Antinatalism -- The Immorality of Procreation

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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Purportedly one can easily end suffering through suicide. However this is a permanent solution of which takes away the prospect of further life experience. Suicide (or even failed attempts and self harm) can have devastating consequences regarding familial dynamics and relationships that many don’t think of prior to the act. It isn’t only the depressed individual who is affected by these actions, but also those around him/her.

Those within a depressive headspace generally don’t think rationally, thus they may dismiss the prospect of downstream ramifications associated with various actions.

Aside from extreme scenarios (i.e you’ve been diagnosed with ALS, you’re already at the middle stage and don’t wish to live in hospital on mechanical ventilation. The family members watching you deteriorate in hospital whilst you can’t talk may equate to more suffering as opposed to assisted euthanasia) suicide isn’t a good answer. There’s almost always something worth living for.

Have you tried seeing a pain specialist (as I’ve mentioned above). Seeing one regularly has made the difference between me not wanting to get out of bed vs graduating school with decent grades, going to college, working and living independently.

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I’m surprised someone with such an outlook on life would wind up on a fitness forum.

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What is your occupation/how do you support yourself? I’m guessing that you’re into real estate.

Yep, it’s Zep:

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Yes, but being realistic, the quality of my future life experience is going to be miserable, given my degenerative disease and chronic tendinopathies that won’t heal despite PT. I felt suicidal at 17, but didn’t go through with it (also didn’t have the balls to do it, same as now) partly because I thought the next decade might be better. Well, turns out life has gotten worse.

While its true my suicide would cause my parents trauma, I don’t feel I owe them anything given that they imposed this life of suffering and death upon me for their own selfish ends. Life is an imposition to be suffered through, not a gift to be grateful for.

There’s evidence that depressives see the world more clearly than normal people. Its callled depressive realism. Here’s a good article on it:

Have you tried seeing a pain specialist

I haven’t. What have they done for you?

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I used to drive a semi. Been unemployed for a while now.

Are you going to debate the topic here, or are you just going to keep deflecting, you cowardly fuck?

Has anyone here tried hanging themselves? How bad does it hurt?

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I don’t believe this is true for everyone. I don’t want to die but don’t fear death either. Maybe it’s my faith, maybe something else, I don’t know.

My wife (who is only slightly older than you at 34) deals with debilitating pain as well. She has arthritis and fibromyalgia (which all but the heaviest pain killers won’t touch) and we suspect lupus (getting doctors to test for that is a huge pain).Her outlook is polar opposite of yours. She does her best to let pain not slow her down and is in fact in law school right now. I know it affects more than she lets others see, and some days she has to sleep a lot.

You used to drive truck, I can see how that would aggravate your issues with all the bumpiness. Perhaps find a new career that doesn’t involve that or go back to school and study something you are passionate about (maybe a field where you can help others in pain). First though, talk to a therapist.

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109

Come on man… Let’s keep it relatively friendly

Seek help… Please, talk to a psychiatrist, there are ways one can find help! Send me an email if you need to vent. I don’t mind talking

They created a holistic approach/program of which was pragmatic and efficient enough to allow me to trudge on ahead. I will never live a normal life, but with regular exercise (even powerlifting!), Physiotherapy, regular therapy and medication I’ve managed to create for myself a life worth living.

Sure, I have to take strong painkillers fairly regularly; though used appropriately many of the negative effects associated with chronic use can be mitigated. Much of the hysteria going on surrounding opiates is steeped in sensationalism and sociopolitical agendas. Taking a painkiller 2-3x/wk to manage severe pain isn’t the end of the world.

Sometime’s when things are really bad I use them daily (as my script allows for use as often as 2x/day). I’ve never had an issue with dependence/tolerance, though everyone is different. Those who like the initial euphoric rush and turn to using painkillers as a coping mechanism are the ones who will become addicted.

There are other avenues to help decrease pain, opiates should always be a last resort. Depending on the conditions at hand various medicinal approaches can be implemented.

Corticosteroids, prescription grade NSAIDS, anticonvulsants, muscle relaxants, opiates, ketamine infusions, antidepressants and more are tools within the realm of pain management that can make life easier for you.

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110

Can she still get a script for painkillers with the opiate crackdowns going on? I’ve found I have to go to the doc (not pain specialist) to get a new script for every TWENTY tablets I take! In which I’m treated like a criminal/drug addict because I’m young and thus theoretically shouldn’t have pain.

I’ve had chronic, frequently borderline incapacitating pain since the age of around 13-14… It’s on my file. What could they possibly think, that I’ve faked being in pain for seven years just so I could get a script for pain meds years down the line?

That totally makes sense.

The pendulum originally swung towards the direction of treating pain as leaving patients to suffer was considered inhumane. Following misinformation from Purdue, rampant over prescribing and subsequent scripts making it to the street people became dependent/starting abusing these medications within various environments.

