy to believe estrogen needs to be controlled but there is zero literature supporting this.
Think about it. We have hundreds of men who do not control estrogen and not one has issues. Not one complains “oh my god I stopped controlling estrogen and now I have issues and gyno and blah blah”. It’s the opposite. “I stopped keeping my dose low out of fear for e2 symptoms and now I feel better than ever”.
When you sit down and realize the evidence points in the direction of e2 is healthy and there is zero evidence showing e2 is harmful. There is no option b. Only in the rarest cases.
The only studies folks share when I bring this argument is of unhealthy men who have issues , and at the same time e2 is high. Never a study of healthy men on trt or natural and e2. It just isn’t available as evidence to backup what you suggest.
Consider everything e2 related is bro science: why? Because there is zero literature to support the control of estrogen.
Does that help? I’m not trying to just pick a side and Danny is not either. It’s just the truth. Simple. Straight forward. Facts.
60-91 these men are prone to die any day anyways. Natural death occurs in the absence or prescrnce of trt and healthy levels. Go find a study of men between 60-91 and see how many have cv issues with normal BF, good insulin, just overall good health.
It’s like saying “majority of cars over 200k miles need repairs “ and then they go and say it’s because of viscosity of oil. Synthetic not as much . Regardless all cars over 200k are ready to go into the junk yard anyways. Bad
@systemlord and @hardartery, you guys are very passionate about this subject. I’ll throw one out there. PM me on FB. We’ll exchange numbers. I’ll call you, you call me, whatever. I can shed way more light on this stuff in a conversation. The invitation is open to the both of you.
The other one was specifically TRT men, and concluded that the relationship of T to free E2 was really more consequential than absolute numbers. There is a realistic limit for things, and running around with supraphysiological levels just to maintain balance is not really well advised. It is probably advantageous for some to achieve balance by simply reducing dose. How that is achieved is individual. Daily dosing is one way to control balance, reduced dosing is another, AI use is another. Personally, I think that AI use should be last resort and in almost all cases is unnecessary. The problem is, how much don’t we know? The difference between what we “knew” in the 90’s and 2000’s and what we “know” now is pretty vast. If we discover that there is an absolute to to E2 and sending time above it causes some serious problem 10 years down the road, I do not want to be the guy that was unshakeably insistent and convinced other eole not to think for themselves on it.
I’m trying to help the OP with his problem, and this is a thoroughly hijacked thread. Fact is, most people on TRT are not us, and we are not them. I am certainly not representative of the population at large, so I cannot really project my circumstances onto theirs. Metformin, for instance, causes a very real disruption to my system resulting in hyocalcemia. That could actually kill me, and not in a pleasant way. Chances are, no one else on here has that problem. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist just because almost every representative group possible will not experience that problem. We have to evaluate ALL of the information available and try to help other people do that. Jumping u and down on a soapbox is just grandstanding, it’s not helpful.
This is like saying we may discover one day that drinking more than three glasses of water a day is not recommended.
I’ll keep drinking my water. If you want to dehydrate yourself, even in the slightest, based on an irrational fear (because there is no evidence based literature to support that fear) then by all means… Knock yourself out 
Find me ONE study where they gave testosterone and it caused harm. Or they raised E2 and it caused harm. There are none. It has never been demonstrated. Yet you’re afraid of something that you have literally no reason to do. Is this not the very definition of irrational?
I don’t consider this a thread hijack. Someone mentioned that the OP may be having issues because his E2 is too high. This is not evidence based.
Elevated E2 has been found to be harmful in multilpe studies posted here. You want to dismiss or ignore them because they disagree with your theory. That’s your call. I’m not telling you what to believe, it has no impact on me or what I do. I exect that ratio is the most important thing, and I am unwilling to state unequivocally that there is no upward limit for E, because there probably is, things tend to work that way. That doesn’t mean that there is some “sweet spot” in the lab ranges, it just means suer high E2 is robably not a great idea, and neither is super low. If slightly elevated E2 is going to shorten my life, but make it better, that’s a fair trade. As it stands, I don’t believe that my E2 gets anywhere near the threshold so it doesn’t matter.
“Elevated E2 has been found to be harmful in multiple studies posted here.”
Show me those studies and I’ll explain to you exactly what is wrong with them in a way you couldn’t possibly disagree with.
100 men had high E2 and low testosterone. Virtually all had ED. Therefore, ED is associated with high E2.
No! It’s not! What kind of man would have low T and high E2? Think about it. Obese men. Obese men would also have cardiovascular disease, diabetes, etc etc. That’s what causes the ED. Not the E2. When we give these men testosterone their E2 rises and then what happens? They improve drastically. So why is it that now their E2 is even higher but they improve? Do you not see how ridiculous some of these studies are?
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I will have a conversation with any of you anytime should you wish to. I can’t spend my days typing in this place. When I do webcasts to things that are relevant to this subject I’ll post them here. I’m easy to find online if you want to have a chat.