With our draconian stance on addiction, incarceration rates went up, overdose rates went up and rates of addiction skyrocketed. To compensate for this, apparently the pendulum must swing back further back as to cut off everyone, even those who legitimately require narcotic pain medication to live a normal life, go to work, pay the bills, play with their children and the likes.

Now a large demographic of otherwise law abiding citizens are barred from access to the meds they need to live a normal life; and what happens when someone dependent on a medication to life a normal life is suddenly cut off? Many turn to the street, and as a result become full blown addicts as use can no longer be supervised.

The opiate crackdown has failed to even put a slight dent in the issue at hand. We didn’t even have an opiate epidemic in Aus, rather the issue has become politicised.

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111

She doesn’t want to take them yet since she is afraid her tolerance will build up. The fibro runs in her family. Her grandmother (87) takes large amounts tramidol a day just to make it through each day. However, she is the toughest old lady I know.
I know her grandmother can now only get a 30 day script (in Illinois) when she used to get 90 days. She had been on this medicine for over 20 years now.

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Think about this logically. I presume your parents love you, as most do. They brought you into this world as they wished to bear a child and nurture said child; thus creating a home environment optimal for you to thrive.

I highly doubt they were aware you’d be afflicted by numerous medical ailments of which would lead to debilitating pain down the line. How is this their fault?

I’ve thought about this rationale and my parents. As both of my parents were nearly infertile I was an IVF baby. With this I was born (alongside my twin, fraternal) nearly three months early and almost died outside and inside of the womb. Chances are we wouldn’t make it, yet we did.

Prior to this my parents were warned “don’t have kids, there is a high chance of complications”

For this, I actually did at times in the past blame my parents for the medical ailments I’ve been afflicted with. It took them years and years and years to get pregnant. THIS is a sign “it wasn’t meant to be”

As specified, I’ve THOUGHT about this rationale yet came to the conclusion no one is at fault for my ailments. My parents admittedly took a risk, and perhaps they should have gone down a different avenue in relation to having children, but there was no certainty I’d turn out the way I did. At the same time, I’m alive, my cognitive faculties are in tact and I am able to lead a life I deem adequate. I don’t need much, just give me the ability to exercise to extreme margins and I’m content.

Yes, there are still times wherein I absolutely dislike my life; as there are cumulative shit sandwhiches I live with on a daily basis of which make things very difficult. But despite all of this, I’m happy to be alive. I’m financially stable, my family loves/cares about me, I have something to work towards (college degree, developing an aesthetic physique etc). I do partake in high risk behaviour (like bodybuilding, skiing down rough slopes when I get the chance despite rarely skiing, water skiing with no prior experience, dirt biking etc) at times because I tend to live for the moment.

There’s no telling how much worse (or better) things might be for me down the line, so I take things one day at a time and try to enjoy whatever it is that I have in the moment. I’m not a “happy man”, though I’m much better than I was when I was living with uncontrolled pain 24/7.

If I am ever to have kids (provided I can in the first place) there is not a chance I’ll be passing on my genetic material… Adoption all the way

I never built up a tolerance. When I do take them I’ve consistently used the same dose for almost three years now. It boils down to the frequency of use and perhaps genetics

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It can’t be any worse than reading this thread.

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114

I feel like this is not just your belief.

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glad to know that there are others who agree with me :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

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Have you considered the possibility that is only because you are a derelict?

@fbc91, when is the last time you called someone a derelict? Do you feel a strong urge to call me that?

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117

tenor

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That’s how we all felt the first time he(Zep, Ed, @fbc91) called someone that.

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A what?

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Read and learn:
https://aeon.co/amp/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming-its-immoral

Watch and learn:

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Okay, I read the link to try and see where you are coming from. The author presents little evidence and is more just trying to make a persuasive argument. My favorite part is this:

“More than 63 billion terrestrial animals and, by very conservative estimates, more than 103 billion aquatic animals are killed for human consumption every year . The amount of death and suffering is simply staggering.

If any other species caused as much damage as humans do, we would think it wrong to breed new members of that species

All this is caused by the human appetite for animal flesh and products, an appetite shared by the great majority of humans. Using very conservative estimates, every human (who is not a vegetarian or vegan) is, on average, responsible for the death of 27 animals per year, or 1,690 animals over the course of a lifetime.”

I don’t see the issue with this. Humans are near the top of the food chain therefore we eat mostly everything. By his argument sharks should not exist because they likely eat more than 27 other animals per year. The logic is equating animal suffering to human suffering which I believe is a fallacy.

I agree with his premise that humans tend to do more harm to the environment than help, but there is no reason this would not eventually change. I don’t think anyone ever said life is or should be problem free. In fact most religions consider life suffering, but that is only because it is compared to a possibly theoretical utopian future (heaven, nirvana, etc…).

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Something to keep in mind with this, is those animals would mostly not exist if we didn’t eat them. If their lives are more positive than negative, I don’t see an issue. I do think that is optimistic though. Meaning I think domestic animals should be treated better. We should strive to make their lives as good as possible ( within practical limits) while they are alive.